Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

[Drsomnath999]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

LLLOLLLZ

equating Rafale is mirage 2000

is Stupidity to the power infinity

Here is a source which looks interesting

Russian AF chief: US fighters superior to Su-35S

Russian Air Force chief Gen Alexander Zemin Zelin briefed reporters today on the eve of the MAKS air show next week. Zelin covered a wide variety of topics, but we'll try to summarise the most interesting.

1. The Su-35S avionics and integrated defence system is inferior to "American fighters of the same type", Zelin said. Depending on how you interpret that phrase, Zelin is either implicitly endorsing Boeing's F-15 and F/A-18E/F, or perhaps Lockheed Martin's F-35 and F-22. My money is on the latter. Sadly, due to the "slow pace" of progress by Sukhoi, the Su-35's appearance at MAKS has been scratched. No word on the status of two PAK-FA prototypes -- T-50-1 and T-50-2.

Russian AF chief: US fighters superior to Su-35S - The DEW Line

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Well, what can I say. You've got it all in reverse.

The Flanker-H costs about $100 million a pop, and you're seriously expecting the SU-35 to be cheaper? The $60 million is the absolute naked price of the AC. Unless you are going to use it for airshows, you need the weapons, the EW suite and the maintainance logistics.

Flanker H Unit cost-1.61 billion (US$29 million)

Su 35 Unit cost US$40 million[2] to $65 million (estimated) man.Yes weapons should be bought Is is this like SALE or what to give weapons for free

The Su-30MKI takes a lot of its components from the SU-35, and not the other way around. The funding for the Flanker-H improved the financial position of the Sukhoi coorporation, but saying it was responsible for development of SU-35 is a little too much.

Am really confused Are u saying Su 27,Su 30k,Su 30 MKM su 30 MKI su 35 are diffrent ? All are flanker my friend.Fund provided for flanker or Sukoi not for su 30 mki or su 35 . China already signed for 40+ ac and soo there will be follow on for 200 more.

Both the Mirage and the F-16 were developed for the same role, with similar specifications. The next comment is weird, at best. Rafale is a completely different product.
Its like saying F16 is responsible for F-35 or SU-27 became PAKFA.

hahaha naaa. SAME ROLE? Dude mirage for deep stike and A2G role and F16s are for air sumermacy at cheap cost .History of f16 will be funny as they want something like Mig 29 they came up with f 16 and F18 f15 f22 f35 has same DNA bro ... pooff!

 

[pmaitra]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Am really confused Are u saying Su 27,Su 30k,Su 30 MKM su 30 MKI su 35 are diffrent ? All are flanker my friend.Fund provided for flanker or Sukoi not for su 30 mki or su 35 . China already signed for 40+ ac and soo there will be follow on for 200 more.

Yes, there are differences. E.g. Sukhoi-30MKI has canards, while Sukhoi-30 ain't got none.

Sukhoi-30

Sukhoi-30 MKI

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

That is because SU-35 is no modern fighter, It was since late 90s, It recently upgraded, Su-30/35 are upgrade SU-27 they are all flanker family..

Where as Super SU-30MKI is getting half the EW package of PAK-FA, Can use better weapons and better composite airframe and ram coating, Way beyond SU-35, SU-30MKI have TVC and with composite airframe it will be more agile..

How can Super sukoi bound to be better than Su 35.? Su 35 is the new Fighter jet altogether. Its like saying Su 27 upgarde will be better than Su 30 SM or even Super Sukoi.

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Kunal how come Su 30 mki is more modern than Su 35 mate? Su 35 already born with what ever u mentioned on Super Su. Even though Su 35 dont have AESA "The Su-35's Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale's Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale's Snecma M88." R u saying Super sukoi is will be better than Rafale ?

And i want to tell one more point here. See When Su 30 k was offered to India we modified it as Su 30MKI.If we want we can upgrade Su 35 itself and RCS is 1s^2m for Su 35 Will Super Sukoi will have lower than this with RAM alone? Or Powerfull than Su 35 ? NO

That is because SU-35 is no modern fighter, It was since late 90s, It recently upgraded, Su-30/35 are upgrade SU-27 they are all flanker family..

Where as Super SU-30MKI is getting half the EW package of PAK-FA, Can use better weapons and better composite airframe and ram coating, Way beyond SU-35, SU-30MKI have TVC and with composite airframe it will be more agile..

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

That is because SU-35 is no modern fighter, It was since late 90s, It recently upgraded, Su-30/35 are upgrade SU-27 they are all flanker family.. Where as Super SU-30MKI is getting half the EW package of PAK-FA, Can use better weapons and better composite airframe and ram coating, Way beyond SU-35, SU-30MKI have TVC and with composite airframe it will be more agile..

