Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Sridhar_TN]

EW attack needs hell lot of power to powerup the additional jammers they are using. Single engined tejas, howmuch power it can generate?
Also it needs re working on its electronic equipment & connectors, since the the electrical power it transmitted to its jammers are huge, regular electrical wires will burn. The highpower rated wires add the weight.
The EW attack aircraft needs to travel along with deep strike, medium fighter & low tier aircraft like tejas deoends upon mission. So the EW attack aircraft dies require range compatible with mki or mirage or future rafale. Tejas cant satisfy the range.

Yes, MKI’s will have a very good power output for the jags ew aircraft. But, there’s that uneasy issue about trying to coax/beg Russia for oem integration and what not.
If they can make a gripen ew dedicated aircraft, there’s no harm looking into a tejas version for naval ew .

 

[Hydra3]

Yes, MKI’s will have a very good power output for the jags ew aircraft. But, there’s that uneasy issue about trying to coax/beg Russia for oem integration and what not.
If they can make a gripen ew dedicated aircraft, there’s no harm looking into a tejas version for naval ew .

Gripen case is just a concept, and we dont know wether it will be materialized or even what is their actual parameters. The threat we are facing, and the objectives of india is way too different than sweden. They can rely on EW gripen, there Airforce comprises only one fighter and it is Gripen. They don't need any EW aircraft which exceed the range of gripen, thats not the case with India.

 

[Neptune]

FYI flying is different from doing combat maneuvers especially dogfights.

Kinematic characteristics of an aircraft degrades with weapons load . Some weapons load configuration will cut into the flight combat performance way beyond operationally permissible limits . Good for OEM sales pitch and propaganda only.

You are not telling me anything I didn’t know. In fact if you paid attention to what is said earlier you would know I mentioned weight and drag having detrimental effects on aircraft performance, read my previous post and understand the context of the arguments. Here is what I said before:

“So any aircraft will suffer kinetic performances if weight and drag is increased: the only problem is people like you don’t take into account:

1. Fuel load
2. Pylons
3. Weapons load”

The SAP pod is a ungainly design , it's aerodynamic efficiency could have been increased with a sleeker and smaller form factor.

No offense but I’m blunt and I could tell you don’t know what you are talking about. I have worked with engineers that worked on fluid dynamics. Do you ever wonder why the bulbous bow on a ship is so large and round yet why it adds efficiency? Why a submarine is so rounded, why certain missiles are bulbous? Why airliners are so round up front?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulbous_bow

“A bulbous bow is a protruding bulb at the bow of a ship just below the waterline. The bulb modifies the way the water flows around the hull, reducing drag and thus increasing speed, range, fuel efficiency, and stability.”

Unfortunately Russians are way behind west in miniturisation of electronics.

That’s interesting considering some Russian radars of similar size to western counterparts have more TR modules. The SAP-518 is specifically designed to be a large jammer with higher performance. You are forgetting how Russian jamming and disabled American electric warfare aircraft and GPS signals around the world. Syria opened people’s perceptions about Russian electric warfare capabilities, they are much better then what believed. In fact even Westerners now acknowledge Russia is one of the best in electronic warfare capabilities and countries are now choosing Russian jammers over western jammer:



Your opinion how jammers look, their shape and size doesn’t change the fact that Russia is consider one of the world leaders in electric warfare and jamming. There is a reason India is either replacing its Israeli jammers with Russian or at the least testing Russian jammers to help develop similar Indian equivalents.



https://georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2019/06/26/the-russian-edge-in-electronic-warfare/amp/

Remarkably, it is Russia that presents some of the stiffest competition, with increasing agreement among experts in the field that Russia has taken a huge, and somewhat unexpected, leap forward in its EW capabilities.[II] Although the U.S. continues to possess military superiority in conventional weapons, Moscow now possesses a critical asymmetrical advantage that seeks to bridge this gap

Some more interesting article:

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/america-getting-outclassed-by-russian-electronic-warfare-22380


https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1091101

Western wing tip mounted jammers

View attachment 45592

View attachment 45593

Sleek and small form factor with better aerodynamic performance

Now compare russian SAP wing tip mounted jammer

Nonsense. Russia also has smaller jammers too. The SAP-518 is specifically designed to be a heavy jammer that when coupled with the SAP-14 is designed to be a dedicated electric warfare platform similar to the Growler.


Look at how large these western jammers are:

Don’t confuse a specifically designed heavy purpose jammer to less capable light weight jammer. Magic....it’s a Russian jammer that is much, smaller, thinner and sleeker then the SAP-518:


MSP-418K:

And here is a Belarusian jammer called the Talisman, by your logic Belarus now has better and more advanced jammers then most western countries:

View attachment 45594

To estimate the size of jammer note the humans standing next to it

Now compare it to drdo wing tip mounted HBJ

View attachment 45595

DRDO HBJ jammer has smaller form factor and hence aerodynamically will create lesser drag and flight performance issues.

