TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Steven Rogers]

[

We're saying the same thing, more ir less.

But I brought that up because some other people here are remarking how ORCA is pointless, or how its a waste of money... And what not. For them:

• Because AMCA design wont allowed it to carry no/barely more payload than MWF with half its engine power! ORCA will be its bigger iteration with double power (astronomically more likely to emulate Rafale than ET, I trust you agree).
• Because stealth has its uses and situations, so does MTOW of bomb trucks. And proper EW offers just as much protection as stealth.
• Because if we don't fuck it up ORCA would be our Sukhoi-30 replacement but much more reliable, maintainable, available, compatible!

To begin with ORCA,Air force has to drop MMRCA 2.0.

 

[Bleh]

To begin with ORCA, Air force has to drop MMRCA 2.0.

Maybe. I doubt we can afford 114 of those (in previous posts).

Maybe not, if its meant to augment Su-30 and replace them post 2040... without plummeting squadron IAF's strength again.
If work on TEDBF starts right after MWF then it should be available for induction by 2030. ORCA would be ready 2-3 years after that.

 

[Karthi]

By 2030 IAF will phase out 91 Jaguars, 41 Mirage2000s, 66 MiG-29Ks and 112 MiG-21s that are in service. This totals to 310. In this same Period we will acquire 36 Rafales and 83 mk1A Tejas , 24 mk1s plus 60-70 MWF Which totals 240-250..


To maintain the squadron strength as that of today we are calling short of 100 fighters and that too our current numbers are low.

HAL AMCA and FGFA production won't start until 2035.


We already developing TEDBF we can turn into IAF configuration without much delay . It's less complicated than AMCA , and can manufacture faster rates .

We need 42 Squadrons ie 800-850 Aircrafts

 

[Karthi]

[

To begin with ORCA,Air force has to drop MMRCA 2.0.

Drop Mk1A

 

[Bleh]

By 2030 IAF will phase out 91 Jaguars, 41 Mirage2000s, 66 MiG-29Ks and 112 MiG-21s that are in service.

The older Migs and Jags, yes.

But at the turn of this century, Mig-21 were supposed to be retired by 2010, they are still here. IAF won't drop perfectly usable, recently upgraded Mig-29s and Mirage-2000 just because you think that should happen (for some reason). Last of them can expected be around till 2035 to 2040.

Drop Mk1A

You said this earlier, several times... I don't know what issue you have with Mark1A (because you never mentioned your reason for saying it) but we won't reach ORCA by skipping Mark1A (or MWF after that, as one bright mind already brought up last year).

You post about R&D and tech! You of all people should understand that.

 

[Karthi]

From 2030 maybe.

At the turn of this century, Mig-21 were supposed to be retired by 2010, they are still here. IAF won't drop perfectly usable, recently upgraded Mig-29s and Mirage-2000 just because you want them to (for some reason). Last of them can expected be around till 2035 to 2040.



You said this earlier, several times... I don't know what issue you have with Mark1A (because you never mentioned your reason for saying it) but we won't reach ORCA by skipping Mark1A (or MWF after that, as one bright mind already brought up last year).

Obviously to save Money for ORCA , Mk1A is not much better than MK1 in aerodynamics , We can upgrade Mk1 later by incorporating MWF avionics . MWF got superior Aerodynamics than Mk1A , ORCA with Twin Engine and Canard can Streamline for Super Cruise so basically I want MWF than MK1A , MJ1A slightly better than Jf17 but a slight advantage is not decisive but MWF will have a decisive advantage over JF17 . ORCA a Rafale+ for counter ing Chinese aircrafts. Most importantly it is indigenous i don't want a MMRCA 3.0

 

[Defcon 1]

F-414 EPE maybe (maybe not), but no better than that.

Loaded F-35 too faces similar issues, has to take off STOBAR with vertical lift-fan, or else needs CATOBAR. With ASM it is as unstealthy as Mig-29K so any attempt to stealth in Naval jets remains a waste of money!

And a design with twin PW1000 (not that we have access to that) would need a whole new jet sized like Su-33, which itself is a failure even though Chink STOBAR carriers have much longer runway.

Nope, TEDBF is the only good option!
I have thought of every other practical possibility, only other scenario is if RafaleM demonstrates sky-jump worthiness with combat load and Navy buys those instead. That too quite unlikely, as RafaleM have almost 40kN less wet thrust than ORCA will.

