Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Flying Dagger]

If this is true then iaf is waiting for item 30 to fructify.....

No actually the reason is we already have license to produce Al31FP while the other engine Russia is offering under new name is improvement over the same engine with new names AL 31 f, AL35 AL37f and AL 41 .
While IN wanted to retain the name and produce it here without paying the license fee again as we have just started to produce the engine from raw materials..
Russians on the other hand want to milk more money.

AESA radar must come with upgrade first..

I am replying for a few other Q raised.

IAF was looking to upgrade only 200 Sukhoi not the entire fleet due to cost. A figure around 10 bn + was quoted a few years ago, that comes around 40 mn+ a piece . That included engine upgrade and radar.

No all Su have Elta Jammers infact we bought them in limited numbers.

The problem with their integration was resolved years back and are working fine now and upgraded ones are on offer.

In engine while in general performance dry thrust is key as using after burner means giving out huge IR signature and fuel burns fast too with a lot of wastage. So basically it's the dog fights where it is more useful and during short takeoffs where current 2 x 123kn afterburner thrust is enough .

Item 30 will significantly increase thrust to another level with 108kn dry thrust compare to 73 of present one.

But what abt it's fuel efficiency an important factor as range is also important.

It will be better to pay for license fee of item 30 rather than an improved Al 31 which we are already building now.

If Russia had offered item 30 variant for AMCA it would have made more sense to go for su 57 as well as that license production of it in mass. May be we should have asked for it but for now Su 57 is unlikely unless we goof up bad with indigenous projects.

 

[Neptune]

It all begins with the Russian SAP-518 jammer pod that Moscow supplied with the Su-30MKI. After grappling for years with the pod, the Indian Air Force finally in 2015 realised it simply couldn’t use them for two reasons. One, they were heavy — and when slung onto wingtip hardpoints, they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.

‘With the Russian pods, the Sukhoi is basically a transport aircraft,’ one of the scientists says.

The second issue is even worse. The IAF realised the SAP-518 pod hadn’t been properly interfacing with the indigenous on-board radar warning receiver (RWR), therefore killing pilots’ chances to exploit both systems fully.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/how-a-secretive-drdo-lab-is-saving-the-iaf-su-30mki.html

This has already been posted today on page 148 so I suggest to read through the thread instead of your usual copy paste.

Those jammers were photographed on a SU-30mki in 2019 so why would they be abandoned in 2015? Any extra weight or external stores such as fuel tanks, jammer pods or weapons will degrade performance to an extent. There has been Flankers at airshows with heavy weapons loads performing high AoA maneuvers, roles and turns so a Flankers maneuverability doesn’t suffer much.

A numbers of countries that operate Flankers use the SAP-518 or similar sized ECM pods so it’s performance can’t be that detrimental.


This picture appears to show the SAP-518 from 2019

The SAP-518 should easily be a better choice compared to the Israeli Elta because it’s more modern, larger (size matters with jammers) and most importantly doesn’t interfere with the radar. Indians may never want to admit it but they have an unhealthy fixation with Israeli technology and probability have a strong Israeli lobby pushing the technology on to them similar with how the United States has a bunch of Jewish Congress members that constantly get the US to give billions to Israel every years and then force the US military to buy inferior Israeli technology. In reality Israeli technology is just not as good as it’s hyped to be. Americans are not happy with Israeli air defenses, even in Israel their air defenses often fail to intercept large crude missiles. Israeli drones and aircraft have also been shot down with rather primitive technology. Russia has also upgraded and replaced some Israeli avionics in the drones it purchased.

The scuffle with Pakistan in February showed how flawed and uncoordinated the Indian military was, in large part due to Israeli and Indian systems not working in-sync with Russian and French weapons systems. Radio intercepts were apparently intercepted and even jammed according to some. An Israeli Spyder shot down an Indian helicopter and Indian aircraft were scrambled far too late with the exception of a few Mig-21s. The Pakistanis capitalized on this with a powerful a propaganda campaign. I have been saying it for years, Israeli systems are nothing special, some systems are quite good but they are not anything special and certainly are not the best choice to mate with a Russian weapons platforms. Those Israeli jammers would work just fine if you use it with Israeli or possibly American radars but are next to worthless if you put it on anything else. Their drones are good, air defenses average and tanks average to poor.

These Jammers would effect performance badly not so much the SAP-518s:

 

[Holy Triad]

Mki's are supplied with sap518,but it was reported that it wasn't working very well with Indian rwr's,

all begins with the Russian SAP-518 jammer pod that Moscow supplied with the Su-30MKI. After grappling for years with the pod, the Indian Air Force finally in 2015 realised it simply couldn’t use them for two reasons. One, they were heavy — and when slung onto wingtip hardpoints, they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.

