Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

[mahesh]

why is this Xi's 5 point plan and the su-35 & sub deal are happening at the same time frame? is it to neutralize the India oppose to Russia for not proceed with sub & su-35 deal, or to create a impression to Russia that they can take care of "India issue" with the deal. or either way

 

[Singh]

Probably Chinese plans to re-engineer them or use them for their own product and strategy development.

 

[nrj]

One floating hull doesn't count for much. It is still unproven technology.

First submarine was entering commissioning, well past floating stage when India placed order. And it was still better than paper tiger Amur or S1000 lacking critical components now standard in new RFP.

Regardless, proven or not, Gripen does not match EF or Rafale. The Swiss reports reveal that.

The most proven aircraft out of all was the Super Hornet, and we did not choose it.



IAF chose both EF and Rafale. Goddess Lakshmi chose Rafale, not IAF. So both aircraft had an equal chance of winning ever since they were shortlisted.

Thats the point. Financial logic made sure that we do not pursue EFT T3+ technology development even when it offered advanced tech possibly better radar because financial & project risk was unfavorable compared to tested Rafale.

IAF could not float a tender because there was no other competing aircraft.

IL-476 first flew in September last year and is the only competitor to C-17. Same with C-130J, there were no competitors, A-400M is still some ways off. Same with P-8 and also Phalcons.

Therefore, there is no rigid universal rule to say India always picks up unproven platform and make them work.

I suppose so. It is of advantage to us if we go for a European option rather than Russian.

My point exactly on this China-Russia deal.

This is not the first time the Russians have lost a tender and this won't be the last. The same for other countries.

The Russians beat the Americans and French in Malaysia and Algeria resply. The Americans beat the Russians and French in Korea, they beat the British in Singapore. The French beat the Russians in Libya and India. There are so many other tenders around the world today. Oman, Serbia, Kuwait, Malaysia, Korea etc and this is only for fighters.

Regardless of the Russian loss, the second largest aviation project after the F-35 is still in Russian hands today and India is a firm customer. I am talking about the FGFA. So, what have they really lost in the MRCA?

We are going way offtopic. Maybe some other time.

Our relationship with Russia is more business like than it was before. So, they will try to capture other markets while trying to sell to us. In the end the decision to purchase Amurs will be up to the navy and nobody can say anything until all the technical evaluations are completed.

Evaluation will happen if Amurs are not ending in PLAN.

I think this is mostly incorrect. The Russians are building up a military presence to counter Chinese military growth. While Russia and China have mutual interests, especially economics, the Russians and Chinese are not exactly the kind of strategic partners you think they are. The Chinese are still very far from being real strategic partners with Russia.

Yes they are far but recent events may lead them few steps ahead.

 

[pankaj nema]

ONLY 24 Su 35

This means that Russians are first looking at their own needs and maybe China will
get SIX planes per year assuming Russia makes 18 Su 35 planes
every year

 

[sayareakd]

China will get few planes as sample and then they will reverse engineer the fighter from their production line, I dont think Russian is that stupid to allow China to get into their market. If Russians do that they are stupid.

 

[pankaj nema]

China will get few planes as sample and then they will reverse engineer the fighter from their production line, I dont think Russian is that stupid to allow China to get into their market. If Russians do that they are stupid.

No mate this time there will be NO licenced production

The Chinese have been told this very clearly

Only ready to fly aircrafts will be sold

 

[nrj]

China will get few planes as sample and then they will reverse engineer the fighter from their production line, I dont think Russian is that stupid to allow China to get into their market. If Russians do that they are stupid.

"When and if China succeeds in copying Russia's new weapons platforms, the Russian industry will hopefully move ahead with new technologies," Kashin said.

Russian experts tend to think that China's ability to copy critical technologies, such as aircraft engines, has been overrated in Moscow. "Chinese aircraft engines, which are essentially modified versions of Russian engines, are way too inferior to the originals, and China continues to depend on the supply of Russian engines," Vasily Kashin, an expert on China, said.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/49325-russia-strategically-embracing-china-2.html

 

[pankaj nema]

The most proven aircraft out of all was the Super Hornet, and we did not choose it.



IAF chose both EF and Rafale. Goddess Lakshmi chose Rafale, not IAF. So both aircraft had an equal chance of winning ever since they were shortlisted.

.

India NEVER wanted US planes from the beginning

We still do not trust them completely US gets into " sanctions mode " very easily

We were just being nice to them by " offering " to buy US planes
and of course we had a good look at F 16 and F 18

Mig 35 was crap and Grippen was a light weight

Now the choice was to negotiate with ONE country ie France in case of Rafale
or Four countries as in case of Eurofighter

Goddess Lakshmi comes in Later in the picture and both planes were nearly similarly priced

It was a WISE decision made with the help of Lord Ganesh

 

[p2prada]

First submarine was entering commissioning, well past floating stage when India placed order. And it was still better than paper tiger Amur or S1000 lacking critical components now standard in new RFP.

