Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

[smestarz]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Honestly all rafale has is the 20k payload it can carry vs 8-10k for most other planes.

It also costs 1-130mil USD each. So is one rafale really better than 2-2.5x T-50s? No.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Sukhoi_T-50_Beltyukov.jpg
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The congress era deals for rafale and apache are bs deals anyway Imo. We would be getting 128 4.5gen (at best) fighters and 70 combat ready helos without any armor.

Is it not better to continue to pursue dev with Russia and Israel for more numbers?

By god, we are a nation of 1.2 billion

with only 750 planes vs the US's 2500!

I think you have some issues with the units or maybe you lack it how important they are.
Let me correct you here
The empty weight of the heaviest Rafale M is 10,196 kilograms (22,480 lb)
And Rafale can carry capacity of 9,500 kg (20,900 lb) its 9.5 tons by the way on 14 pylons

Su-30 MKI
Empty weight: 18,400 kg (40,565 lb)
It has 12 pylons and can carry about 8 tons of stores.

Eurofighter Typhoon:
Empty weight: 11,000 kg (24,250 lb)
It has 13 pylons and that can carry 7,500 kg (16,500 lb) of payload

Now the big difference that you are talking about 20K against 8-10 K as you see does not exist.

BTW, Su-30 MKI will be the only plane in the world that can carry and fire Brahmos A, the air launched Brahmos, and its too big for Rafale.
So in this way your calculations for Rafale does go wrong.

Further to add is, the A2A armament of Su-30 MKI has more longer range than Rafale, and hence there is very high probablity that Su-30 MKI will fire first also add to this NOVATOR which has range of 400 kms !! The longest range missile that Rafale has is METEOR, and btw we have been offered METEOR separately for any plane that IAF uses. Thus we do not have advantage in buying Rafale at US$ 120 million a plane and it becomes more expensive when you add the cost of putting the line and other things.

 

[smestarz]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Who thinks of such a clause, or was it specifically included to scuttle or delay the deal at a later date, or may be just one of the many blunderous misgivings of the Indian bureaucracy? People involved need to be penalized for such blunders, no excuses what-so-ever!

And if the price has not changed in Euro, then it's not bad at all since the EUR INR exchange rate hasn't seen much change in the past 2 years, though I doubt, and something not being talked about in Indian circles for obvious reasons, is price adjustment to inflation with each passing year. We need to learn to take our decisions on time, and not keep them pending for long.

If you think of it maybe it was suggested by IAF, so if Dassault is to be responsible for the plane and that IAF was pushing for the signing of contract so automatically it would be as Dassault says (laws of economics) and hence Reliance would automatically have a bigger role.
Was it not a year ago that IAF was calling for the contract to be signed and dump HAL because HAL has many upgrade projects?

IF you consider that context, you can see why the upgrade project of Mirage 2000 and Jaguar was signed ... to keep HAL out and keep them busy with the upgrades and meanwhile Dassault can have its way in building Rafale and not really share technology

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

@sgarg
Rafale is a stop-gap plane and should be viewed as such. Any foreign weapon system is always a compromise (if we don't have the current capability to build something similar). We made a mistake de-linking the Kaveri-Snecma JV from the project. Now, what is left is to make the best of a not so good deal and move on.

I am actually very happy that this warranty problem is removed. This is initiative of the DM and HAL has cooperated.
Now is the time for serious discussion on costs. We shall see how French side works on this.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

I think you have some issues with the units or maybe you lack it how important they are.
Let me correct you here
The empty weight of the heaviest Rafale M is 10,196 kilograms (22,480 lb)
And Rafale can carry capacity of 9,500 kg (20,900 lb) its 9.5 tons by the way on 14 pylons

Su-30 MKI
Empty weight: 18,400 kg (40,565 lb)
It has 12 pylons and can carry about 8 tons of stores.

Su-30MKI does not carry external fuel, so it can use all the external pylons for carrying weapons.
Rafale's internal fuel capacity is much lower (40%) of Su-30MKI, so it will carry external fuel.