Are you joking? Did you see how large that DRDO jammer is? Do you think it’s that much, if any smaller then the SAP-518? It looks like it’s a good 8 feet long and maybe a foot or more in diameter. That Indian jammer is roughly similar to size to the SAP-518 if not larger, it may be lighter but not more capable.


The point is, Russia has much smaller jammers then the SAP-518, and the United States has jammers much larger then the SAP-518. You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[porky_kicker]

You are not telling me anything I didn’t know. In fact if you paid attention to what is said earlier you would know I mentioned weight and drag having detrimental effects on aircraft performance, read my previous post and understand the context of the arguments. Here is what I said before:

“So any aircraft will suffer kinetic performances if weight and drag is increased: the only problem is people like you don’t take into account:

1. Fuel load
2. Pylons
3. Weapons load”









No offense but I’m blunt and I could tell you don’t know what you are talking about. I have worked with engineers that worked on fluid dynamics. Do you ever wonder why the bulbous bow on a ship is so large and round yet why it adds efficiency? Why a submarine is so rounded, why certain missiles are bulbous? Why airliners are so round up front?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulbous_bow

“A bulbous bow is a protruding bulb at the bow of a ship just below the waterline. The bulb modifies the way the water flows around the hull, reducing drag and thus increasing speed, range, fuel efficiency, and stability.”

View attachment 45605






That’s interesting considering some Russian radars of similar size to western counterparts have more TR modules. The SAP-518 is specifically designed to be a large jammer with higher performance. You are forgetting how Russian jamming and disabled American electric warfare aircraft and GPS signals around the world. Syria opened people’s perceptions about Russian electric warfare capabilities, they are much better then what believed. In fact even Westerners now acknowledge Russia is one of the best in electronic warfare capabilities and countries are now choosing Russian jammers over western jammer:



Your opinion how jammers look, their shape and size doesn’t change the fact that Russia is consider one of the world leaders in electric warfare and jamming. There is a reason India is either replacing its Israeli jammers with Russian or at the least testing Russian jammers to help develop similar Indian equivalents.



https://georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2019/06/26/the-russian-edge-in-electronic-warfare/amp/

Remarkably, it is Russia that presents some of the stiffest competition, with increasing agreement among experts in the field that Russia has taken a huge, and somewhat unexpected, leap forward in its EW capabilities.[II] Although the U.S. continues to possess military superiority in conventional weapons, Moscow now possesses a critical asymmetrical advantage that seeks to bridge this gap

Some more interesting article:

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/america-getting-outclassed-by-russian-electronic-warfare-22380


https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1091101









Nonsense. Russia also has smaller jammers too. The SAP-518 is specifically designed to be a heavy jammer that when coupled with the SAP-14 is designed to be a dedicated electric warfare platform similar to the Growler.


Look at how large these western jammers are:



View attachment 45606


Don’t confuse a specifically designed heavy purpose jammer to less capable light weight jammer. Magic....it’s a Russian jammer that is much, smaller, thinner and sleeker then the SAP-518:


MSP-418K:


View attachment 45608



And here is a Belarusian jammer called the Talisman, by your logic Belarus now has better and more advanced jammers then most western countries:


View attachment 45611









Are you joking? Did you see how large that DRDO jammer is? Do you think it’s that much, if any smaller then the SAP-518? It looks like it’s a good 8 feet long and maybe a foot or more in diameter. That Indian jammer is roughly similar to size to the SAP-518 if not larger, it may be lighter but not more capable.


The point is, Russia has much smaller jammers then the SAP-518, and the United States has jammers much larger then the SAP-518. You are comparing apples to oranges.

I will keep it short and concise

In future I will not waste my time on you and neither let you waste your time on me.

After reading the first 3 para , I had to stop reading any further ,

Nevertheless in the hindsight
I would highly recommend that you ask your enginner friends who worked in so called " fluid dynamics " to explain to you the difference between hydrodynamics and aerodynamics. Will do you lot of good.

No hard feelings bro . Good luck

 

[IndianHawk]

FYI flying is different from doing combat maneuvers especially dogfights.

Kinematic characteristics of an aircraft degrades with weapons load . Some weapons load configuration will cut into the flight combat performance way beyond operationally permissible limits . Good for OEM sales pitch and propaganda only.

The SAP pod is a ungainly design , it's aerodynamic efficiency could have been increased with a sleeker and smaller form factor. Unfortunately Russians are way behind west in miniturisation of electronics.

