Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

[p2prada]

Then don't ask for the same point again & again.

I sttttttiiiiilllll don't get your point. What were you trying to prove by asking it in the first place.

Does it matter who offered and who showed interest?

You are claiming different propulsion on Amur & Lada as if they exist or you know them. Tell us which propulsion will they be?

It is so obvious. All P-75I subs will have different propulsion systems by the time they are introduced. Even Scorpene will be bigger and have better systems.

Your ignorance is ridiculous. You refuse to look in relevant thread about information you don't know about & accuse others of having no argument? Rich coming from you.

Aren't you the one who claimed we buy only old reliable proven systems? (It is obvious you got confused between indevelopment products and developed products over proven and unproven systems.)

Aren't you the one who claimed Scorpene is proven? (Of course you backtracked in the very next post.)

Aren't you the one who claimed Amur was rejected for Scorpene, when this never happened? (You gave varying dates for all.)

These are the posts from you,
You - If Amur was so convincing, India would have opted for it in 2005.
Me - Amur was not in contention. Scorpene was a govt to govt deal, not a tender.

You - Amur was proposed to Indian Government.
Me - Proposal is not negotiation.

So, you finally agreed and said this,
You - Ok, amur couldn't even make it to negotiation stage even when requirement was well recognized.

And my reply,
Me - Scorpene negotiations began in 1999. It was in 2004 that Amur was offered.
And your reply - Amur was offered all since 2001. The proposal couldn't cut in because engine was crap too.

So, you singlehandedly decided that in 2001 (a year you pulled out of God knows where and later changed it to 1997) India had already decided that Amur's propulsion was "crap" that even Rubin had no idea about it at the time.

That's why my reply,
Lol.

You were being disingenuous the entire time.

Let me explain what happened.

Amur was never offered as part of P-75. Amur was offered separate to the P-75 which India rejected and this was offered in 2004, not in 2001 or 1997 or any other date as such. And this wasn't because it was inferior or any other nonsense you could come up with. It was because the plan for a P-75A was too early and unaffordable and the option for a tender was a much better idea. We were no longer under sanctions when Amur was offered.

Currently there are two projects, P-75 and P-75A/I. There is no P-75B. P-75 was to setup the first assembly line for SSKs for which Scorpene was chosen as a direct govt to govt contract. P-75A was to follow up with a second line through a tender. The Russians wanted this second line and so did other industries like L&T and Pipavav. Rosonboronexport began negotiations with L&T to setup this second line for Amurs and have it run parallel with the Scorpenes. That's what L&T was negotiating for with GoI all these years, both with the French and the Russians. So you see P-75 wasn't a Scorpene vs Amur scenario.

Also Amur wasn't part of the plan in 1997 when Lada class was first started. The Russians have a different timeframe between the time they develop something for the military and a derivative for export. First the captive military version is made. During the time it is built, design bureau starts design work on the export version of this system. It is the same for PAKFA which is the captive version and a FGFA for export which is being designed now. This has nothing to do with India-Russia JV. This is how they have always worked since the 60s. Even today the S-400 is being delivered for operational service while the export version is still under development and will be ready only in 2017.

So Amur was never offered since the beginning and it had no scope for competing with Scorpene because it wasn't even designed at the time. Amur 950 and Amur 1650, the export versions, were post P-75 and post Lada designs. Other European options were not possible during P-75 due to the sanctions. During the time India was taking deliveries of the Kilo class sub and it had no scope for competing with the superior Scorpene. Hence a tender was impossible. The French screwed us over in part because Scorpene came at a very high premium. Also, Scorpene was always meant for export which meant it did not have to go through a second design process like Amur.

So, I hope you are all the more wiser now.

Prasun K Sengupta, Trishul 2009

Frontier India 2010

And here I was waiting for an actual credible source.

Prasun Sen Gupta is the worst source imaginable. He is all fart, no substance. Frontier India publishes his fart, but nobody with even an inkling to knowing what the military is about gives two hoots for what he writes. He has been caught with his pants down many times. I don't even consider him as a proper defense journo, let alone a source. There are many older forumers who share this view, not only me.

I am gonna end our discussion with this, as long as you have nothing more to add.