For example, the Su-30MKK jet fighters Russia sold to China were no match for the Su-30MKIs supplied to India at about the same time. The Chinese planes had an inferior radar and without the thrust vectoring engines the Indian version had.

This time the situation looks reversed.India's Su-30MKI will be no match for China's Su-35 which is powered by a higher thrust engine and boasts a more sophisticated radar, avionics and weapons, according to a leading Russian military expert, Konstantin Makienko.

Our Mirage 2000 will have many upgrades of RAFALE but its no comparison to rafale. Which evolved from Mirage 2000 fighters

Su-35S
Designation of the modernized Su-35 variant of the Russian Air Force .Will be ugraded too.Its better for us to buy atleast 60 su 35 with Aesa Radar and upgrading our Sukoi fleet to Super Sukoi

 

[sayareakd]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

@marine hk Russia wont sell Chini any state of the system for two reason first is copy cat chinese and second is that in any future war with China they dont want to face their own state of the fighters. Please remember even today both of them have lot of nukes pointing at each other.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

You have earlier opened a similar thread about same topic and you were given data and source back then too, Still you keep asking same thing via different threads, SU-35 was born back in 1980s, Its nothing new and its just recently upgraded..

Range of the radar is good but not AESA which is multifunction radar and less prone to jam, Rest of the things were mentioned in last post so does other thread opened by you..

Kunal how come Su 30 mki is more modern than Su 35 mate? Su 35 already born with what ever u mentioned on Super Su. Even though Su 35 dont have AESA "The Su-35's Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale's Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale's Snecma M88." R u saying Super sukoi is will be better than Rafale ?

And i want to tell one more point here. See When Su 30 k was offered to India we modified it as Su 30MKI.If we want we can upgrade Su 35 itself and RCS is 1s^2m for Su 35 Will Super Sukoi will have lower than this with RAM alone? Or Powerfull than Su 35 ? NO

Su-35S
Designation of the modernized Su-35 variant of the Russian Air Force .Will be ugraded too.Its better for us to buy atleast 60 su 35 with Aesa Radar and upgrading our Sukoi fleet to Super Sukoi

 

[p2prada]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Right now Su 35 is like Su 27 when first introduced .

No doubt. But it doesn't have the same kind of future as the Su-27 did. The future belongs to PAKFA/FGFA.

There will be many Upgraded including AESA radar and EW Suit.If India want Su35 with AESA radar like we did with Su 30 MKI config

And who will pay for the development? We? Why should we when we are already developing the FGFA?

If we change the config of the Su-35 to suit our purpose, then we will need design changes, followed by flight testing and then induction which will just be one or two years before FGFA is inducted in 2022.

We wil have best AC than rafale

Su-35 and even upgraded MKIs have nothing to do with Rafale.

Meaning, even if we go for Su-35 we won't be stopping the induction of Rafale.

 

[p2prada]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

LLLOLLLZ

equating Rafale is mirage 2000

is Stupidity to the power infinity

Here is a source which looks interesting

Russian AF chief: US fighters superior to Su-35S



Russian AF chief: US fighters superior to Su-35S - The DEW Line

True. But he is talking about the F-22 and F-35.

Su-35 is a 4th gen aircraft and hence no comparison.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

True. But he is talking about the F-22 and F-35.

Su-35 is a 4th gen aircraft and hence no comparison.

KIndly read again what he says

Zelin said

The Su-35S avionics and integrated defence system is inferior to "American fighters of the same type"

same type means probably same generation

that is 4.5+ gen fighters
F 18 E/F most probably
He may be partially correct

F 15 is obsolete plane

why would he compare with F22 / f35 avionics it's the blog author which is assuming to compare it with F22/F35

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

KIndly read again what he says

Zelin said


same type means probably same generation

that is 4.5+ gen fighters
F 18 E/F most probably
He may be partially correct

F 15 is obsolete plane

why would he compare with F22 / f35 avionics it's the blog author which is assuming to compare it with F22/F35

F/A 18 SH is no doubt a very potent platform, especially with the AN/APG-79 AESA, but F-15 isn't really an obsolete AC as of today. After the F-22, which still hasn't been deployed in any conflict, the F15 still retains the second place as in USAF ORBAT far as Air combat goes.

Saying it is obsolete means the Su-30MKI too is redundant, especially since as of today, the F-15 fields the APG-63v2/3 while the mki fields a Bars.
Infact it is still more caoable and updated than the Chinese J-10, the pakistani JF-17 or the Swedish Gripen ( of course different weight class).

The Saudi AF and the Singaporean AF recently inducted this fighter into their AF btw.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

F/A 18 SH is no doubt a very potent platform, especially with the AN/APG-79 AESA, but F-15 isn't really an obsolete AC as of today. After the F-22, which still hasn't been deployed in any conflict, the F15 still retains the second place as in USAF ORBAT far as Air combat goes.

