Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

@p2prada why would a trainer have AESA radar?

trainer???

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

trainer???

You said MiG-29UPG had Virgilius AESA. The only ones received have been trainers.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

You said MiG-29UPG had Virgilius AESA. The only ones received have been trainers.

Virgilius isn't a radar. It is an EW suite.

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Virgilius isn't a radar. It is an EW suite.

And the only MiG-29UPGs are trainers. Why would it be seen with it?

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

And the only MiG-29UPGs are trainers. Why would it be seen with it?

Because pilots need to be trained on EW.

Anyway, is this a trainer?

 

[Daredevil]

Russia to Show Su-35 Flanker and Ka-52 Alligator in Paris

MOSCOW, April 5 (RIA Novosti) – Russia will unveil its most advanced aircraft, the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker fighter jet and the Ka-52 Alligator helicopter gunship, at the Paris Air Show in June, the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) said on Friday.

It will also display the Yak-130 Mitten combat jet trainer, UAC spokesman Boris Krylov said.

The Su-35 multirole fighter, powered by two 117S engines with thrust vectoring, combines high maneuverability and the capability to engage several air targets simultaneously using both guided and unguided missiles and weapon systems.

The aircraft has been touted as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology."

The Russian Air Force is due to receive 50 Su-35s by 2015, according to various reports.

The Ka-52 is a modification of the basic Ka-50 Hokum model. It is armed with a 30-mm cannon, Vikhr (Whirlwind) laser guided missiles, rockets and bombs. The helicopter is also equipped with two radars, one for ground targets and another for aerial targets, as well as a Samshite nighttime-daytime thermal sighting system.

It has a maximum speed of 350 kph, a flight ceiling of 5,500 meters, and a range of over 1,000 kilometers.

Russia to Show Advanced Warplanes in Paris | Defense | RIA Novosti

 

[Mariner HK]

A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-35

SU-35

A frequent statement has been made that Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-35 or people tend to ask this
The reality is Super Sukhoi upgrade is mostly an avionics upgrade with RAM application to some areas but the airframe will be the same where as SU-35 is an updated airframe with RCS reduction (the RCS of MKI is 11m2 but that of SU-35 is 1m2 m sure about this data) SU-35s can super cruise as per some sources but surely has better range and payload due to its modified airframe which MKI wont get after the upgrade it will be the original airframe with new avionics and RAM so the upgrade wont make MKI better than SU-35

 

[brahmastra11]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

When SU-30MKI matches almost (if not all) to SU-35 then Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI bound to be better than SU-35

This is my opinion

 

[Patriot]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

When SU-30MKI matches almost (if not all) to SU-35 then Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI bound to be better than SU-35

This is my opinion

Though full specifications are not out but the major upgrade shall be of AESA radar, avionics & some RCS reduction. Super Su-30MKI can not match SU-35 in terms of power plant which is 117-S & RCS and both these parameters are very critical.
@p2prada can provide more insight on the comparison between the two.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

SU-35

A frequent statement has been made that Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-35 or people tend to ask this
The reality is Super Sukhoi upgrade is mostly an avionics upgrade with RAM application to some areas but the airframe will be the same where as SU-35 is an updated airframe with RCS reduction (the RCS of MKI is 11m2 but that of SU-35 is 1m2 m sure about this data) SU-35s can super cruise as per some sources but surely has better range and payload due to its modified airframe which MKI wont get after the upgrade it will be the original airframe with new avionics and RAM so the upgrade wont make MKI better than SU-35

RCS is not the single point defining factor for a fourth gen AC, no matter how much modern they may be. At the end they are stilk 4th AC and will carry payload/fuel on external hardpoints, which would automatically increase the RCS (even for a 5th gen fighter) enough for a medium powered radar to pick up at a respectable distance.

And FYI, RAM coating has been applied to Mkis atleast since 2008, when pics first indicated that RAM was applied. What makes, or rather made the SU-35 superior to the MKI was the superior engine performance of the SU35.

Even now, the MKI features an open architecture system, allowing for wide scale complete integration of components, as opposed to the closed architecture of the 35. The systems of the 35 are parallely integrated but fall short of full integration. And then there is the weakness of Russian avionics (and indeed the Russian electronics industry). Outside the massive radar and IRST performance on both the AC, the rest of the avionics on 35 fall behind the MKI on several counts, Note that even the FBW system onboard the MKI is unreliable on certain occasions.