(And while only valid criticism would be a navy tailor-made concept with limited export potential, maynot be necessary for 2-3 carriers of India, it still may see near 150 units ordered by India alone).

Actually F35 will be carrying anti ship missiles in its internal bays, so its stealth won't be comprised. we can also develop a custom version of Nirbhay/brahmos ng to fit in internal bays of AMCA

Its a strange comment to make that navy doesn't care about stealth considering both US and China are working on stealth naval jets. If stealth didn't provide any advantages for naval aircraft, projects like NATF and F35C would never had been started

 

[Defcon 1]

Obviously to save Money for ORCA , Mk1A is not much better than MK1 in aerodynamics , We can upgrade Mk1 later by incorporating MWF avionics . MWF got superior Aerodynamics than Mk1A , ORCA with Twin Engine and Canard can Streamline for Super Cruise so basically I want MWF than MK1A , MJ1A slightly better than Jf17 but a slight advantage is not decisive but MWF will have a decisive advantage over JF17 . ORCA a Rafale+ for counter ing Chinese aircrafts. Most importantly it is indigenous i don't want a MMRCA 3.0

Mk1A is the only shot tejas project has at a continuous production line. This alone is enough to buy mk1a. If you remove mk1a, tejas project will go the Arjun way

 

[Bleh]

We can upgrade Mk1 later by incorporating MWF avionics .

Mark 1A is basically that though... Just some stuff like Uttam AESA or fully integrated EW isn't operational yet, so it gets imported alternatives.

MMRCA actually may harm ORCA the most, by buget and otherwise.

Actually F35 will be carrying anti ship missiles in its internal bays, so its stealth won't be comprised. we can also develop a custom version of Nirbhay/brahmos ng to fit in internal bays of AMCA

Its a strange comment to make that navy doesn't care about stealth considering both US and China are working on stealth naval jets. If stealth didn't provide any advantages for naval aircraft, projects like NATF and F35C would never had been started

I said what I myself had to say on stealth in last few posts.

Rest I was repeating what HVT said on Navy's TEDBF demands. That carrier groups are easy to track 24/7 - Indian sky-jump carrier launch limited range jets - Even range from tankers would be easy to predict - Unlike IAF they need to carry large standoff weapons that hamper stealth.
Separate scenario, requirements, tech availability than US/PLAN nor is their new concept battle proven unlike Israeli F-35s. As of yet F-18 is still US workhorse, Chinese Su-33 clones can takeoff with only 4 AAMs.

 

[Steven Rogers]

By 2030 IAF will phase out 91 Jaguars, 41 Mirage2000s, 66 MiG-29Ks and 112 MiG-21s that are in service. This totals to 310. In this same Period we will acquire 36 Rafales and 83 mk1A Tejas , 24 mk1s plus 60-70 MWF Which totals 240-250..


To maintain the squadron strength as that of today we are calling short of 100 fighters and that too our current numbers are low.

HAL AMCA and FGFA production won't start until 2035.


We already developing TEDBF we can turn into IAF configuration without much delay . It's less complicated than AMCA , and can manufacture faster rates .

We need 42 Squadrons ie 800-850 Aircrafts

Doubtful,mig29s mirages and Jaguar Darin III will serve as late as 2035 for the airforce...AMCA MK1 will be produced in the same period like the today's Tejas mk1...

 

[Lancer]

This was obvious no one developes a new jet just for 57 orders. Either navy will commission 150 tedbf at once or airforce will pitch in with orca . A volume of 150-200 jets is required to recoup investment.

I hope the Navy isn't banking on the (hitherto imaginary) as its single point solution for the N-MMRCA. You need a truly high caliber, and proven jet for that category. Should either go with F-18's (w/ EW packages) or another ~60 Rafale's (M) tacked onto the IAF order for economies of scale.

 

[Bleh]

By 2030 IAF will phase out 91 Jaguars, 41 Mirage2000s, 66 MiG-29Ks and 112 MiG-21s that are in service. This totals to 310. In this same Period we will acquire 36 Rafales and 83 mk1A Tejas , 24 mk1s plus 60-70 MWF Which totals 240-250..


To maintain the squadron strength as that of today we are calling short of 100 fighters and that too our current numbers are low.

HAL AMCA and FGFA production won't start until 2035.


We already developing TEDBF we can turn into IAF configuration without much delay . It's less complicated than AMCA , and can manufacture faster rates .