Brahmos is part of P-75A. Period. Overall, the discussion started because you believe P-75A has no LACM requirement (as suggested by Gupta which by itself is funny), which is not so because even Kilo class subs come with Klub today for both anti-shipping and anti-surface.

S-80 is large enough to handle VLS in terms of size, just needs an additional module. The only drawback is the American involvement.

Scorpene is being made larger and extended in order to handle VLS. Rather a French version of the S-80.

Germans may participate with the new Type 216 with VLS (actually this is my preferred sub over Scorpene/S-80 and Amur). It is the heaviest and most capable. But it may surpass requirements and may not be selected due to costs.

Amur already comes with VLS attachment. It is an extension to the sub with an additional module.

S1000 is the cheap version of Amur 950. Core components will be Russian, electronics etc will be Italian. A VLS is expected since Amu 950 will have one.

Overall, P-75A for India specific requirements is still not built yet, in any form. Only Amur comes the closest as it is a later design compared to the competition.

If we compare the P-75A to MRCA, for fun. I would say Type 216 is like EF-2000, the most capable, but may not get selected. S1000 is like Gripen NG, the smallest of the competitors and perhaps the least capable. S-80 is like the Super Hornet, comes with all the bells and whistles along with American strings. The enlarged Scorpene vs Amur 1650, I don't know which of them is the Rafale and which the Mig-35.

 

[nrj]

I sttttttiiiiilllll don't get your point. What were you trying to prove by asking it in the first place.

Leave the fruitless excercise.

It is so obvious. All P-75I subs will have different propulsion systems by the time they are introduced. Even Scorpene will be bigger and have better systems.

Such a superficial observation. I thought you spoke on behalf of any details. Clearly you don't know what propulsion would be, just that the Russians are gonna come up with the best.

Aren't you the one who claimed we buy only old reliable proven systems? (It is obvious you got confused between indevelopment products and developed products over proven and unproven systems.)

Aren't you the one who claimed Scorpene is proven? (Of course you backtracked in the very next post.)

I never used word only. I am on record.

Aren't you the one who claimed Amur was rejected for Scorpene, when this never happened? (You gave varying dates for all.)

Amur was offered separate to the P-75 which India rejected and this was offered in 2004, not in 2001 or 1997 or any other date as such.

I stand by what I said, India did not buy Amur when offered. India later chose Scorpene.

As of mid-1999 no customer had been found for the Amur 1650-class export submarine laid down at Admiralty Shipyard on 26 December 1997, as India had apparently decided it was not interested in the boat.

Amur / Lada Class - Project 677

Other source of Aleksandra Gritskova & Konstantin Lantratov (Russian Business in foreign security, 2005) was given earlier.

Prasun Sen Gupta is the worst source imaginable. He is all fart, no substance. Frontier India publishes his fart, but nobody with even an inkling to knowing what the military is about gives two hoots for what he writes. He has been caught with his pants down many times. I don't even consider him as a proper defense journo, let alone a source. There are many older forumers who share this view, not only me.

I am gonna end our discussion with this, as long as you have nothing more to add.

Brahmos is part of P-75A. Period. Overall, the discussion started because you believe P-75A has no LACM requirement (as suggested by Gupta which by itself is funny), which is not so because even Kilo class subs come with Klub today for both anti-shipping and anti-surface.

S-80 is large enough to handle VLS in terms of size, just needs an additional module. The only drawback is the American involvement.

And your words are far heavier than them or the naval RFI.

Trishul, Frontier India is all farts and you are omniscient. OK.

LACM requirement was not rejected but the launch configuration i.e VLS.

 

[p2prada]

I stand by what I said, India did not buy Amur when offered. India later chose Scorpene.
Amur / Lada Class - Project 677

Flawed source, when it is written in the same paragraph that the Amur 1650 began construction, which it did not and that Lada and was a parallel build and a Project 877. Nothing is more wrong that that. So between two wrong information, there is one which said Amur was offered to India. How interesting.

I don't know about your other source, the Russian journos.

And your words are far heavier than them or the naval RFI. Trishul, Frontier India is all farts and you are omniscient. OK.

LACM requirement was not rejected but the launch configuration i.e VLS.

RFI means nothing. RFI can be changed overnight like they did for MRCA. Heck they even changed RFP a second time.