Now, with the Super MKI upgrade, the radar will be upgraded, rather replaced in favour of AESA radar, alongwith structural strengthening to enable heavier payloads on multiple hardpoints. Not to mention even the EW suite will likely be upgraded. The MKI upgrade is fully backed by the IAF who are commited to see this go through. The Russian AF do not have the same commitment to the SU-35, and most definately the funds to make such upgrades, or to even induct them in sizeable numbers.

As such, the MKI will likely retain its dominance as the most feared version of the SU-27/30 series.

 

[p2prada]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

It is yet unclear whether MKI will get an engine upgrade, but the AESA alone will push it ahead of Su-35. Even the EW suite will be AESA.

Overall, MKI will have later generation avionics compared to Su-35 while Su-35 "may" retain its performance advantage.

RCS is a moot factor. No difference between 1m2 and 12m2 once you add 12 air to air missiles to it.

 

[Singh]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

RCS is a moot factor. No difference between 1m2 and 12m2 once you add 12 air to air missiles to it.

Some info,

RCS of SU35BM/Modernized vs SU30MKI
RCS of loaded SU35BM vs SU30MKI

If payload (on the rails) alters RCS so drastically, then what about other fighter jets ?

 

[p2prada]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Some info,

RCS of SU35BM/Modernized vs SU30MKI
RCS of loaded SU35BM vs SU30MKI

We don't have real info here. A clean Su-35BM could at least have 15-16 times smaller RCS than a MKI. This means if a MKI is detected at 150Km by a F-16, the Su-35 will be detected at 75Km.

If payload (on the rails) alters RCS so drastically, then what about other fighter jets ?

Payload affects a lot. Simply add 0.1m2 for a missile and around 0.5-1m2 for the ejector rack. So 10 missiles should give you at least 10m2. Then there is the unknown relationship between the ejector racks, missiles and pylons. For eg: if you look from the side, the fins on the missiles will give out a much larger RCS compared to a frontal view. Similarly corner reflectors are formed between ejector racks, missile and the aircraft.

On the Eurocanards, it is slightly bit better, the racks are a bit stealthier than before but the payload is not stealthy because the missile fins are RCS hotspots.

The smaller the RCS of the aircraft, the larger the RCS increases with external payload. A single missile on MKI will result in a negligible increase in RCS for the MKI, but a single missile on the F-22 increases its RCS by hundreds of times.

Modern radar renders 4th gen aircraft toothless even without external stores. In around two decades, even F-35 level stealth will become toothless.

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

When SU-30MKI matches almost (if not all) to SU-35 then Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI bound to be better than SU-35

This is my opinion

How can Super sukoi bound to be better than Su 35.? Su 35 is the new Fighter jet altogether. Its like saying Su 27 upgarde will be better than Su 30 SM or even Super Sukoi.

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

RCS is not the single point defining factor for a fourth gen AC, no matter how much modern they may be. At the end they are stilk 4th AC and will carry payload/fuel on external hardpoints, which would automatically increase the RCS (even for a 5th gen fighter) enough for a medium powered radar to pick up at a respectable distance.

Su 35 can fly at a maximum speed of 2,390km/h. The normal and ferry ranges of the aircraft are 3,600km and 4,200km respectively Without drop tank.As u know su 35'd RCS is 1s^

And FYI, RAM coating has been applied to Mkis atleast since 2008, when pics first indicated that RAM was applied. What makes, or rather made the SU-35 superior to the MKI was the superior engine performance of the SU35.

Agreed on engine part.But just RAM application on Su 30 will make is sthealthier than Su 35? I hope not.In that case can Mig 21 rcs can be reduced below 1s^2m with RAM?

Outside the massive radar and IRST performance on both the AC, the rest of the avionics on 35 fall behind the MKI on several counts, Note that even the FBW system onboard the MKI is unreliable on certain occasions.