Amur is being built by a country that has built more SSKs than all of Europe combined. Also, Amur is the export name for Lada and Lada is a heavily modified Kilo class sub.

Amur does not need proving to do. Though the version planned for export may not be built yet.

Thats the point. Financial logic made sure that we do not pursue EFT T3+ technology development even when it offered advanced tech possibly better radar because financial & project risk was unfavorable compared to tested Rafale.

We were not the ones who made the decision. It was EADS which unfortunately bid at a higher cost. L1 was all about finding the lowest bidder. If we were really worried about the financial compulsions associated with EF then we would never have shortlisted the EF and gone with the SH instead.

Therefore, there is no rigid universal rule to say India always picks up unproven platform and make them work.

We have always bought the best that money can buy. The best is always unproven. Proven systems are not the best what money can buy. Most of the times they are old and lack a future. That's the difference between proven and unproven.

MRCA was the only big ticket deal we had in the last 20 years where we pitted old generations systems against each other. This is merely because we are at the point where the whole world is currently transitioning from 4th gen to 5th gen and don't have better options. All aircraft except Gripen NG were proven designs.

Evaluation will happen if Amurs are not ending in PLAN.

I don't see why we should not evaluate Amur if China picks Amur. The evaluation would be of greater interest to us then.

 

[nrj]

Amur is being built by a country that has built more SSKs than all of Europe combined. Also, Amur is the export name for Lada and Lada is a heavily modified Kilo class sub.

Amur does not need proving to do. Though the version planned for export may not be built yet.

If Amur was so convincing, India would have opted for it in 2005.

We were not the ones who made the decision. It was EADS which unfortunately bid at a higher cost. L1 was all about finding the lowest bidder. If we were really worried about the financial compulsions associated with EF then we would never have shortlisted the EF and gone with the SH instead.

India rejected platform which had very good potential to be developed & be relevant in future. They fell short in making it attractive development proposal.

We have always bought the best that money can buy. The best is always unproven. Proven systems are not the best what money can buy. Most of the times they are old and lack a future. That's the difference between proven and unproven.

Sure. Rafale is unproven.

I don't see why we should not evaluate Amur if China picks Amur. The evaluation would be of greater interest to us then.

Knowing that we will eventually opt out of the proposal. Makes Amur sure loser in that case.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ P2prada

India killed China and Pakistan's hopes to get French technology by choosing Rafale

In the NATO alliance it was ONLY France which was demanding that the embargo against China be lifted
Because Rafale had NOT won any foreign customers till India bought it

UK- Germany would have never and will even now not sell Eurofighter to China

France was Getting desperate for that foreign breakthrough and hence India
got a good deal

 

[p2prada]

If Amur was so convincing, India would have opted for it in 2005.

Amur was not in contention. Scorpene was a govt to govt deal, not a tender.

Sure. Rafale is unproven.

4th gen, obsolete. We are just replacing our Mig-27s and this is our best option today. Among all the competing aircraft, we did not shortlist the more proven F-16, SH or Mig-35. We shortlisted the least proven aircraft among all, outside of the Gripen of course.

Like I said, if you want the best, it will be unproven, no doubt about it. If you want reliability + costs then you buy a proven system.

Knowing that we will eventually opt out of the proposal. Makes Amur sure loser in that case.

Maybe. But I won't count it out.

The Russians have far more experience with SSKs than any other manufacturer today. But in the end it may all come down to costs.

..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: Indian Navy going in for a Second Line of Submarine Construction

I don't know if you know about it but Russian expertise on subs has a very healthy fan following in the Navy. The above article will highlight that fact.

Finally, let's see who all reply to the RFP.

 

[p2prada]

@ P2prada

India killed China and Pakistan's hopes to get French technology by choosing Rafale

In case sanctions are lifted, EF will be made available to China. Pak cannot afford any of the MRCA contenders.

In the NATO alliance it was ONLY France which was demanding that the embargo against China be lifted

No. The EU planned on lifting arms embargo in 2004, including UK and Germany. It was the US which stopped it from happening.

 

[nrj]

Amur was not in contention. Scorpene was a govt to govt deal, not a tender.

Amur was proposed to Indian Government.

4th gen, obsolete. We are just replacing our Mig-27s and this is our best option today. Among all the competing aircraft, we did not shortlist the more proven F-16, SH or Mig-35. We shortlisted the least proven aircraft among all, outside of the Gripen of course.

Like I said, if you want the best, it will be unproven, no doubt about it.