We need 42 Squadrons ie 800-850 Aircrafts

Doubtful,mig29s mirages and Jaguar Darin III will serve as late as 2035 for the airforce...AMCA MK1 will be produced in the same period like the today's Tejas mk1...

What sorcery is this? This tweet right after this conversation!
(No official source or reason for slashing squadron strength by retiring upgraded & usable 4+gen jets before 2035... Any one of you aint the admin of that page broadcasting your opinion as IAF's plan, right?)

You need a truly high caliber, and proven jet for that category. Should either go with F-18's (w/ EW packages) or another ~60 Rafale's (M) tacked onto the IAF order for economies of scale.

Let your favourite "proven jets" first prove that they can take off with enough combat load from sky-jump, the main handicap of Mig-29K.
No CATOBAR for fundcrunched Indian Navy.

And the order size for TEDBF can vary from 100 to 150, depending on weather India settles for 2 carriers or get another 50k ton class STOBAR.

 

[Steven Rogers]

What sorcery is this? Right after this conversation!
(No official source or reason for slashing squadron strength by retiring upgraded & usable jets though... Any one of you aint the admin of that page pushing your opinion as IAF's plan, right?)


Let your favourite "proven jets" first prove that they can take off with enough combat load from sky-jump, the main issue with Mig-29K.
No CATOBAR for Indian Navy.

And the order size for TEDBF can vary from 100 to 150, depending on weather India satellite for 2 April careers for get another 50k ton STOBAR.

Don't know what you're talking about,the best I know is the last Jaguar frames were inducted in the 2000snds and 60 of the DARIN will be operational post 2035,migs and mirages will be operational till 2035, IAF air Marshal himself said in an article that they are looking to boost numbers by 2032,he mentioned about the upgraded mirage,Mig29,jag,Su30mki,Rafale,Tejas and MWF,and in additional 110 odd MMRCA..

 

[Bleh]

Don't what you're talking about,the best I know is the last Jaguar frames were inducted in the 2000snds and 60 of the DARIN will be operational post 2035,migs and mirages will be operational till 2035, IAF air Marshal himself said in an article that they are looking to boost numbers by 2032,he mentioned about the upgraded mirage,Mig29,jag,Su30mki,Rafale,Tejas and MWF,and in additional 110 odd MMRCA..

That's what I knew too... And that is what would seem like a sensible plan for any sensible person.

Timing of that tweet took me by surprise, I check out that page sometimes. Pretty decent otherwise, but that claim is just preposterous!!

 

[Steven Rogers]

That's what I knew too... And that is what would seem like a sensible plan for any sensible person.

Timing of that tweet took me by surprise, I check out that page sometimes. Pretty decent otherwise, but that claim is just preposterous!!

Who is that guy,he seems pretty decent following on twitter from Boeing india,Sameer Joshi Harshvardhan thakur and others.

 

[Karthi]

What sorcery is this? Right after this conversation!
(No official source or reason for slashing squadron strength by retiring upgraded & usable jets though... Any one of you aint the admin of that page pushing your opinion as IAF's plan, right?)


Let your favourite "proven jets" first prove that they can take off with enough combat load from sky-jump, the main handicap of Mig-29K.
No CATOBAR for fundcrunched Indian Navy.

And the order size for TEDBF can vary from 100 to 150, depending on weather India settles for 2 carriers or get another 50k ton class STOBAR.

IAF has no choice but to make use of what they have . Jaguar Max Upgrade may be enough for making them stay another 15 Years, but how can we counter Modern Airforce like PLAF using our Upgraded old aircrafts.

Apart from 272 MKI s , and 36 Rafale ,6 Mig 29 Upg what we have to counter PLAF now , how can we defender a wast fleet of J20 and J31 in future . J31 will probably will sea PAF colors or a Stealthy JF 17 in PAF in 2030 how can we counter them .we can't win a war by giving reasons

 

[Bleh]

Who is that guy,he seems pretty decent following on twitter from Boeing india,Sameer Joshi Harshvardhan thakur and others.

Exactly!..

If it were someone else, I would have ignored the bonkers claim. Lets see if one of them reacts to it confirming or denying the claim.

IAF has no choice but to make use of what they have . Jaguar Max Upgrade may be enough for making them stay another 15 Years, but how can we counter Modern Airforce like PLAF using our Upgraded old aircrafts.