The real weapons carrying capacity of Rafale is lower than Su-30MKI in a similar mission profile.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

If you think of it maybe it was suggested by IAF, so if Dassault is to be responsible for the plane and that IAF was pushing for the signing of contract so automatically it would be as Dassault says (laws of economics) and hence Reliance would automatically have a bigger role.
Was it not a year ago that IAF was calling for the contract to be signed and dump HAL because HAL has many upgrade projects?

IF you consider that context, you can see why the upgrade project of Mirage 2000 and Jaguar was signed ... to keep HAL out and keep them busy with the upgrades and meanwhile Dassault can have its way in building Rafale and not really share technology

The clause likely comes from the period when Rafale was supposed to be built by Reliance and Dassault had no objection to the clause.
Dassault bolted when HAL was brought into the picture.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

The operational cost of SU-30 given is old data without any solid source ..

Fanboy estimate at best from other forums ..

=========

Rafale operational cost is accurate thought ..

@Kunal Biswas,

What other "proof" you want? The fact is that IAF should give Su-30 operating figures; and justify why Rafale is appropriate for it cost-wise.
The problem in India is that there is no public scrutiny of defence spending.

 

[smestarz]

Re: Su-35 super flanker deal signed

The Su-35 S 5th Gen plane can make sense only if

A) Russia is thinking to re-engine the present Su-35 with the new engines being designed for PAKFA
B) Making it more Electronically Stealth..

As most might agree that the present 5th gen qualities, F-35 does not really fully qualify as a 5th Gen plane, further the cost and maintenance of 5th gen planes will be high. Dassault has been for the lack of better word pimping its Rafale as many things. They coined a nice marketing term "Omni role" which some fan boys are trying to now differentiate between multi role saying that Omni role is one step ahead of multi role, as per me it all depends on the doctrine of the forces. Also they have been now calling that using its SPECTRA, Rafale is a stealty plane with its RCS now being very competitive to F-35 !! Not sure if I want to believe that, but if its true then its all about developing the right electronics that jam the signals, that might in a way make even Tejas II one of the most deadly fighters, its already small and so VLO and adding such avionics / pods it will be as stealthy as F-35 and with better aerodynamics.

I guess the Russians have been working on Electronic stealth wherby they add avionics that Jam the Radar signals or manipulate them in a way that the plane does not appear on the radar at all, also rather than just give the technology to India they might try to make more money by giving Plane + tech. This in a way makes sense, also a note to Dassault, you could not be the only one with SPECTRA type EW suite

 

[anum]

India will be get su-35s its more better then Su-30s

 

[anoop_mig25]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

It is CCS who will decide.
Counsel of Ministers are answerable to Parliament.

now a days stuff competition in fighters. LCA & AMCA is only going to make it harder for them to sell fighters.

Council of minister are reponsible agreed

But i have never haerd d debate where any ministry representing CCS has made any answer to wy a particular waepon was brought from XYZ country

Nor any questione where asked

and primary mod has first say in which wepaons to buy

can u site an eg where other department has forced Mod to buy another weapon instead of what mod was suggesting

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

The operational cost of SU-30 given is old data without any solid source ..

Fanboy estimate at best from other forums ..

=========

Rafale operational cost is accurate thought ..

Why Rafale is accurate and Su-30 inaccurate. The forum says Su-30 is twice of F-16.
The largest component in per hour cost is the initial cost where Su-30 is half of Rafale.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

What is your understanding of operational and maintenance cost, Google fu is pretty useless here ..

The largest component in per hour cost is the initial cost where Su-30 is half of Rafale.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

The Rafale case boils down to two things primarily - stealth and spectra EW suite. The major criticism of Su-30MKI is lack of stealth.
Su-35 has much better stealth characteristics and EW; though arguably still lower than Rafale.
However do we need to start an arms race as Chinese will definitely counter IAF's Rafale. China will most likely ramp up deployment of its latest fighters near India or maybe transfer to Pakistan also.

Rafale may be better but it does not give IAF superiority over PLAAF.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Not sure @sgarg, But you sound no less than Rafale people here ..

You are quoting incorrect data then avoiding all the question asked, You are making claims that has no source to back up, You are also repeating same slogans one or another way in every start of new page ..

No matter what, You are more inclined towards anything Russian before any-other ..