?The cockpit has a central control column and is fitted with a Zvesda K-36D-3.5E zero-zero ejection seat which allows the pilot to eject at zero speed and at zero altitude.
"The front fuselage diameter of the Su-35 has been increased to accommodate the larger 900mm-diameter antenna of the Irbis-E radar."
The aircraft has a quadruplex, digital fly-by-wire control developed by the Avionika Moscow Research and Production Complex JSC (MNPK Avionika).
The cockpit is fitted with two 230mmx305mm high-resolution MFI-35 liquid crystal displays with a multifunction control panel and a IKSh-1M head up display with a wide 20°x30° field of view.
The pilot has two VHF/UHF encrypted radio communications systems and a jam-resistant military data link system between squadron aircraft and between the aircraft and ground control. The navigation system is based on a digital map display with a strapdown inertial navigation system and global positioning system.

The 900mm passive phased array antenna is mounted on a hydraulic actuator for mechanical steering. The electronic steering provides azimuthal and elevation coverage of 60°. With both mechanical and electronic scanning the coverage is 120°.
The radar can detect low-observable and stealth aircraft, unmanned air vehicles and missiles with a radar cross section of 0.01m² at ranges to 90km. Radar modes include air-to-air, air-to-ground, air-to-sea, mapping, Doppler beam and synthetic aperture radar modes. It can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets with a radar cross section (RCS) of 3m² at ranges of 400km using track-while-scan mode. Please checkur info

Now, with the Super MKI upgrade, the radar will be upgraded, rather replaced in favour of AESA radar, alongwith structural strengthening to enable heavier payloads on multiple hardpoints.

What do u mean multiple Hardpoint.U cannot add Hardpoints without Changing Airframe.

Not to mention even the EW suite will likely be upgraded. The MKI upgrade is fully backed by the IAF who are commited to see this go through. The Russian AF do not have the same commitment to the SU-35, and most definately the funds to make such upgrades, or to even induct them in sizeable numbers.

Dude see i like Su 30 mki but its the fact that Su 35 is the Next version of Su 27.Its in diffrent legue. Su 35 already ordered by russians and Chnese and many will join them including all Su 27 family users too.And russia is not so bankcorrupt that they cannot afford for their Airforce.

As such, the MKI will likely retain its dominance as the most feared version of the SU-27/30 series.

I dont think So.All fighters are ment to be out dated when better one enters the club

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

It is yet unclear whether MKI will get an engine upgrade, but the AESA alone will push it ahead of Su-35. Even the EW suite will be AESA.

Overall, MKI will have later generation avionics compared to Su-35 while Su-35 "may" retain its performance advantage.

RCS is a moot factor. No difference between 1m2 and 12m2 once you add 12 air to air missiles to it.

Right now Su 35 is like Su 27 when first introduced .There will be many Upgraded including AESA radar and EW Suit.If India want Su35 with AESA radar like we did with Su 30 MKI config We wil have best AC than rafale

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Su 35 can fly at a maximum speed of 2,390km/h. The normal and ferry ranges of the aircraft are 3,600km and 4,200km respectively Without drop tank.As u know su 35'd RCS is 1s^

That everyone knows. Your point being? And by the way, no one really believes the SU-35 has a RCS of 1m2. There has been no major structural changes to allow such drop in RCS.

Agreed on engine part.But just RAM application on Su 30 will make is sthealthier than Su 35? I hope not.In that case can Mig 21 rcs can be reduced below 1s^2m with RAM?

You were the one who brought up RAM coatings. I just gave you an info. RAM coating is not intended to reduce the RCS of the Flanker-H to below the Su-35. And by the way, Mig-21 even without any coating has a very small RCS.

?The cockpit has a central control column and is fitted with a Zvesda K-36D-3.5E zero-zero ejection seat which allows the pilot to eject at zero speed and at zero altitude.

How is ejector seat relevant to this topic?

"The front fuselage diameter of the Su-35 has been increased to accommodate the larger 900mm-diameter antenna of the Irbis-E radar."
The aircraft has a quadruplex, digital fly-by-wire control developed by the Avionika Moscow Research and Production Complex JSC (MNPK Avionika).
The cockpit is fitted with two 230mmx305mm high-resolution MFI-35 liquid crystal displays with a multifunction control panel and a IKSh-1M head up display with a wide 20°x30° field of view.

