Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

sgarg

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Super-30 upgrade is nothing new, It has been on web since 2012, You can google if you want ..

Can you provide source to back such claims, Thanks in Advance ..
I agree. But Su-30 upgrade is NOT YET SANCTIONED. It is only proposed.

Please see IDSA articles on IAF fleet planning. This will open your eyes. IDSA says IAF need 60-65 squadrons by 2032. Su-30 upgrade has no meaning if fleet accretion is the main priority.

IAF projections are not logical as these are based on some 810 fighters in 2032. Even if we take an average of 18 aircrafts per squadrons, this is 45 squadrons. There is a huge gap of 15-20 squadrons between IAF projections and actual need.

IAF has foregone numbers to accommodate Rafale in its plan. The current government may not agree to this plan.

The government may want to see an IAF go for at least 60 squadrons in 2032.
 

sgarg

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

The IAF plan 2032 is based on just five squadrons of LCA Tejas. The government may push for 15. So this adds 10 squadrons.
The remaining 5 extra squadrons will come from FGFA, Su-35 (maybe) and AMCA.

The GOI may push FGFA by asking Russia for direct supply of two squadrons. Su-35 may replace Rafale. Su-35 may cost GOI 80M per plane. With a lot of supply chain in India, its maintenance will cost less as well. The money saved from Rafale can be used for extra LCA and FGFA.

The mix can give extra 15 squadrons without need to increase the investment.

The Su eats more fuel but other costs are lower. IAF may have sabotaged uptime by intentional slack on maintenance. Su fleet is doing fine in other countries. GOI is sure to check Su fleet of other countries before believing IAF numbers.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

It is already under practice, If i am not wrong the latest batch which being overhauled by HAL is getting super-30 upgrade ..




Under the upgrade, The large MFD are already under production under DARE ..

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What other lower costs ?, Please elaborate including your claims about SU-35 ..

Please stop making facts, Provide source / Logic to your claims ..

I agree. But Su-30 upgrade is NOT YET SANCTIONED. It is only proposed.
The Su eats more fuel but other costs are lower.
 

sgarg

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

The Super 30 represents the next evolution for the SU-30MKI. Upgrades are reported to include a new radar (probably AESA, and likely Phazotron's Zhuk-AE), improved onboard computers, upgraded electronic warfare systems, and the ability to fire the air-launched version of the Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

India may eventually upgrade its earlier models to this standard. For now, they represent the tail end of HAL's assembly schedule, as the assembly of standard SU-30MKIs continues. The big challenge for HAL is to keep that expansion going, by meeting India's production targets.
India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

Where is improvements in RCS in the above quote??


The article quoted by you includes this sentence - "Stealth: To reduce Radar cross section of the Sukhoi 30 , Airframe will get several structural changes to the airframe to reduce its radar signature , airframe will also get special radar absorbing paint coat to further reduce its RCS." This sentence is meaningless. The absorbent paint is an Indian tech that is applied to all existing fighters. The rest of it is very hard to achieve without very significant structural changes.

Can you give me definite information of Super-30 upgrade being applied to current in-production fighters?? How can it happen without money being sanctioned for it?
 
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nimo_cn

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

how much longer is it gonna take before the deal is finished?

Sent from my HUAWEI P7-L07 using Tapatalk 2
 

sgarg

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

how much longer is it gonna take before the deal is finished?

Sent from my HUAWEI P7-L07 using Tapatalk 2
Cann't say. The Rafale is causing a lot of grief right now.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

The money and other detail were released back as 2011-12, Many links are no longer avilable ..

Wait for few more months to get repetition of same article ..

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

Where is improvements in RCS in the above quote??


The article quoted by you includes this sentence - "Stealth: To reduce Radar cross section of the Sukhoi 30 , Airframe will get several structural changes to the airframe to reduce its radar signature , airframe will also get special radar absorbing paint coat to further reduce its RCS." This sentence is meaningless. The absorbent paint is an Indian tech that is applied to all existing fighters. The rest of it is very hard to achieve without very significant structural changes.