Anyway, no point in arguing further. To each his own.

 

[nrj]

Flawed source, when it is written in the same paragraph that the Amur 1650 began construction, which it did not and that Lada and was a parallel build and a Project 877. Nothing is more wrong that that. So between two wrong information, there is one which said Amur was offered to India. How interesting.

You will find many reports saying first Amur was laid. Of course nothing happened after that.

I don't know about your other source, the Russian journos.

Amur was offered to India. Delhi showed no interest.

RFI means nothing. RFI can be changed overnight like they did for MRCA. Heck they even changed RFP a second time.

Anyway, no point in arguing further. To each his own.

Does not negate what was last specified requirement by navy.

They specified cruise missiles through torpedos not VLS. Brahmos is too big for torpedoes.

 

[ice berg]

Let us get back to topic, guys.

REVIEW & OUTLOOK ASIA
March 27, 2013, 1:06 p.m. ET
Asia's Great Rivalry
A deal to sell Russian fighters to China is less than it appears

Review & Outlook: Asia's Great Rivalry - WSJ.com

China's state-run media reported this week the purchase of 24 of Russia's most advanced fighter in production, the Su-35, as a capstone to new leader Xi Jinping's visit to Moscow last week. But there's something odd about the announcement. The deal was supposedly signed before the summit, but it wasn't revealed in Moscow. And even now the Russian government remains silent, while some Russian media deny the sale was agreed. The confusion is a reminder that Sino-Russian relations are never as warm as the bear hugs would suggest.

Mr. Xi made Moscow his first foreign stop, as did his predecessor Hu Jintao a decade ago, and he and his hosts proclaimed the visit exceeded their expectations. They certainly share an interest in reducing U.S. influence in their backyards and talking the idea of a "multipolar world." Mr. Xi raised eyebrows when he described the relationship as "the most important one in the world and also the best one between major powers."

Behind the rhetoric of strategic partnership, however, the two countries are rivals for influence in Central and East Asia. Russia is a great power in denial about its decline and China's relative strength. Having been the elder brother for decades, inspiring fear in Mao Zedong that drove him into the arms of the U.S., Moscow now worries that the vast resources of its underpopulated far east will eventually fall into Chinese hands.

The Su-35 deal encapsulates the mistrust nicely. Russia still has military technology that China wants, but it hasn't sold a major weapons system to its neighbor in a decade. That's due in part to Beijing's broken promises not to copy them. Military aircraft factories in Shenyang have produced multiple versions of the Su-27 and its descendants, including the J-15 carrier-based fighter that is in trials aboard China's first aircraft carrier.

When the Su-35 negotiations surfaced last year, Moscow held out for a purchase of 48 planes, whereas Beijing wanted to buy four. If this week's reports are correct, the two met in the middle with 24. That order is needed to keep production lines running while new stealth planes are in development, since key potential customers in Libya, Syria and Venezuela are history.

One reason the sale can go forward may be that China is no longer interested in copying the Su-35. It is designing its own stealth fighters such as the J-20, now in the prototype phase. The Su-35 is more of a stopgap to bolster China's forces in the meantime.

Another reason to think the Su-35 sale is less significant than it appears involves India. Delhi has usually had preferential access to Russian technology ahead of Beijing, yet it lacks planes as sophisticated as the Su-35. But since India and Russia are cooperating on the development of the next generation stealth jets, signifying greater mutual trust, Delhi can live with this temporary disadvantage.

The most important detail may be how many spare engines the Russians have agreed to sell. The design and production of high performance jet engines are key technologies that China hasn't mastered, and there is speculation that Beijing wants the Su-35 engines to power its stealth fighters. It's an open question how long this gap will persist, but Russia will try to milk it for all it's worth.

Moscow also still has some leverage over Beijing on energy. It agreed to double oil exports, which will reduce China's dependence on Middle East oil. Sea lanes through the Indian Ocean and the Malacca Strait would be vulnerable to closure by the U.S. in a conflict, which is why Beijing is willing to effectively pay up front through loans.

But in energy too, Russia's power is dwindling. Negotiations on the export of natural gas are still stalled over price, which is no wonder given the effect of the shale gas revolution on the world market. China may want to diversify its sources of energy, but it has no qualms about playing Gazprom off against other suppliers.