Saying it is obsolete means the Su-30MKI too is redundant, especially since as of today, the F-15 fields the APG-63v2/3 while the mki fields a Bars.
Infact it is still more caoable and updated than the Chinese J-10, the pakistani JF-17 or the Swedish Gripen ( of course different weight class).

The Saudi AF and the Singaporean AF recently inducted this fighter into their AF btw.

F15 is obsolete in comparision to Su35
only F 15 silent eagle may be comparable to Su 35 but "May be"

SU 30 mki is definitely more potent platform than F15


though i dont wanna bash F 15 for no goood reason but it has come of age

What saudis / singapore induct has got more to do with diplomacy than capabilty

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

No doubt. But it doesn't have the same kind of future as the Su-27 did. The future belongs to PAKFA/FGFA.



And who will pay for the development? We? Why should we when we are already developing the FGFA?

If we change the config of the Su-35 to suit our purpose, then we will need design changes, followed by flight testing and then induction which will just be one or two years before FGFA is inducted in 2022.



Su-35 and even upgraded MKIs have nothing to do with Rafale.

Meaning, even if we go for Su-35 we won't be stopping the induction of Rafale.

I noticed u got one answer for many questions. What ever the question ur answer is PAKFA /FGFA :/ Dude so why do we need Rafale? Why do we need to spend more money on Super Sukoi upgrade + Aircraft Cost Which is Less than Su 35 Thats my point.Insteed of spnd ing money on super we simple can buy Su 35 and spend money on it for more upgrade .

 

[p2prada]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

KIndly read again what he says

Zelin said


same type means probably same generation

that is 4.5+ gen fighters
F 18 E/F most probably
He may be partially correct

F 15 is obsolete plane

why would he compare with F22 / f35 avionics it's the blog author which is assuming to compare it with F22/F35

Sukhoi advertises Su-35 as a next generation aircraft with very low RCS. Rafale, EF etc are also termed next generation. If you remember I posted a quote from a Navy Admiral who said that SH is a very good aircraft but Rafale is a next generation aircraft. So you can take Su-35 at what it is being advertised as.

Overall when we compare avionics, all these aircraft may be comparable in some way or the other. For eg: The F-22's radar is better than what's on the SH, but SH has better sensor fusion of assets and networking.

Overall F-22 and Su-35 have very similar avionics structure. Good radars mated to an IMA type system. Overall, Su-35/Rafale/EF are 4th gen aircraft with 5th gen avionics compared to 5th gen avionics and 5th gen airframe of the F-22.

Perhaps, to keep it cheap, Su-35 may be missing some other core features. One of them is the absence of an AESA which is now common to most of the USAF/USN fleet, regardless of 4th gen or 5th gen. The absence of AESA alone is a very crucial factor. Something the MKI won't have to worry about.

The reason why I believe Zelin is referring to F-22 and F-35 is because of the timeframe for induction and fleet formation. The F-22 is already operational while the F-35 will be operational around the same time as the Su-35 is inducted.

 

[p2prada]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

I noticed u got one answer for many questions. What ever the question ur answer is PAKFA /FGFA :/ Dude so why do we need Rafale? Why do we need to spend more money on Super Sukoi upgrade + Aircraft Cost Which is Less than Su 35 Thats my point.

We need Rafale because it fits into a completely different class of capability. FGFA will be inducted at the time Rafale may finish production of 126 jets, so comparing FGFA to Rafale is a moot point.

MKI needs upgrades, so we are not going to skip that, no matter what.

Insteed of spnd ing money on super we simple can buy Su 35 and spend money on it for more upgrade .

That's a complete waste of time. Su-35 won't be anywhere near MKI avionics wise. AESA + new gen IMA + new cockpit. The MKI needs to be upgraded anyway. If we think about upgrading Su-35 at the same level as the MKI, then the delays will push it into the FGFA timeframe which simply does not make sense when the FGFA is going to be many times superior to the Su-35. You are just making me repeat myself.

Think of any scenario you want where neither Rafale nor MKI are sacrificed in order to make place for Su-35. According to me, there aren't any. Even if MRCA deal goes into the bin, IAF may open a new tender or opt for another contender in a govt to govt deal. They may buy 2 more squadrons of MKIs to cater for the delays, but that's about it.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Sukhoi advertises Su-35 as a next generation aircraft with very low RCS. Rafale, EF etc are also termed next generation. If you remember I posted a quote from a Navy Admiral who said that SH is a very good aircraft but Rafale is a next generation aircraft. So you can take Su-35 at what it is being advertised as.

Overall when we compare avionics, all these aircraft may be comparable in some way or the other. For eg: The F-22's radar is better than what's on the SH, but SH has better sensor fusion of assets and networking.