Can you give me definite information of Super-30 upgrade being applied to current in-production fighters?? How can it happen without money being sanctioned for it?
 

sgarg

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

We have only seen structural improvements for carrying Brahmos missile. The change of radar, EW equipment, structural changes etc. which are supposed to be done under Super-30 are nowhere to be seen. Some changes happen automatically due to improvements in products. But no separate category is created in such cases.
Typically the OEM is consulted for deep upgrades and KNAAPO may have given option of buying Su-35. It is possible.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

I don`t believe that could happen in any ways, It is highly illogical decision considering the noted points & details / sources, Provided above posts ..

Still if you think so, Then you are most welcome to do so, Its your view ..

Typically the OEM is consulted for deep upgrades and KNAAPO may have given option of buying Su-35. It is possible.
 

sayareakd

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Russians with one plane are going to take out LCA and AMCA, be careful guys.
 

sgarg

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Let's assume for a moment that Su-35 replaces Rafale; say in equal numbers. What is the harm? India already operates Su-30MKI. India has invested huge money in Nasik to build Su-30MKI. The same facility can turn out Su-35.

So India saves chunk of money on initial cost and support cost.

The argument that India needs an aircraft of Western origin is no longer so strong; as IAF is still operating primarily Su and Mig today; and this has not created any significant problem.

Mig-29 is being upgraded. Su-30MKI is a potent platform. Even Mirage-2000 is being upgraded. We need continuity with improved version of Su-30 (in the form of Su-35), just as we are progressing from Tejas Mark-1 to Tejas mark-2.

Can we not live with a mix of Su and LCA?? Heavy fighter and light fighter built for different jobs, so complementary.
 
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anoop_mig25

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Russians with one plane are going to take out LCA and AMCA, be careful guys.
So would have western one....

Between how come be can be carefull since its burocarcy specailly Mod decided what to buy and from whom ...

Even if government changes decision of previous gov related to such weapons reamins intach...

I thinking rusiians are verbally offer help in developing LCA/MCA as make in India programme if Mod buys russian fighters instead of western one..

One can only now blame french Rafael for gegin stuborn in there demands
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Their is big hole in your thinking ..

1. Only 1/4th MKI are active and accident prone due to malfunctioning engine and avionics, Operating and maintaining these machine is another story which is mentioned here before ..

2. India is infamous for its MIG-21 crashes and loss of pilots, Killing more than 5 dozens of Pilots since its induction ..

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SU-30 are only mid term solution, Their is more scope of upgradtion in Tejas towards 5th generation than 4.5gen flankers ...

AMCA is the true replacement of Rafale or more ..

IAF is still operating primarily Su and Mig today; and this has not created any significant problem.

Can we not live with a mix of Su and LCA?? Heavy fighter and light fighter built for different jobs, so complementary.
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Let it be French or Russian, All think alike and behave alike ..

India getting on its own feet is bad for their business interest ..

Russians with one plane are going to take out LCA and AMCA, be careful guys.
 

sgarg

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Well no pilot is killed flying Su-30. The Su-30 is flown since 1999. Losses of five aircrafts in 15 years cannot be called big losses.
MKI availability rate has improved to 55% lately and efforts are on towards further improvement.

So why not. What happens if Rafale also faces shortage of parts and its availability drops to below 50%?? Is there a guarantee that it won't happen?

AMCA is only on drawing board. No parts have been made so far. The AMCA project is very far from a prototype.

The fleet planning can only be done in terms of what is there today.
 
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sayareakd

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

So would have western one....

Between how come be can be carefull since its burocarcy specailly Mod decided what to buy and from whom ...

Even if government changes decision of previous gov related to such weapons reamins intach...

I thinking rusiians are verbally offer help in developing LCA/MCA as make in India programme if Mod buys russian fighters instead of western one..

One can only now blame french Rafael for gegin stuborn in there demands
It is CCS who will decide.
Counsel of Ministers are answerable to Parliament.

now a days stuff competition in fighters. LCA & AMCA is only going to make it harder for them to sell fighters.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Buying more flanker is waste of resource, First IAF have to get its existing flanker in operational reediness, The quantity is more then sufficient for Heavy class fighters considering their cost of operation and maintenance ..

Buying Rafale 10 years back make sense, Now its a waste of resource, The same must be diverted for home grown industry and upgrade existing fighter fleet until 5th gen fighter available both in Light ( Tejas MK2 ++ ), Medium ( AMCA ) and Heavy class ( FGFA ) ..