Moscow and Beijing would like to portray their relationship as stronger than ever due to the renewed U.S. focus on Asia. But underneath the facade, their rivalry will only grow more intense as China continues to rise. That may one day push Vladimir Putin's successors into the same position as Mao Zedong, looking for closer ties with the U.S. to manage the threat from their more powerful neighbor.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

@Yusuf

Yeah, China wanted to buy only 4 Su-35s. Shows they want it for RE.

 

[average american]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

We dont sell the F22 to any one even including our allies and the India has to be twisting itself into knots trying to reach some ridiculous conclusion that the selling of the advanced SU35 to China wont affect India security.

 

[Yusuf]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

@Yusuf

Yeah, China wanted to buy only 4 Su-35s. Shows they want it for RE.

Lol, thanks for helping me restore my faith in my memory power!!

 

[badguy2000]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

the sale of SU35 might just a repeat of the sale of Su33,I think......

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Lol, thanks for helping me restore my faith in my memory power!!

Was my bad. Anyway, we still don't know how things will progress from here on.

 

[average american]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

@Yusuf

Yeah, China wanted to buy only 4 Su-35s. Shows they want it for RE.

According to Chinese media, the agreement was for four Amur-1650 class diesel-electric submarines and 24 Su-35s, one of Russia's most advanced fighters.
China Reportedly To Buy Russian Subs, Fighter Jets : The Two-Way : NPR

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

According to Chinese media, the agreement was for four Amur-1650 class diesel-electric submarines and 24 Su-35s, one of Russia's most advanced fighters.
China Reportedly To Buy Russian Subs, Fighter Jets : The Two-Way : NPR

This was when negotiations started. Probably mid 2000s. Now they seem to have settled for 24.

 

[average american]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

With friends like Russia, India does not need any enemys.

 

[Shirman]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

With friends like Russia, India does not need any enemys.

To be honest Sir i heard the same from Egyptians, Pakistanis and Malaysians when americans halted/sanctioned hardware for their f-16s and f/a-18c/d respectively..............that with USA as a friend who needs enemies

I heard uncle sam country halted amraams for Egyptian F-16s and Malaysian F/A-18s and as a South Asian and Indian we all know how many times you guys sanctioned Pakistan for their Falcon delivery through 90s and early 2000s....... while we were happy with our bvr tipped "Russian" mig-29s.......

 

[average american]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

How about the Mig 21 flying coffins. MIG 27, the flying coffin - YouTube

 

[Dovah]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

How about the Mig 21 flying coffins. MIG 27, the flying coffin - YouTube

You are on a failing spree dude.

Mismatched video and comment. Do you do this on purpose?

 

[Shirman]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

How about the Mig 21 flying coffins. MIG 27, the flying coffin - YouTube

Hey HEY thats easy it was't some ruski fault that mig 21 became flying coffins in the first place...IT was Indian MoD, defence ministry fault..... there were many options in the 90s for example which i liked was to go for 50 to 100 second hand mig-29s from various countries....or re-engine upgraded Mig-21 with mig-29 engine....back then elbit systems of Israel even offered upgrade options for both IAF mig-29s and mig-21 bis called as sniper and lancer programs but our great defense ministry refused under arab friendly pressure if things could have gone that way then none of the flying coffins would have crashed.........
Even now i love F/A-18 international roadmap but looking at american attitude towards us i doubt you guys even sell us f-35 if we want to..............
we are going off topic so lets stick to thread shall we plz.......

 

[average american]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

India blames Russia, Russia blames India, no one takes responsibility, Planes, aircraft carriers, tanks etc, now its the PAK FAs turn.

 

[indochina]

I think the Chinese Su-35, if any, will be used as the enemy assumes (referring to Su-30MKI), so the border if there is a conflict if the Su-30MKI can face thewith Su-35S (khauphien definitely will have reduced features, such as old AL41 TVC, no radar Irbis-E) and the entire weapon old Russian (R-27/73/77) or new China's efficiency unverified (PL-8/9/10/12).

So this war will depend on the level of pilot

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

@p2prada why would a trainer have AESA radar?