‘With the Russian pods, the Sukhoi is basically a transport aircraft,’ one of the scientists says.

The second issue is even worse. The IAF realised the SAP-518 pod hadn’t been properly interfacing with the indigenous on-board radar warning receiver (RWR), therefore killing pilots’ chances to exploit both systems fully. While the reasons why the IAF took their time remains unclear (but at one level understandable), DARE stepped in immediately, offering to help. The result is the pod you see those three scientists standing next to in the photograph above.

........A DARE scientist associated with the project tells a familiar story: Russia’s unwillingness to share codes (or its insistence on an additional commercial understanding) that could have helped manage the interfacing issues between the SAP-518 pod and Indian RWR better and faster.




https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/how-a-secretive-drdo-lab-is-saving-the-iaf-su-30mki.html

The EW suite is a greater challenge in that the aircraft's large radar cross-section makes a robust self-protection capacity mandatory. The aircraft's current EW suite is a variant of the Russian-produced KNIRTI SAP-518 wingtip-pod-mounted system, which can be augmented by the SAP-14 centreline stand-off jamming module.

https://www.janes.com/article/94143...s-to-upgrade-su-30mki-says-former-air-marshal

 

[Hydra3]

This has already been posted today on page 148 so I suggest to read through the thread instead of your usual copy paste.

Those jammers were photographed on a SU-30mki in 2019 so why would they be abandoned in 2015? Any extra weight or external stores such as fuel tanks, jammer pods or weapons will degrade performance to an extent. There has been Flankers at airshows with heavy weapons loads performing high AoA maneuvers, roles and turns so a Flankers maneuverability doesn’t suffer much.

A numbers of countries that operate Flankers use the SAP-518 or similar sized ECM pods so it’s performance can’t be that detrimental.


This picture appears to show the SAP-518 from 2019

View attachment 45472



The SAP-518 should easily be a better choice compared to the Israeli Elta because it’s more modern, larger (size matters with jammers) and most importantly doesn’t interfere with the radar. Indians may never want to admit it but they have an unhealthy fixation with Israeli technology and probability have a strong Israeli lobby pushing the technology on to them similar with how the United States has a bunch of Jewish Congress members that constantly get the US to give billions to Israel every years and then force the US military to buy inferior Israeli technology. In reality Israeli technology is just not as good as it’s hyped to be. Americans are not happy with Israeli air defenses, even in Israel their air defenses often fail to intercept large crude missiles. Israeli drones and aircraft have also been shot down with rather primitive technology. Russia has also upgraded and replaced some Israeli avionics in the drones it purchased.

The scuffle with Pakistan in February showed how flawed and uncoordinated the Indian military was, in large part due to Israeli and Indian systems not working in-sync with Russian and French weapons systems. Radio intercepts were apparently intercepted and even jammed according to some. An Israeli Spyder shot down an Indian helicopter and Indian aircraft were scrambled far too late with the exception of a few Mig-21s. The Pakistanis capitalized on this with a powerful a propaganda campaign. I have been saying it for years, Israeli systems are nothing special, some systems are quite good but they are not anything special and certainly are not the best choice to mate with a Russian weapons platforms. Those Israeli jammers would work just fine if you use it with Israeli or possibly American radars but are next to worthless if you put it on anything else. Their drones are good, air defenses average and tanks average to poor.

These Jammers would effect performance badly not so much the SAP-518s:

View attachment 45473


View attachment 45474

That aircraft is growler, a dedicated fighter sized EW platform. Its high time for us to start an in house EW aircraft program. Like awacs, EW aircraft too will perform an important role in aerial warfare.

 

[IndianHawk]

H v thakur saying indigenous radar for su30 upgrade. Mission computer is already ours so russian help won't be required for this .

 

[Armand2REP]

This has already been posted today on page 148 so I suggest to read through the thread instead of your usual copy paste.

Those jammers were photographed on a SU-30mki in 2019 so why would they be abandoned in 2015? Any extra weight or external stores such as fuel tanks, jammer pods or weapons will degrade performance to an extent. There has been Flankers at airshows with heavy weapons loads performing high AoA maneuvers, roles and turns so a Flankers maneuverability doesn’t suffer much.

SAP 518 was scrapped in 2015 so I don't know what you are on about. MKI has been completely reliant on the Elta pods since then. The pod you see in the 2019 photograph was dummy trials for the HBJ pod by DARE. If you had read the Livefist article I posted you would know that but you are too busy with your usual Russia Stronk attitude to see past your nose.