Buying fighters and War machine is not same as going market and buying vegetables ..
 

Kay

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

AMCA won't be starting to arrive at-least before 2025. We need the Rafale for the next 20 - 25years. But we can do with much less numbers than 126. 60-80 would be good enough keeping in mind the cost of the planes. Selecting any other plane at this time would farther delay induction. Su-35s will be heavy planes and not in the same category as MMRCAs. Also, more Su-MKIs is not a solution. We will be having too many heavy fighters and spend a lot more on maintenance. Tejas MK2 production has to speed up. Shortage of Rafales have to be countered by Tejas and MKIs. GOI needs to take decisions fast.
 

sorcerer

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Warranty Compromise Agreed on India Rafale Contract

A compromise solution splitting contractual warranties between France's Dassault Aviation and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has removed the biggest obstacle to closing the long-delayed sale of 126 Rafale fighters to India.

Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier confirmed in Paris today that the compromise solution makes each company contractually responsible for its own work on the contract, reports Defense Aerospace. This is of crucial long-term importance as HAL is due to gradually assume a bigger share of the 108 Rafales it is due to assemble, and ultimately manufacture, in India.

"Now, there will be a shared warranty as each partner will be responsible for its own work, Trappier told reporters here, "and HAL will provide warranties for its own work." The Indian government has been insisting that Dassault take responsibility for the aircraft assembled by HAL, over which it had no control, and both sides have wrangling over this point for the best part of two years.

This is the same warranty arrangement that is currently in force for the two companies' work on the ongoing upgrade of India's fleet of Mirage 2000H fighters, and it is not clear why it was not adopted from the start. A senior Dassault executive said "taking responsibility is the only way to grow up and to gain experience," and it is what Indian manufacturers must do to implement the governments "Make In India" policy.


For the Mirage upgrade, Dassault is supplying the first two complete upgraded aircraft – they are due to be delivered in the coming weeks – while the rest will be upgraded by HAL in Bangalore. HAL will provide the warranty for the latter, with Dassault providing assistance as necessary.

Trappier was careful to note that resolution of the warranty issue does not mean an immediate signature of the Rafale contract, as this is always a long process in India as many administrative levels are involved.

Dassault has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter, Trappier said, but this aspect has been overshadowed by the main contract.


He also declined to provide any clarity among the conflicting cost figures published in India on the Rafale contract, but he did say that, in euros, its cost has not increased since 2012. And the euro's depreciation compared to the US dollar makes Rafale more competitive than its foreign competitors, he added.

According to current plans, Dassault is to build and deliver the first 18 Rafales from its own production line at Bordeaux-Mérignac, but HAL will assemble all aircraft beginning with the 19th aircraft, and will manufacture a gradually bigger share of the aircraft so that, by the time the 126th is delivered, it has become practically autonomous.


Trappier also dismissed reports in the Indian press that the Rafale deal will be replaced by a new buy of Russian fighters. "I see that Rafale is a fighter that scares the Russians, but we are not afraid of their fighters," he said, adding that Russian competitors had been eliminated from the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition that Rafale ultimately won.

Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/world/20150312/1013738343.html#ixzz3UBnYlwVt
 

sgarg

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Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

AMCA won't be starting to arrive at-least before 2025. We need the Rafale for the next 20 - 25years. But we can do with much less numbers than 126. 60-80 would be good enough keeping in mind the cost of the planes. Selecting any other plane at this time would farther delay induction. Su-35s will be heavy planes and not in the same category as MMRCAs. Also, more Su-MKIs is not a solution. We will be having too many heavy fighters and spend a lot more on maintenance. Tejas MK2 production has to speed up. Shortage of Rafales have to be countered by Tejas and MKIs. GOI needs to take decisions fast.
Why do we need category of MMRCA at all? Why not do with heavy and light fighters?

Do we have any empirical data to suggest that a medium plane will cost less than heavy plane to maintain??

The best figure is cost per hour that factors in initial cost, fuel cost and maintenance cost. What is cost per hour of Rafale compared to other planes? The data that I have seen suggests Rafale cost is higher compared to Su-30MKI.
 
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