The Rafale case boils down to two things primarily - stealth and spectra EW suite. The major criticism of Su-30MKI is lack of stealth. Su-35 has much better stealth characteristics and EW; though arguably still lower than Rafale. Rafale may be better but it does not give IAF superiority over PLAAF.

 

[smestarz]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

The Rafale case boils down to two things primarily - stealth and spectra EW suite. The major criticism of Su-30MKI is lack of stealth.
Su-35 has much better stealth characteristics and EW; though arguably still lower than Rafale.
However do we need to start an arms race as Chinese will definitely counter IAF's Rafale. China will most likely ramp up deployment of its latest fighters near India or maybe transfer to Pakistan also.

Rafale may be better but it does not give IAF superiority over PLAAF.

So called Rafale superiority in terms of EW suite is debatable. The Russians are known not to talk too much about their products specially put them in media but the users who have them know about the products.

One of the examples was when an AEGIS destroyer Donald Cook was rendered useless by an older Su-24 plane and its AEGIS system just would not work. Did anyone of you knew about the system? Did anyone see it coming? So the Russians have a lot of development, but not much is known about them.

Now most people here agree that Israel makes one of the best avionics (they do get american help) now if we take the Su-35, India would ask for Israeli avionics on it, and it could be the one that Israel might put on their F-35.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Not sure @sgarg, But you sound no less than Rafale people here ..

You are quoting incorrect data then avoiding all the question asked, You are making claims that has no source to back up, You are also repeating same slogans one or another way in every start of new page ..

No matter what, You are more inclined towards anything Russian before any-other ..

OK time of truth for you. Can you provide the breakup of Russian planes in IAF vs Western planes in IAF.
It is IAF that buys Russian planes (or Indian government for that matter). Why blame me for being pro-Russian.

Please point out WHICH data provided by me is wrong??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Just re-read following post and reply accordingly, Post number #723 , #727, #678 ..

If possible with some good source not other forum talk ..

Please point out WHICH data provided by me is wrong??

 

[smestarz]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Not sure @sgarg, But you sound no less than Rafale people here ..

You are quoting incorrect data then avoiding all the question asked, You are making claims that has no source to back up, You are also repeating same slogans one or another way in every start of new page ..

No matter what, You are more inclined towards anything Russian before any-other ..

If you had said that about me than it would be ok, my gf is Russian. From Novosibirsk (the same city where Sukhoi factory )

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Just re-read following post and reply accordingly, Post number #723 , #727, #678 ..

If possible with some good source not other forum talk ..

PLAAF and RuAF bought Su-35S. So that is a start.

While you can argue against RuAF, it is unlikely China would buy Su-35S without some significant improvement over Su-30.

The avionic suite is fully digital. The centrepiece is the Tikhomirov NIIP N035 Irbis E (Snow Leopard) 20 kiloWatt class steerable hybrid ESA radar. A new glass cockpit is employed, using large area displays. The Khibiny electronic warfare suite is employed, with new wingtip DRFM technology jamming pods.

In strategic terms the Su-35S is a game changer, as it robustly outclasses all competing Western fighter aircraft other than the F-22A Raptor.

Range with maximal fuel load, km:
Н=0, М=0.7
1,580
Нcr, М cr
3,600
Ferry range: 4,500

Sukhoi/KnAAPO Su-35BM/Su-35-1/Su-35S Flanker

The range numbers for Su-35S are significantly better than Su-30.
Su-35S is capable of supersonic flight at low level.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Gripen operational cost lowest of all western fighters: Jane's | StratPost

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Su-30MKI operational cost is not available from official sources. But there are many indicators that Su-30MKI O&M benefits from local production. For example tires come from MRF now which are significantly cheaper compared to OEM tires. Other parts may be saying the same story.
An article on the net says MKI radar uses Indian TR modules. If this is true, then India basically has the ability to repair MKI radar.
MKI engine assembly and overhaul are now done by HAL.

There are multiple data-points which suggest O&M cost is not higher in comparison with Rafale.

My source says that GOI will push TOT of the order of MKI at least in case of Rafale. This means TOT of engine and radar. It remains to be seen if French cooperate.