That is so philosophical. Best is always in development. And what is advanced today is obsolete tomorrow. That does not mean India has always purchsed unproven platforms.

If you want reliability + costs then you buy a proven system.

Thats just fair logic.

Maybe. But I won't count it out.

The Russians have far more experience with SSKs than any other manufacturer today. But in the end it may all come down to costs.

..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: Indian Navy going in for a Second Line of Submarine Construction

I don't know if you know about it but Russian expertise on subs has a very healthy fan following in the Navy. The above article will highlight that fact.

Finally, let's see who all reply to the RFP.

Hope the fan following gets convinced by non-existent AIP, which is absolute requirement in new procurement.

 

[p2prada]

It was because of the Scorpene deal that the MoD decided all future major purchases for competing systems will be through tenders.

 

[nrj]

Amur did not cut in when in front of Scorpene. Plus readiness of French to partner with MDL sharing technology & production ended chances of Amur. Even today many critical components are nothing beyond experimental stage for Amur. If Russians are going to give out amurs to china then they should say goodbye to p75.

 

[Armand2REP]

Amur did not cut in when in front of Scorpene. Plus readiness of French to partner with MDL sharing technology & production ended chances of Amur. Even today many critical components are nothing beyond experimental stage for Amur. If Russians are going to give out amurs to china then they should say goodbye to p75.

That is why they selling it to China, as retribution for not having a chance in India. It really is their own fault. Amur is a shoddy piece of work that can't even make 10 knots.

 

[p2prada]

Amur was proposed to Indian Government.

Proposal is not negotiation. The Russians make one proposal every year. Last year they proposed we make carriers together. Does that translate to anything concrete? Even with FMBT project they will propose an export Armata. They have offered PAKFA which we took, later they may offer MiG LMFI even when we have AMCA planned. So on and so forth.

In the end Amur wasn't in contention.

That is so philosophical. Best is always in development. And what is advanced today is obsolete tomorrow. That does not mean India has always purchsed unproven platforms.

This is the truth about technology vs reliability. MKI is very reliable and it is cheap, a proven system, but PAKFA is both unreliable and expensive, an unproven system. Logic indicates the unreliable and expensive PAKFA will eventually be the better fighter because it is being designed to be the better fighter.

Thats just fair logic.

Cost vs capability of course.

Hope the fan following gets convinced by non-existent AIP, which is absolute requirement in new procurement.

???

Amur has AIP.

Lada comes with a 400KW system vs the 300KW system on Scorpene and S-80.

The Amur 950 has 8 vertical silos for Brahmos. No idea how many more the longer and heavier Amur 1650 would carry. Brahmos for Amur already exists, but we don't know how far the French, Germans, US or Spanish can guarantee Brahmos on their own subs and how long it would take for modifications once selected.

 

[p2prada]

Amur did not cut in when in front of Scorpene. Plus readiness of French to partner with MDL sharing technology & production ended chances of Amur. Even today many critical components are nothing beyond experimental stage for Amur. If Russians are going to give out amurs to china then they should say goodbye to p75.

I will repeat this again.

Amur wasn't in contention.

You are making the wrong claims.

Lada is already operational with one in service.

Also, by the time we sign a deal it will be well after 2015 and we may see our first sub only after 2025. So there is plenty of time for all subs to be improved upon.

 

[nrj]

Proposal is not negotiation. The Russians make one proposal every year. Last year they proposed we make carriers together. Does that translate to anything concrete? Even with FMBT project they will propose an export Armata. They have offered PAKFA which we took, later they may offer MiG LMFI even when we have AMCA planned. So on and so forth.

Ok, amur couldn't even make it to negotiation stage even when requirement was well recognized.

This is the truth about technology vs reliability. MKI is very reliable and it is cheap, a proven system, but PAKFA is both unreliable and expensive, an unproven system. Logic indicates the unreliable and expensive PAKFA will eventually be the better fighter because it is being designed to be the better fighter.

And still case like Rafale exists.

Point was there is no rigid rule to say India always acquired unproven platforms.

Cost vs capability of course.

In that case, Govt should just keep pouring the money to have tomorrow's capability saying that what exists today is not capable enough. No wonder they did not dump mmrca tender to develop new mmrca.

???

Amur has AIP.

Lada comes with a 400KW system vs the 300KW system on Scorpene and S-80.

Russian AIP is old. This was discussed before.

The Amur 950 has 8 vertical silos for Brahmos. No idea how many more the longer and heavier Amur 1650 would carry. Brahmos for Amur already exists, but we don't know how far the French, Germans, US or Spanish can guarantee Brahmos on their own subs and how long it would take for modifications once selected.

Oh boy! Navy does not favor putting attack missiles like Brahmos in VLS for new subs. Whole saga passed over it some time ago.