These are present in large part in the SU-30 MKI as well, the difference being these are from France in India's case.

The pilot has two VHF/UHF encrypted radio communications systems and a jam-resistant military data link system between squadron aircraft and between the aircraft and ground control. The navigation system is based on a digital map display with a strapdown inertial navigation system and global positioning system.

The SU-30MKI even now has an indigeneous communications system (developed with assistance from Israel/Germany)


The 900mm passive phased array antenna is mounted on a hydraulic actuator for mechanical steering. The electronic steering provides azimuthal and elevation coverage of 60°. With both mechanical and electronic scanning the coverage is 120°.
The radar can detect low-observable and stealth aircraft, unmanned air vehicles and missiles with a radar cross section of 0.01m² at ranges to 90km. Radar modes include air-to-air, air-to-ground, air-to-sea, mapping, Doppler beam and synthetic aperture radar modes. It can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets with a radar cross section (RCS) of 3m² at ranges of 400km using track-while-scan mode. Please checkur info

The Bars N110 radar onboard the Su-30MKI is reputed to be the most powerful radar onboard any Flanker till date. And it will be replaced in favour of an AESA radar. No comparison.

What do u mean multiple Hardpoint.U cannot add Hardpoints without Changing Airframe.

I meant strengthening the existing hardpoints.

Dude see i like Su 30 mki but its the fact that Su 35 is the Next version of Su 27.Its in diffrent legue. Su 35 already ordered by russians and Chnese and many will join them including all Su 27 family users too.And russia is not so bankcorrupt that they cannot afford for their Airforce.

The SU-27 became the SU-30MKI because of the commitment and funding of the GOI/IAF. The Su-35 has a order log of 48 for VVS and 36 for PLAAF, not much. The Russian AF has no long term interest in this AC, and absolutely no will to spend a few more billion $ in upgrading it. It is their stop-gap AC until the PAK-FA arrives.
And btw, no funds for the SU-35 upgrade doesn't translate to bankruptcy of Russia. They have simply too much on their plate to be worried about a stop gap AC.

I dont think So.All fighters are ment to be out dated when better one enters the club

The F-16 and the Mirage2000 started out at nearly the same time. Does the Mirage now stand a chance against F-16 Block 60/70. The F-16 was firmly backed and commited to by the USAF and allied partners, and funding for upgrades were commited, thus continued till recently. The Mirage did not receive the same level of funding, and fell behind.

Same is the case withe the Flanker-H and the Su-35.

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

The F-16 and the Mirage2000 started out at nearly the same time. Does the Mirage now stand a chance against F-16 Block 60/70. The F-16 was firmly backed and commited to by the USAF and allied partners, and funding for upgrades were commited, thus continued till recently. The Mirage did not receive the same level of funding, and fell behind.

Same is the case withe the Flanker-H and the Su-35.

Su 35 will sell like hot cake for 60 mil $ per aircraft. And flanker H had more fundings thats why now we got Su 35 bro. And B16 and Mirrage are diffrent kind and used for diffrent role. Mirrage 2000 had more fund now its is called RAFALE

 

[Drsomnath999]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Still premature to say any thing

But Super 30 mki would be more value for money & practical for IAF than SU 35 for sure

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: A frequent statement Super Sukhoi SU-30MKI will be better than SU-

Su 35 will sell like hot cake for 60 mil $ per aircraft. And flanker H had more fundings thats why now we got Su 35 bro. And B16 and Mirrage are diffrent kind and used for diffrent role. Mirrage 2000 had more fund now its is called RAFALE

Well, what can I say. You've got it all in reverse.

The Flanker-H costs about $100 million a pop, and you're seriously expecting the SU-35 to be cheaper? The $60 million is the absolute naked price of the AC. Unless you are going to use it for airshows, you need the weapons, the EW suite and the maintainance logistics.

The Su-30MKI takes a lot of its components from the SU-35, and not the other way around. The funding for the Flanker-H improved the financial position of the Sukhoi coorporation, but saying it was responsible for development of SU-35 is a little too much.

Both the Mirage and the F-16 were developed for the same role, with similar specifications. The next comment is weird, at best. Rafale is a completely different product.
Its like saying F16 is responsible for F-35 or SU-27 became PAKFA.