Overall F-22 and Su-35 have very similar avionics structure. Good radars mated to an IMA type system. Overall, Su-35/Rafale/EF are 4th gen aircraft with 5th gen avionics compared to 5th gen avionics and 5th gen airframe of the F-22.

Perhaps, to keep it cheap, Su-35 may be missing some other core features. One of them is the absence of an AESA which is now common to most of the USAF/USN fleet, regardless of 4th gen or 5th gen. The absence of AESA alone is a very crucial factor. Something the MKI won't have to worry about.

The reason why I believe Zelin is referring to F-22 and F-35 is because of the timeframe for induction and fleet formation. The F-22 is already operational while the F-35 will be operational around the same time as the Su-35 is inducted.

The point is
Zelin never referred F22 & F-35 at all ,why would he compare a 4.5 gen with a 5th gen plane even if they market it to having a 5th gen avionics & self defence system as they know they have PAK-FA for them

the point about "aesa" is one of the main reason perhaps he compareed with american 4th gen fighter avionics

Overall, Su-35/Rafale/EF are 4th gen aircraft with 5th gen avionics compared to 5th gen avionics and 5th gen airframe of the F-22.

who really possess a true 5th gen avionics & self defence system among the three & who does marketting to have 5th gen avionics & self defence system among the three we all know

 

[p2prada]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

The point is
Zelin never referred F22 & F-35 at all ,why would he compare a 4.5 gen with a 5th gen plane even if they market it to having a 5th gen avionics & self defence system as they know they have PAK-FA for them

Zelin never referred to a 4th gen aircraft either. And he refers to next gen avionics, not airframe. The only American aircraft comparable to Su-35 is F-22 and F-35 because of the IMA architecture. The other aircraft don't have it from what I know of. Only F-16IN and SH International versions are expected to have IMA systems. So that comparison is moot. If he is referring only to AESA, it won't really do justice to Su-35 since no other aircraft except for F-22 will compare to it when it comes to single role missions regardless of AESA or PESA. However while AESA is common between American 4th and 5th gen fighters, IMA is not. So Zelin has to be comparing to the F-22 at least, if not the superior F-35.

 

[Austin]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Sukhoi would know all the details of Su-30MKI , Upgraded MKI and Su-35 so they would be aware how these aircraft performs both aerodynamically and electronics weapons etc ...consquently RuAF too would be aware of these aircraft.

It would be hard to know how Su-35S would compared with MKI or Super MKI , since RuAF never discloses what capability their aircraft possesses beyond what Rosoboronexport discloses for export variant of the type.

So it would be any body guess to know what exact configuration does RuAF operate and how does it differ with similar type which is exported.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Flanker H Unit cost-1.61 billion (US$29 million)

Su 35 Unit cost US$40 million[2] to $65 million (estimated) man.Yes weapons should be bought Is is this like SALE or what to give weapons for free

Am really confused Are u saying Su 27,Su 30k,Su 30 MKM su 30 MKI su 35 are diffrent ? All are flanker my friend.Fund provided for flanker or Sukoi not for su 30 mki or su 35 . China already signed for 40+ ac and soo there will be follow on for 200 more.

hahaha naaa. SAME ROLE? Dude mirage for deep stike and A2G role and F16s are for air sumermacy at cheap cost .History of f16 will be funny as they want something like Mig 29 they came up with f 16 and F18 f15 f22 f35 has same DNA bro ... pooff!

You are comparing the 1999-2000 cost of SU-30Mki with the 2011-12 price tag of the Su-35. Get your facts straight. What the hell are we doing with the LCA and the Mirage if the primary air dominance fighter costs $29 million. Even the Pakistanis do not make such a claim for the JF-17 Block 2-3. The IAF would have 689-690 mki for the price of 126 Rafale ( @ $20 billion for the deal). Who'd be idiot enough to go for the Rafale then?

They could be all Flankers, but are different in many aspects, particularly the avionics. The Su-30MKI contains many components from French,Israeli and even German suppliers, which the others have no access to. Then there is the demand and fund availability with the buyer.
And btw, funds were provided for improving the Su-30 to MKI standards, not to Sukhoi for improving PLAAF AC. The IAF team at Sukhoi made sure where the funds went.

And where did you get the 200 addon order? From your backside?

Amd the Mirage is a single seater, multirole combat AC with satisfactory A2A performance and good A2G capabilities. The F-16 is a single seater, low cost workhorse for the USAF/USN, built to complement the air superiority fighter F-15. Neither Mirage or F-16 are for air supremacy or deep penetration strike.
Even in the IAF, the Jaguar is designated DPSA, not the Mirage.

And I wasn't making a joke, so I'd appreciate if you reply seriously. Else if you are busy shadow trolling, you can just buzz off.
Thanks.