BTW, the other photo you posted with SAP 518 that you said was from 2019...

I pulled it off of another forum post dated 2015. Everything you have said is a lie.

The facts are...

- SAP 518 removed in 2015

- Elta pods replaced them

- 2019 HBJ pod conducted dummy trials

When Indigenous Su-30 upgrade is complete it will include HBJ which will tie in RWR to take full advantage of indigenous capabilities. India is beyong Russian avionics.

These Jammers would effect performance badly not so much the SAP-518s:

You really want to compare the Growler's area jamming pods to the SAP 518 self defence jammer?

 

[abhay rajput]

SAP 518 was scrapped in 2015 so I don't know what you are on about. MKI has been completely reliant on the Elta pods since then. The pod you see in the 2019 photograph was dummy trials for the HBJ pod by DARE. If you had read the Livefist article I posted you would know that but you are too busy with your usual Russia Stronk attitude to see past your nose.

BTW, the other photo you posted with SAP 518 that you said was from 2019...

I pulled it off of another forum post dated 2015. Everything you have said is a lie.

The facts are...

- SAP 518 removed in 2015

- Elta pods replaced them

- 2019 HBJ pod conducted dummy trials

When Indigenous Su-30 upgrade is complete it will include HBJ which will tie in RWR to take full advantage of indigenous capabilities. India is beyong Russian avionics.



You really want to compare the Growler's area jamming pods to the SAP 518 self defence jammer?

Go check IAF tweet of March this year and see su30 with r27 , and sap518 on wingtip. Elta jammer is useless when radar is on and it never integrated well with rwr . Majority of elta jammer are on mig21, mig29 k of navy and some with jaguar .

 

[IndianHawk]

We had issues with both probably. Sap518 is too heavy for the job. But it works unless su30 is at near max payload.
And elta had isssue with rwr.

Anyway our won jammer pod is in trials now and may become operational soon. Ending all problems.

 

[abhay rajput]

We had issues with both probably. Sap518 is too heavy for the job. But it works unless su30 is at near max payload.
And elta had isssue with rwr.

Anyway our won jammer pod is in trials now and may become operational soon. Ending all problems.

Who told you that su30 can't carry it's payload with sap518. Here is the image of su30mkm it is carrying 4 kh31, 2 r77 , and 2 more r77 between the engines too.

Just for my information where did you get our jammer pod is in trials huh..?
Lastly my friend sap518 was available only at 2015 . On top of that sap518 was not deployed during balakot. It was deployed after that because those su30 weren't Integrated with sap518.

 

[IndianHawk]

Who told you that su30 can't carry it's payload with sap518. Here is the image of su30mkm it is carrying 4 kh31, 2 r77 , and 2 more r77 between the engines too.
View attachment 45505
Just for my information where did you get our jammer pod is in trials huh..?

It's a very light load for su30mki . Not much problem at this load. Still dog fight performance will be affected by heavy pods as was reported by scientists .

Our own pod has been in trails for sometime now. Search this forum or BRF and you will even find a pic of su30 with HBJ pod.

 

[abhay rajput]

It's a very light load for su30mki . Not much problem at this load. Still dog fight performance will be affected by heavy pods as was reported by scientists .

Our own pod has been in trails for sometime now. Search this forum or BRF and you will even find a pic of su30 with HBJ pod.

At that point su30 had fire it's BVR missiles so not much effect in dogfight. Secondly I don't like that forum because of its design, it's sh*t . I will take your word for that but it will not see possible service until su30 upgrade.

 

[Armand2REP]

Go check IAF tweet of March this year and see su30 with r27 , and sap518 on wingtip. Elta jammer is useless when radar is on and it never integrated well with rwr . Majority of elta jammer are on mig21, mig29 k of navy and some with jaguar .

It is from captive trials of HBJ, that is why it has a full A2A load out in the picture. It doesn't normally fly like that unless on high alert.

 

[abhay rajput]

It is from captive trials of HBJ, that is why it has a full A2A load out in the picture. It doesn't normally fly like that unless on high alert.

My comments was only about your comment " sap518 was removed from su30 in 2015"

 

[Neptune]

SAP 518 was scrapped in 2015 so I don't know what you are on about. MKI has been completely reliant on the Elta pods since then. The pod you see in the 2019 photograph was dummy trials for the HBJ pod by DARE. If you had read the Livefist article I posted you would know that but you are too busy with your usual Russia Stronk attitude to see past your nose.

