TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[abhay rajput]

What's the most optimistic year in which ORCA will enter service?

It will enter service by 2029-2030

 

[nongaddarliberal]

It will enter service by 2029-2030

What about AMCA?

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[Bleh]

I had same question but it is said that this one will cost a lot lower than AMCA. It will have ultra long range...

Amca unless produced in huge numbers will be very very costly . Plus amca will take longer to mature as it requires new engine , stealth shaping , new weapons to fit in internal bays. Orca can be delivered on time thus reducing risks of amca delay. Orca weaponary and avionics will be common with mwf only larger airframe is required.

What about AMCA?

………………………………...

Same timeline... First flight by 2025-26 (if ORCA is sanctioned soon) & induction by 2030.

With same engine, canarded ORCA cannot have longer range than (stealthy) AMCA in mission config.

Something I overlooked;
AMCA has very mediocre aerodynamic design imo. It has small wings & high wing loading, because of which it still has same ordnance payload as single-engined MWF despite itself being twin-engined. It's enough to do stealth strike or BVR sniping but cannot become the workhorse.
ORCA is projected to have comparable payload as Su-30 & internal fuel as Rafale. That may be reason enough for it to have a future in both IN & IAF.

 

[IndianHawk]

Same timeline... First flight by 2025-26 (if ORCA is sanctioned soon) & induction by 2030.

With same engine, canarded ORCA cannot have longer range than (stealthy) AMCA in mission config.

Something I overlooked;
AMCA has very mediocre aerodynamic design imo. It has small wings & high wing loading, because of which it still has same ordnance payload as single-engined MWF despite itself being twin-engined. It's enough to do stealth strike or BVR sniping but cannot become the workhorse.
ORCA is projected to have comparable payload as Su-30 & internal fuel as Rafale. That may be reason enough for it to have a future in both IN & IAF.

You seem to have answered your own question.
Stealth does affect aerodynamics.

But I personally think something more at play with orca/ tedbf .

I think it's dawning upon Indian planners that India will need a much bigger and more potent air force in future to take on China. They are going to need way more new planes than previously realised.

As the giants of USA and China clash India can't be sitting with puny air force that too with lots of legacy systems.

Ideally Indian air force would like to expand to 1000+ fighter jets in future at least . Also orca if comes on time can help in faster retirement of older su30 thus saving opex ( less pilot , less fuel, less maintenance).

123 lca + 200 mwf + 200 orca + 250 amca + 280 su30 + 36 rafale==1089 birds.

Mmrca could add more rafale if 126 added then 1200 fighter jets by 2040.

We need to grow up now. By 2040 Chinese may be fielding 2000+ fighter jets all 4.5 + 5 gen .

We can't be napping with 600-800 fighters.

That is why perhaps mmrca is restarted and all these programs are being approved .

Perhaps finally urgency is dawning upon strategic planners.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I am not talking about weight class. I am talking about capabilities.

It would be more advanced than those both.

 

[cyclops]

Irst will be ahead of cockpit so removing it doesn't free any pylon !! Perhaps you mean removing target pod / sensor pod with eots. That would unnecessarily complicat things for orca which is non stealth and has no dearth of pylons or payload. 12 pylons apart from pod are enough especially with multi rack for aam and bombs.

I meant, the EOTS in the F-35 satisfies both a2a & a2g roles, so if ORCA & TEDBF get an EOTS like system they wouldn't need the IRST(a2a) and the targeting pod(a2g). Hence 13 hardpoints for weapons sans an IRST & a targeting pod.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

It would be more advanced than those both.

Most Probably. It remains to be seen how MKI updates goes on and what capabilities it adds. However, one thing is sure that ORCA is going to be a very capable fighter and match MKI in most of the capability or surpass it.

 

[Bleh]

I called this before. They are developing mwf as mini rafale and now orca as full rafale . Only much cheaper.

But for me, if no tangible transfer happen then this deal must be canceled and money must be spend then on ORCA and k-10.
That will be more useful.

Since an F-35's EOTS-like targeting system is being pursued for AMCA, perhaps it can be used on ORCA first, hence ditching the IRST and sparing a hardpoint for more weaponry.

It will enter service by 2029-2030

I meant, the EOTS in the F-35 satisfies both a2a & a2g roles, so if ORCA & TEDBF get an EOTS like system they wouldn't need the IRST(a2a) and the targeting pod(a2g). Hence 13 hardpoints for weapons sans an IRST & a targeting pod.