Western wing tip mounted jammers

View attachment 45592

View attachment 45593

Sleek and small form factor with better aerodynamic performance

Now compare russian SAP wing tip mounted jammer

View attachment 45594

To estimate the size of jammer note the humans standing next to it

Now compare it to drdo wing tip mounted HBJ

View attachment 45595

DRDO HBJ jammer has smaller form factor and hence aerodynamically will create lesser drag and flight performance issues

Finally a sensible post on the issue . Thank you very much. BTW any India how soon Siva pod will be operational?.

 

[porky_kicker]

Finally a sensible post on the issue . Thank you very much. BTW any India how soon Siva pod will be operational?.

Siva HADF ( high accuracy direction finding ) pod is used to scan, locate and accurately localized hostile EM emitters like radars etc and is used in conjunction with anti radiation missiles (ARM) for DEAD missions.

It is not a jammer

DRDO has 3 types of jammers in development , one HBJ , and another 2 unnamed jammers whose pics I have already posted earlier in DRDO thread.

I am not aware of Siva status.

 

[porky_kicker]

@IndianHawk

DRDO EA/Jammer pods currently under development / trials

1. HBJ ( high band jammer ) wing tip mounted for Su30mki

2. Unnamed EA/jammer pod under slung

3. Unnamed EA/jammer pod pylon mounted

 

[IndianHawk]

Siva HADF ( high accuracy direction finding ) pod is used to scan, locate and accurately localized hostile EM emitters like radars etc and is used in conjunction with anti radiation missiles (ARM) for DEAD missions.

It is not a jammer

DRDO has 3 types of jammers in development , one HBJ , and another 2 unnamed jammers whose pics I have already posted earlier in DRDO thread.

I am not aware of Siva status.

I always thought that hbj is named Siva pod!! Thanks for correcting.

 

[IndianHawk]

@IndianHawk

DRDO EA/Jammer pods currently under development / trials

1. HBJ ( high band jammer ) wing tip mounted for Su30mki

View attachment 45613

2. Unnamed EA/jammer pod under slung

View attachment 45615

3. Unnamed EA/jammer pod pylon mounted

View attachment 45614

So whole family is coming. This means su30 based Indian growler will come too.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Then why are you claiming that you don't need to integrate both of them with radars and rwr. These systems complement each other. Okay elta 8222 can work alone but then you need to switch off your radars and most probably rwr. It's of no use in A2A role where radar is required. Sap518 is integrated with radar. The problems with rwr was solved way back in 2014-15 .

Quote your source for such absurd claims!!!!!!

 

[porky_kicker]

So whole family is coming. This means su30 based Indian growler will come too.

No idea

Though personally doubt it .

If any growler type capability is to be developed it makes sense to do it in homegrown platforms because we have access to all data of the said platforms.

Most probably IMO MWF , ORCA will have growler type versions.

Growler is a deep and highly customised variant , only physically it is similar to super hornets.

 

[Gaurav Rai]

So jao bhai logon. Have a good night

 

[Neptune]

I will keep it short and concise

In future I will not waste my time on you and neither let you waste your time on me.

After reading the first 3 para , I had to stop reading any further ,

Nevertheless in the hindsight
I would highly recommend that you ask your enginner friends who worked in so called " fluid dynamics " to explain to you the difference between hydrodynamics and aerodynamics. Will do you lot of good.

No hard feelings bro . Good luck

I don’t think so, firstly you quoted me first, then ran away so don’t play games of ‘not wasting anyone’s time’. You clearly wasted my time; moreover, don’t run or be so condescending especially when you failed to challenge me. You made arguments now defend them instead of ranting about not wasting any bodies time. This is supposed to be a military forum and your response was basically, ‘I stopped reading your post after the third paragraph’. it obviously shows you aren’t knowledgeable and can not defend your points. The most impressive thing you did was attack a miss spelled word




Your original arguments/my responses:



1. You insinuated I don’t know much about weight and aerodynamic and how they effect performance:


My response, I quoted myself talking talking about weight and aerodynamics.

2. Russian jammers are too big:

My response was to show examples of smaller Russian jammers as well as explaining the difference between large purpose built jammers for large aircraft like the SAP-518 and smaller jammers like the MSP-418K for Mig-29s.


3. Western and Indian Jammers are smaller:


My response was to show you large western jammers in such aircraft as the Growler, which has 5 jammers! Then I obviously had to point out that the DRDO jammer which is likely modeled off the SAP-518 was about equal in size to the SAP-518.


Russian electrics are too big and crude:


Clearly you were eluding that Russian electrics sucked. My response was showing how Russia jammed the latest US electric warfare aircraft, GPS and other communications. I also posted articles that affirmed Russia is a leader in electric warfare. On the flip side how did your mix of western avionics and Indian avionics do against the rather simplistic capabilities Pakistanis had on the 27th? Is it any wounded now India is either testing or equipping its aircraft with the SAP-518.

Oh yea, no hard feeling bro.

