TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Lancer]

What sorcery is this? This tweet right after this conversation!
(No official source or reason for slashing squadron strength by retiring upgraded & usable 4+gen jets before 2035... Any one of you aint the admin of that page broadcasting your opinion as IAF's plan, right?)



Let your favourite "proven jets" first prove that they can take off with enough combat load from sky-jump, the main handicap of Mig-29K.
No CATOBAR for fundcrunched Indian Navy.

And the order size for TEDBF can vary from 100 to 150, depending on weather India settles for 2 carriers or get another 50k ton class STOBAR.

Let your alternate solution first come off paper, and while we're at it, try mass producing MK1A's first before making your 100-150 planes that are better than Rafales and F-18's.

 

[Bleh]

To win a war we need superior technology than your adversaries , we saw what happened in Feb 27 We lost our Mig 21 , we can say 10 Fighters against 24 fighters , yes that's true , but that's not the case F16 is Inferior to MKI s, feb 27 proved we have a lot of vulnerabilities , an enemy strike our vulnerabilities . Chinese Airforce slightly more advanced than us and a outnumbered us 2:1 .

One. Major threat for us is if we ever engage with China slave Porks will immediately get into action . In the very first week of war almost all advanced technologies will be destroyed by swarms of missiles , We will turn into old tactics , where quantity & Abilities of individual platform is more important.

Very good , then how We lost Mig 21 . Even the Malaysian Su 30s have MSWS , none of our Aircraft have MSWS one of the major reason. Shot down of Mig 21 it lacks MSWS . This kind of excuses won't help us to win .We suffered against Inferior PAF , that's a reality . We Defended well with what we have, but the question is how long

We already have comparable tech with our prime adversary and with continue to edge towards superior as next decade passes... whatever superficial edge Pakis managed to achieve was by numbers. That was due to IAF's self satisfied overconfidence, due to which there was no SAMs or extra Mig-29 squadrons waiting for their very predictable retaliatory move. Just like they managed to miss a dozen SOMs and half dozen BVRs (due to pilot incompetence, not tech restrictions).
You also used the example of a vintage jet with RoE restrictions stopping it from launching BVRs before engaging in WVR.

Remove those logical fallacies and contradicting assumptions (like all 4++ jets will be gone quickly despite actually having EW) then think. You will see prematurely retiring capable jets and cancelling intermediate projects aint the answer.

Anyways this is getting very repeatative and completely off-topic.

Let your alternate solution first come off paper, and while we're at it, try mass producing MK1A's first before making your 100-150 planes that are better than Rafales and F-18's.

Yes, we both are speculating possibilities at this point.

[--Mod Edit: Don't name call other members --]

 

[Karthi]

We already have comparable tech with our prime adversary and with continue to edge towards superior as next decade passes... whatever superficial edge Pakis managed to achieve was by numbers. That was due to IAF's self satisfied overconfidence, due to which there was no SAMs or extra Mig-29 squadrons waiting for the very predictable retaliatory move. Just like they manage to miss a dozen SOMs and half dozen BVRs (but that was due to pilot incompetence, not tech restrictions).
You also used the example of a vintage jet with RoE restrictions stopping it from launching BVRs before engaging in WVR.

Remove those logical fallacies and contradicting assumptions (like all 4++ jets will be gone quickly despite actually having EW) you will see prematurely retiring capable jets and cancelling intermediate projects aint the answer.

Anyways this is getting very repeatative and completely off-topic.


Yes, we both are speculating possibilities at this point (but if you are here to only shill F-18 for India, then just make yours posts and be done with it).

Over confidence may be , HAL developed SDR in 2010 none of our Aircraft have this even today . I have posted it in Tejas thread . If we have SDR AWACS can directly send Info to Aircrafts , now AWACS sending Info to ground stations and then to Aircrafts . F16 fired at Mig 21 at 12 Km or so why we failed to alert Abhi about this , may be the communication jammed , What happened to his EW suite F16 used aim120C which is RF I think . These are questions we need to address .


A superior technology driven Military us the only option in Winning a future war

 

[Bleh]

But my original comment was not addressed to you, so mind your own business.

You comment was based on fundamental logical fallacy, that I took the liberty to address in an open forum.

That is unless F-18/RafaleM can demonstrate their capability to takeoff sky-jumps, your speculated solution is as "hitherto imaginery" as ORCA concept (which actually have higher chances of materializing from MWF despite our present manufacturing/funds limitations, l than them to drastically redesign F-18 or completely reengine Rafale).

I hope the Navy isn't banking on the (hitherto imaginary) as its single point solution for the N-MMRCA. You need a truly high caliber, and proven jet for that category. Should either go with F-18's (w/ EW packages) or another ~60 Rafale's (M) tacked onto the IAF order for economies of scale.