Once again I will put a dunce cap on you because not only do you not know how to read and constantly put words in my mouth but you don’t know anything about aviation. Any moron worth his weight in salt would see the nonsensical poor journalism from Livefist, only guilible people like you would fall for it.

Here is one snippet from that article “ they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.”


The only problem is that even an SU-34 with two anti ship missiles, a cruise missile and 4 air-to-air missiles can perform tight maneuvers. We seen it at MAKS. Take any aircraft, install a targeting pod, a few pylons with weapons and a full fuel load and compare that to a Flanker with those jammers.....and 50/80% fuel. You really think the Flanker would have worse kinetic performance?


Those jammers can’t be heavier compared to a full weapons load which Flankers have no problems still pulling high maneuvers with. The drag, from two SAP-518s can’t be worse then a few bombs or missiles. The next variable is weight, do I need to teach you and the author of Livefist that an aircraft’s weight fluctuates due to fuel load?

Flankers can hold up to 20,000 lbs of fuel, meaning it’s weight can fluctuate (something you and the author of Livefist didn’t take into account).

So any aircraft will suffer kinetic performances if weight and drag is increased: the only problem is people like you don’t take into account:

1. Fuel load
2. Pylons
3. Weapons load
4. Targeting pod


Thrust and drag are also important, the Flanker is a high thrust low drag design, meaning it will suffer less of a loss in kinetic performance compared to a lower thrust and high drag design.



So even an SU-34 with this load-out can perform a high degree of maneuverability but a few wing tip pods caused an SU-30 to fly like a “butchers knife”?

BTW, the other photo you posted with SAP 518 that you said was from 2019...

This is not the photo I said was from 2019, learn to read. And don’t put words in my mouth. The photo of the aircraft in the hanger is old, it was posted on Bharat Rakasha years ago....

I pulled it off of another forum post dated 2015. Everything you have said is a lie.

More like you have reading compression issues and the intellect of a kindergartner. You are tripping over basics, maybe you need to order some Hooked On Phonics to help you in areas you clear are hopelessly lacking.

When Indigenous Su-30 upgrade is complete it will include HBJ which will tie in RWR to take full advantage of indigenous capabilities. India is beyong Russian avionics.

We seen those stellar Indian avionics, they were getting jammed by Pakistan. On the other hand Russia has routinely jammed American electric warfare aircraft, drones, and GPS signals but yea boast about some crappy Israeli jammers and French avionics that didn’t even play a factor and some garbage Indian comms that India was deeply disappointed by due to its ease of getting jammed.




Russian avionics and jamming capabilities have been proven to work against the most advanced militaries in the world. India can chose to do whatever it likes, if India wants to get its communications jammed and intercepted again by all means it should continue on its current path by using indigenous/western systems that were an utter failure in February. Russia has broken encryptions, hacked vital foreign assets, jammed what was deemed impossible to jam and conducted electric warfare campaigns that took everyone by surprise but yea, Russian systems suck. India has to get those western systems they work so great especially in aircraft that get shot down every month over Yemen.

You really want to compare the Growler's area jamming pods to the SAP 518 self defence jammer?

Are you really that slow? I specifically mentioned the Growlers jammers in relation to aircraft Kinetic perfect. The Growler has 5 very large jamming pods, the SU-30 with SAP-518 has two. I never compared avionics performance since that is completely classified anyways. People like you have been saying those SAP-518 pods are really detrimental to kinetic performance, that’s why I compared the growler, while I gave an explanation of weight and drag that included fuel capacity, pylons, weapons and targeting pods. People like you clearly didn’t take any of those variables into account. [/QUOTE]

 

[Neptune]

Who told you that su30 can't carry it's payload with sap518. Here is the image of su30mkm it is carrying 4 kh31, 2 r77 , and 2 more r77 between the engines too.
View attachment 45505
Just for my information where did you get our jammer pod is in trials huh..?
Lastly my friend sap518 was available only at 2015 . On top of that sap518 was not deployed during balakot. It was deployed after that because those su30 weren't Integrated with sap518.

This is what I have been telling people. Those Jamming pods are not very large compared to, for instance the Growler has. Moreover SU-30s can carry a lot heavier ordinary then just the SAP-518, ordnance that has much more drag then a few SAP-518 pods. Russian SU-30SM have also used those jammers in Syria while carrying other weapons, those SU-30s reportedly also locked into Turkish F-16s for almost 6 minutes. Without the Turks getting off a single missile which I’m sure they probably tried to.