However, one thing is sure that ORCA is going to be a very capable fighter and match MKI in most of the capability or surpass it.

Chill out... It's just a proposal, not even on papers yet.

Nothing may happen ultimately.

 

[janme]

Chill out... It's just a proposal, not even on papers yet.

Nothing may happen ultimately.

Exactly, All this is hot air. Remember all threads on LCA Tejas mk3, mk4(containing hundreds of pages of discussion) and what not which have been all deleted now.

 

[IndianHawk]

I meant, the EOTS in the F-35 satisfies both a2a & a2g roles, so if ORCA & TEDBF get an EOTS like system they wouldn't need the IRST(a2a) and the targeting pod(a2g). Hence 13 hardpoints for weapons sans an IRST & a targeting pod.

If eots is ready for amca before orca starts building they may do it. Otherwise additional complexity should be avoided.

 

[IndianHawk]

Most Probably. It remains to be seen how MKI updates goes on and what capabilities it adds. However, one thing is sure that ORCA is going to be a very capable fighter and match MKI in most of the capability or surpass it.

Whatever capabilities su30 adds up can't compensated it's huge rcs which will at increasing disadvantage in future battlefield. Rafale / orca / mwf will have better chances of survival.

 

[IndianHawk]

Chill out... It's just a proposal, not even on papers yet.

Nothing may happen ultimately.

It's rather simple since the primary driver for twin engine fighter is navy not iaf!

All reports point that ADA was forced by navy to go for twin engine fighter as navy refused to accept any single engine plane .

So nlca mk2 is gone and tedbf is born. And if tedbf is coming than its iaf counterpart orca is natural development.

 

[Bleh]

It's rather simple since the primary driver for twin engine fighter is navy not iaf!

All reports point that ADA was forced by navy to go for twin engine fighter as navy refused to accept any single engine plane .

So nlca mk2 is gone and tedbf is born. And if tedbf is coming than its iaf counterpart orca is natural development.

While asking you to chill I've quite hypocritically, made a crude editing of the LCA Navy Mark2 graphic designs to create a TEDBF based on it (unlike the one that resembles Mark1 AF).

Original version followed by edited one:

I've also requested @Kuntal to make 3D renders of this. His skills are much superior to mine. @porky_kicker what do you think?

 

[IndianHawk]

While asking you to chill I've quite hypocritically, made a crude editing of the LCA Navy Mark2 graphic designs to create a TEDBF based on it (unlike the one that resembles Mark1 AF).

Original version followed by edited one:
View attachment 41508View attachment 41509

View attachment 41511View attachment 41510

View attachment 41513View attachment 41512
I've also requested @Kuntal to make 3D renders of this. His skills are much superior to mine. @porky_kicker what do you think?

Excitement is justified ! Not often new jets are conceptualised that too Indian jets!!

It will not only add an engine but will grow longer and fatter to accommodate increased airflow and more internal fuel.

 

[Bleh]

Excitement is justified ! Not often new jets are conceptualised that too Indian jets!!

It will not only add an engine but will grow longer and fatter to accommodate increased airflow and more internal fuel.

The navy version of Mark2 is already much fatter though... actually enough for two engines.

 

[Bleh]

@patriots Can you spread these concepts on twitter? On Tejas related places?..

While asking you to chill I've quite hypocritically, made a crude editing of the LCA Navy Mark2 graphic designs to create a TEDBF based on it (unlike the one that resembles Mark1 AF).

Original version followed by edited one:
View attachment 41508View attachment 41509

View attachment 41511View attachment 41510

View attachment 41513View attachment 41512
I've also requested @Kuntal to make 3D renders of this. His skills are much superior to mine. @porky_kicker what do you think?

 

[IndianHawk]

The navy version of Mark2 is already much fatter though... actually enough for two engines.

Yup it's thicc! But it doesn't have canards and wings of tebdf have to be foldable. Wonder what changes that will bring to width

 

[Bleh]

Atleast TEDBF is more or less official...

 

[IndianHawk]

Atleast TEDBF is more or less official...

Air force should double down on it with orca. Cancel mmrca and go full hog with mwf / orca / amca.

 

[Bleh]

Air force should double down on it with orca. Cancel mmrca and go full hog with mwf / orca / amca.

Best case scenario, AMCA & ORCA would be ready for flight by 2025 & induction by 2029-30... That's a whole decade!