 

[Lancer]

You comment was based on fundamental logical fallacy, that I took the liberty to address in an open forum.

That is unless F-18/RafaleM can demonstrate their capability to takeoff sky-jumps, your speculated solution is as "hitherto imaginery" as ORCA concept (which actually have higher chances of materializing from MWF, than a drastically redesigned F-18 or reengined Rafale).

[-- Mod Edit: Lay off the personal attacks --]

Two well established, well respected aviation companies from countries with actual strong histories/industries building fighter aircraft vs. India which still isn't mass producing the MK1A (which was a time saving compromise in the first place) with the ORCA literally being nothing more than a paper plane.

I'm supposed to believe that companies like Boeing (which is planning on conducting ski jump trials for this very purpose) and Dassault can't find a solution to a problem they'd already be aware of (considering this contest is old, the requirements were public, and they still willingly entered their fighters in the competition). But India will somehow beat them to the punch and create a superior Carrier based MMRCA in just a few years.

But apparently having common sense, and not drinking the "we can magically make everything overnight" Kool Aid makes one a foreign shill

[-- Edited Out --]

 

[Bleh]

Over confidence may be , HAL developed SDR in 2010 none of our Aircraft have this even today . I have posted it in Tejas thread . If we have SDR AWACS can directly send Info to Aircrafts , now AWACS sending Info to ground stations and then to Aircrafts . F16 fired at Mig 21 at 12 Km or so why we failed to alert Abhi about this , may be the communication jammed , What happened to his EW suite F16 used aim120C which is RF I think . These are questions we need to address .

A superior technology driven Military us the only option in Winning a future war

So yeah dude, bad planning and funding management.

That cannot be overcome by even more bad planning and fund management. Read my last post again... what I meant was, numbers are still as important as technological superiority. That was demonstrated by Pakis on 27thFeb by concentrating inferior jets in larger numbers.
Let MWF, AMCA, ORCA come at their own time. And let Mig21 or Jags be retired by 2035... But you cannot afford to prematurely retire Mirage-2000I and Mig-29UPG that would still perfectly outclass half of Chinky or Paki AF!

Actually this makes me a bit concerned that you maybe right.
Great news for AMCA, will guarantee ORCA from TEDBF. But he didn't reject his claim of squadron strength possibily falling again... WHICH IS FUCKING CONCERNING!!!

I'm supposed to believe that companies like Boeing (which is planning on conducting ski jump trials for this very purpose) and Dassault can't find a solution to a problem they'd already be aware of (considering this contest is old, the requirements were public, and they still willingly entered their fighters in the competition). But India will somehow beat them to the punch and create a superior Carrier based MMRCA in just a few years.

No, existing F-18 or Rafale cant, unless they demonstrate otherwise (we'll see if/when that happens).

Yes, it's not about the inferiority complex. USA can do it if they enlarge F-18 Wing Area. France can do it if Rafale was powered by F-18's engines... Will they? Possibly not.

That's what ORCA concept attempts, nothing too undoable, but needs onlt be completely tailor-made for Naval sky-jump ops.
Our present manufacturing limitations are because of the same reason ORCA is needed. Fund crunch. If we could afford a 65k ton CATOBAR then importing either would have been better option.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Very good , then how We lost Mig 21 . Even the Malaysian Su 30s have MSWS , none of our Aircraft have MSWS one of the major reason. Shot down of Mig 21 it lacks MSWS . This kind of excuses won't help us to win .We suffered against Inferior PAF , that's a reality . We Defended well with what we have, but the question is how long

MiG-21 was shot down because it didn't carried EL8222 self protection jammer,as per older trend across the world,one of the two fighter flying in the formation carries the jammer,not every. Why not other mig21 was shot which was the wingman of the wing commander while he too crossed the loc,MiG-21 was shot when it broke the formation with its wingman...PAF has no alternative other than the AMRAAM which failed miserably on the other aircrafts. Maws is an important bet but it is more important for the Aircrafts which perform deep penetration strikes,for AMRAAM like situation one needs highly sensitive RWR,SPJ,and active decoy system,mig lacked the last too....

 

[Steven Rogers]

Over confidence may be , HAL developed SDR in 2010 none of our Aircraft have this even today . I have posted it in Tejas thread . If we have SDR AWACS can directly send Info to Aircrafts , now AWACS sending Info to ground stations and then to Aircrafts . F16 fired at Mig 21 at 12 Km or so why we failed to alert Abhi about this , may be the communication jammed , What happened to his EW suite F16 used aim120C which is RF I think . These are questions we need to address .


A superior technology driven Military us the only option in Winning a future war

That mig had no Self protection jammer ...