Apart from 272 MKI s , and 36 Rafale ,6 Mig 29 Upg what we have to counter PLAF now , how can we defender a wast fleet of J20 and J31 in future . J31 will probably will sea PAF colors or a Stealthy JF 17 in PAF in 2030 how can we counter them .we can't win a war by giving reasons

Well technically Jaguar don't be countering Chinese jets, nor would Tejas FOC.

10 MKI crashed. We have 262 now. 8 more, maybe ordered to bring their numbers back to 270... With 47 Mirages and 83 Mig-29UPG (including possibly coming 21 mothballs with present 62) and 110 Mig-21 is good enough till MWF gets ready for induction.

MMRCA order size indicates they were meant to mostly fill up the gap left by retirement of Mig-21 from 2025 odd (Might crash again leaving us with emergency G2G import, then we'll need MWF even more). MWF will start getting inducted from the same time but to augment numbers.
From 2030 AMCA and ORCA may start coming in the picture, best case scenario.

 

[Karthi]

Exactly!..

If it were someone else, I would have ignored the bonkers claim. Lets see if one of them reacts to it confirming or denying the claim.
Well technically Jaguar don't be countering Chinese jets, nor would Tejas FOC.

10 MKI crashed. We have 262 now. 8 more, maybe ordered to bring their numbers back to 270... With 47 Mirages and 83 Mig-29UPG (including possibly coming 21 mothballs with present 62) and 110 Mig-21 is good enough till MWF gets ready for induction.

MMRCA order size indicates they were meant to mostly fill up the gap left by retirement of Mig-21 from 2025 odd (Might crash again leaving us with emergency G2G import, then we'll need MWF even more). MWF will start getting inducted from the same time but to augment numbers.
From 2030 AMCA and ORCA may start coming in the picture, best case scenario.

To win a war we need superior technology than your adversaries , we saw what happened in Feb 27 We lost our Mig 21 , we can say 10 Fighters against 24 fighters , yes that's true , but that's not the case F16 is Inferior to MKI s, feb 27 proved we have a lot of vulnerabilities , an enemy strike our vulnerabilities . Chinese Airforce slightly more advanced than us and a outnumbered us 2:1 .

One. Major threat for us is if we ever engage with China slave Porks will immediately get into action . In the very first week of war almost all advanced technologies will be destroyed by swarms of missiles , We will turn into old tactics , where quantity & Abilities of individual platform is more important.

 

[Steven Rogers]

To win a war we need superior technology than your adversaries , we saw what happened in Feb 27 We lost our Mig 21 , we can say 10 Fighters against 24 fighters , yes that's true , but that's not the case F16 is Inferior to MKI s, feb 27 proved we have a lot of vulnerabilities , an enemy strike our vulnerabilities . Chinese Airforce slightly more advanced than us and a outnumbered us 2:1 .

One. Major threat for us is if we ever engage with China slave Porks will immediately get into action . In the very first week of war almost all advanced technologies will be destroyed by swarms of missiles , We will turn into old tactics , where quantity & Abilities of individual platform is more important.

What enemy strike vulnerability.. they launched their packages in hurry and had zero hit to the target...they lost 1 f16 in the process to a mig 21,the major vulnerability IAF had,was the absence of MRSAM/LRSAM which could been used against the PAF aircrafts before the iaf vectored her aircraft against the enemy.No one is talking about the disparity of 8:24 it was the 4 migs which vectored avoiding the radar which lead panic to the PAF packages and they ran away ...have already mentioned the details in the other threads of how IAF enjoys superiority over PLAAF in the western front with facts,and in reality IAF has numbers superiority against Chinese airforce in the real time scenario.

 

[Karthi]

What enemy strike vulnerability.. they launched their packages in hurry and had zero hit to the target...they lost 1 f16 in the process to a mig 2,the major vulnerability IAF had,was the absence of MRSAM/LRSAM which could been used against the PAF aircrafts before the iaf vectored her aircraft against the enemy....have already mentioned the details in the other threads of how IAF enjoys superiority over PLAAF in the western front with facts,and in reality IAF has numbers superiority against Chinese airforce in the real time scenario.

Very good , then how We lost Mig 21 . Even the Malaysian Su 30s have MSWS , none of our Aircraft have MSWS one of the major reason. Shot down of Mig 21 it lacks MSWS . This kind of excuses won't help us to win .We suffered against Inferior PAF , that's a reality . We Defended well with what we have, but the question is how long