There is a lot of false information being spread. I would be nice if people had common sense and took into consideration what fuel and other weapons play in an aircraft’s performance.

From Syria during actually combat sorties with 6 missiles:

 

[Neptune]

It is from captive trials of HBJ, that is why it has a full A2A load out in the picture. It doesn't normally fly like that unless on high alert.

And you must have been blind or didn’t bother looking at the photos of the SU-30s in Syria on combat missions flying with weapons and SAP-518s. SU-34 also have those pods and weapons and it’s a heavier aircraft, here is an SU-34, which is heavier than an SU-30 but still manages to have SAP-518 pods, 2 longe range missile, 2 short range missiles, 2 air- to-ground missiles and two free fall bombs.

Please continue lying through your teeth, it’s rather comical.

 

[abhay rajput]

This is what I have been telling people. Those Jamming pods are not very large compared to, for instance the Growler has. Moreover SU-30s can carry a lot heavier ordinary then just the SAP-518, ordnance that has much more drag then a few SAP-518 pods. Russian SU-30SM have also used those jammers in Syria while carrying other weapons, those SU-30s reportedly also locked into Turkish F-16s for almost 6 minutes. Without the Turks getting off a single missile which I’m sure they probably tried to.


There is a lot of false information being spread. I would be nice if people had common sense and took into consideration what fuel and other weapons play in an aircraft’s performance.

From Syria during actually combat sorties:

View attachment 45510

Problem is people have half knowledge and many don't have sources inside military. Internet knowledge is too much dangerous especially military ones. To this day , many people even on other forums thinks ,r27 is worse than r77. That might be the case with older ones but not new ones .Picture from IAF Twitter account was a proof of that. r27 also have great range advantage compared to r77 . If I am not wrong even Russians prefer r27 over r77

 

[Neptune]

Problem is people have half knowledge and many don't have sources inside military. Internet knowledge is too much dangerous especially military ones. To this day , many people even on other forums thinks ,r27 is worse than r77. That might be the case with older ones but not new ones .Picture from IAF Twitter account was a proof of that. r27 also have great range advantage compared to r77 . If I am not wrong even Russians prefer r27 over r77

Old R-27s has incredibly good range and even older versions are not easily spooked by counter measures as evidence of R-27s not falling for counter measures deployed by an F-15 and Tornado over Yemen. Interestly the Hauthis launched those R-27s from the ground which degrades their performance. For year people bashed the R-27 saying it’s junk, people said Russian missiles are junk and western aircraft are too advanced to be shot down by Russian air-to-air missiles. except now with cameras everything and being readily available it’s easier to see things for what they are. The Arab coalition lost dozens of modern aircraft over Yemen with the preferred weapon being the R-27. Yet we still have the same fanboys screaming Russian weapons are junk.... whatever helps them sleep better at night.

 

[vampyrbladez]

To summarize :

1) SAP 518 - Heavy (drop tank size), Doesn't interface with Tarang RWR properly.

After grappling for years with the pod, the Indian Air Force finally in 2015 realised it simply couldn’t use them for two reasons. One, they were heavy — and when slung onto wingtip hardpoints, they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.

‘With the Russian pods, the Sukhoi is basically a transport aircraft,’ one of the scientists says.

The second issue is even worse. The IAF realised the SAP-518 pod hadn’t been properly interfacing with the indigenous on-board radar warning receiver (RWR), therefore killing pilots’ chances to exploit both systems fully.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/how-a-secretive-drdo-lab-is-saving-the-iaf-su-30mki.html

2) ELM 8222 - Light (SRAAM size), Interfaces with Tarang RWR properly, full integration with core electronics not possible (source code ?)

The integration of the Elta ELM-8222 jammer too has been a failure. This was confirmed through sources in the IAF, within the Government of India and independently from Russia – as well as by Elta competitors in India. While, apparently, the ELM-8222 succeeded in some jamming functions because it could share information with the DRDO-developed Tarang RWR (radar warning

receiver), its lack of integration with the core electronics of the Sukhoi was a major problem; no integrated picture of threat and counter-measures could be generated by the system, with the jammer being used in generic frequencies.

https://www.orfonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Special_Report.pdf

Conclusion : ELM 8222 is better because it actually works. If your jammer messes with your RWR then its being more of a hindrance than help.

 

[Akula]

Go check IAF tweet of March this year and see su30 with r27 , and sap518 on wingtip. Elta jammer is useless when radar is on and it never integrated well with rwr . Majority of elta jammer are on mig21, mig29 k of navy and some with jaguar .

That image was taken before 2000 when mki was under evaluation.