 

[Prashant12]

Incredible air-to-air 'combat' locking Sukhoi pair!

 

[IndianHawk]

Quote your source for such absurd claims!!!!!!

Are you referring to my post?

It's only logical. Electronic warfare is future. Once we have all the pods for ew warfare we will build few aircraft for ew support for the squadrons.

Su30 is most powerful jet to support them with long range. 20su 30 ew jets can support various Frontline squadrons in ew warfare.

Just think about a 4 - 6 lca flying against enemy and one su30 ew providing them full spectrum ew coverage. That's the future.

 

[Hydra3]

Are you referring to my post?

It's only logical. Electronic warfare is future. Once we have all the pods for ew warfare we will build few aircraft for ew support for the squadrons.

Su30 is most powerful jet to support them with long range. 20su 30 ew jets can support various Frontline squadrons in ew warfare.

Just think about a 4 - 6 lca flying against enemy and one su30 ew providing them full spectrum ew coverage. That's the future.

You cannot simply convert su30mki platform to EW aircraft.sure it can be done but with hell lot of work,the unnecessary MKI cannon ( no use for an EW aircraft),internal jamming electronics to be installed, needs rewiring with high power rated power cables ,inorder to cope up with change in centre of gravity a completely the fbw codes needs to be rewritten.
And a single,fighter EWs aircraft cannot manage the battle field effectively, USN use minimum 4 growlers simultaneously for an effective EW attacks .

 

[Karthi]

Siva HADF ( high accuracy direction finding ) pod is used to scan, locate and accurately localized hostile EM emitters like radars etc and is used in conjunction with anti radiation missiles (ARM) for DEAD missions.

It is not a jammer

DRDO has 3 types of jammers in development , one HBJ , and another 2 unnamed jammers whose pics I have already posted earlier in DRDO thread.

I am not aware of Siva status.

Siva pod failed to satisfy the requirements , if I m not wrong it's now using to test Seekers

 

[Karthi]

Multipurpose trolley for Su 30 MKI

 

[Hydra3]

Siva pod failed to satisfy the requirements , if I m not wrong it's now using to test Seekers

I dont think its failed, no information in public domain.

 

[Neptune]

You cannot simply convert su30mki platform to EW aircraft.sure it can be done but with hell lot of work,the unnecessary MKI cannon ( no use for an EW aircraft),internal jamming electronics to be installed, needs rewiring with high power rated power cables ,inorder to cope up with change in centre of gravity a completely the fbw codes needs to be rewritten.
And a single,fighter EWs aircraft cannot manage the battle field effectively, USN use minimum 4 growlers simultaneously for an effective EW attacks .

This depends on what you mean by battlefield. The basic L175 jammers in the SU-35 is said to manage up to 4 targets simultaneously. Not sure about the details such as range or how it prioritizes targets but that is a basic overview. In February Pakistani aircraft operated in packs of 4 aircraft so a single aircraft with jammers would be able to effectively control the local battle space by either being in a defensive posture by blinding/confusing/jamming the enemy which would interfere with their offensive scheme, the end result being a fleet defender or the other option is using jamming to go on the offensive and cause destruction to the enemy. Electric warfare is a must in today’s battlefield. Some jammers don’t just overpower/blind the enemy but also intercept enemy emissions and create a digital library where the jammers can then specifically target certain threats at certain frequencies.


Some functions of jammers (this is just what we are allowed to know):

• Create false targets even in the thermal spectrum
• Distorts speed, distance and position of aircraft
• Record and store enemy frequencies in digital threat library
• Disrupt and overpower enemy electrics
• Hide aircraft from radar



Jammers are of course not needed but that means you better have a decisive edge in aircraft and training and hope the enemy doesn’t have any jamming capabilities and or you catch the enemy off guard. In the real world though it is essential to have these capabilities. I’m not expert but for India to dominate any further aerial conflict with Pakistan/China, India first has to get dedicated ECM aircraft, get better secure communication channels, scramble aircraft in a timely manner including AWACS and use long range missile to target the enemy. Why India never had SU-30s armed with K-100 missiles to challenge F-16s on the 27th is a mystery but that is another weakness and or lack of readiness.

India needs a mix of SU-30s, most being standard MKIs fitted for air-to-air roles as well as dedicated ECM platforms flying in a support role. Next India will need Rafales and AWACS. The Meteor is a game changer and the R-77 and R-27 give good offensive but to really hurt the enemy and cause panic and disrupt their capabilities is to go after AWACS, India could use the K-100 missile to do that or better yet the R-37. Smaller jammers are effective but limited in capabilities, a dedicated electric warfare platform will have to bring out the heavy hitters:


These are the dedicated electric warfare platforms the Americans and Russians use. Key word dedicated, these are not meant to get into turning fights.