 

[Karthi]

MiG-21 was shot down because it didn't carried EL8222 self protection jammer,as per older trend across the world,one of the two fighter flying in the formation carries the jammer,not every. Why not other mig21 was shot which was the wingman of the wing commander while he too crossed the loc,MiG-21 was shot when it broke the formation with its wingman...PAF has no alternative other than the AMRAAM which failed miserably on the other aircrafts. Maws is an important bet but it is more important for the Aircrafts which perform deep penetration strikes,for AMRAAM like situation one needs highly sensitive RWR,SPJ,and active decoy system,mig lacked the last too....

Yes , you said it , an inferior system always in danger , so we need ORCA . Pak will get Chinese PL 15 , again our Inferior platforms are going to be in danger. Sometimes it's difficult to stick with your Wingman

 

[Steven Rogers]

Yes , you said it , an inferior system always in danger , so we need ORCA . Pak will get Chinese PL 15 , again our Inferior platforms are going to be in danger. Sometimes it's difficult to stick with your Wingman

Sorry but PL15 is a try from China to match AIM120D AMRAAM of the US,and that's too with inferior technology...it either has the Russian seeker or the older Chinese seeker ...the day Pakistan gets PL15 we will be operating Meteor much before than them..and in future SFDR based BVR with aesa seeker,or Astra mk2 with the aesa seeker.

 

[Karthi]

Sorry but PL15 is a try from China to match AIM120D AMRAAM of the US,and that's too with inferior technology...it either has the Russian seeker or the older Chinese seeker ...the day Pakistan gets PL15 we will be operating Meteor much before than them..and in future SFDR based BVR with aesa seeker,or Astra mk2 with the aesa seeker.

Don't underestimate Enemy , PL 15 is a good Missile , if it fired in salvo it can be dangerous.


More over in any Prolonged war manufacturing of Weapons for Airforce, Navy and Army matters more , our Aerial assets will be shoot down by our enemies In few Weeks , We need to fill the gap by producing more and more Aircrafts . We all know Chinese producing Aircrafts and Ships at an incredible speed , to win future we need to Indigenous our Weapons as much as possible , so that we can mass produce it whenever there is an emergency .

So we need ORCA , our members should spread this among peoples , cos in a democratic country government need peoples support. And there are chances that these ideas may be noticed by our pilots , scientists , journalists etc so every member of our forum should post these things in your Tweets and FB posts etc .

 

[Anikastha]

I hope the Navy isn't banking on the (hitherto imaginary) as its single point solution for the N-MMRCA. You need a truly high caliber, and proven jet for that category. Should either go with F-18's (w/ EW packages) or another ~60 Rafale's (M) tacked onto the IAF order for economies of scale.

rafales r too costly.....f18 is best option to consider for navy......

 

[Lancer]

rafales r too costly.....f18 is best option to consider for navy......

That, and earlier, either you or someone else mentioned that the Growler package w/ the F-18's would be an excellent addition - giving it the edge over the Rafale for the Naval tender.

 

[Anikastha]

That, and earlier, either you or someone else mentioned that the Growler package w/ the F-18's would be an excellent addition - giving it the edge over the Rafale for the Naval tender.

not me.... But yes someone did mentioned about growler package....

 

[Flying Dagger]

not me.... But yes someone did mentioned about growler package....

Yes it's on offer But now I think gov may wait longer for mk2 and orca /naval version route. Economy is down and will not recover soon couple of years will be required to get things normal. Rafale for airforce might be the only deal which will go through.

 

[Kchontha]

Which airforce has better bvraam, paf or iaf just before recent areal tussle? That should be the question we should ask. If Tedbf fructify then let's say bye bye to Rafale m or f18. Rafale m does not have foldable wing while f18 hasn't demonstrated ski jump takeoff and Indian iac was not designed to house these aircrafts so tedbf is the best option the Indian Navy has despite mig29k.

 

[Bleh]

 

[Karthi]

After COVID it will be little bit difficult to find money for MMRCA 2 . So an opportunity for ORCA . 83 Mk 1A , 36 more Rafale and after the completion of MK 1 delivery , we can manufacture ORCA if we plan accordingly

 

[Bleh]

View attachment 47694

Dafuq you pasted this for? Lol

 

[Lancer]

View attachment 47694


After COVID it will be little bit difficult to find money for MMRCA 2 . So an opportunity for ORCA . 83 Mk 1A , 36 more Rafale and after the completion of MK 1 delivery , we can manufacture ORCA if we plan accordingly

Lately I've seen some posts on here, twitter and other places capping LCA MK1A numbers at 123. I don't see how India can go for so few of them considering the sheer numbers of MiG-21's retired. Even if you assume that all of the MiG-27's & Jaguars used for CAS will be replaced exclusively by ORCAs.

A large number of MK1A's will still be needed for interception and CAP's. MK1A's hold the key to being able to afford a bigger IAF (as per projected squadron strength requirements).