Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Indx TechStyle]

Maybe you should read clearly what I wrote before opening your trap.

So, I'm I trapping you?

IDF happens to

Fir IDF? It's DFI.

be the biggest defence troll forum where the main trolls are the mods, They dont really understand whats happening but lee[ trolling, like the chap trolled here 189 Rafales. etc etc etc

Next time research properly before calling anything troll. I will explain all of this in last of post in red coloured text that why they are calling for 189 Rafaels.

I know what India spends on defence and what is not spent annually by the forces, also you might be awre that what is unused is NOT CARRIED FORWARD. Also maybe if you look around the world economy is slowing down, and rightly so. And when the economies with whom we trade are slowing and their buying capability reduces, it in a way will effect and slow our economy specially the export economy. And in such a scenario, how does it make sense to import non-critical defence equipment?

It is non- critical. Rafael is better than F-16 and F-18 and even cost effective. I will explain this also in last.

Rafale as of now is no critical, and considering the Rupee vs dollar, or Euro we are going to lose in much bigger way. On other hand, developing and using Tejas will be much lower and also adds to the so called NUMBERS OF SQUADRONS required by IAF also it makes IAF a dynamic and much slimmer force to use, operate and to maitain. Buying planes like Rafales in big nos is going to break us. Mainly because they cost very high. On other hand the total cost of buying using and maintaining a more capable Su-30 MKI will turn out much lower, except that IAF top brass really does not know how and when to order spares (this is being simplified by Defence minister and that in turn improves the availability)
There have been some comparisons of Rafale with Su-34 fullback, Full back can carry more heavier load and at longer ranges. It is somewhat between Su-30 and Tupolev blackjack in size and ability to carry loads. Also its a plane that has all the good characteristics of Su-30 MKI in terms of A2A capability, and yes its priced similar to Su-30 MKI. so there are already alternatives to Rafale, except for some reason that IAF is stuck on term "medium" as if India plans to enter the rafale for the next boxing tournament in the aviation Olympics,

Self interpreting. Now, Let me simplify that what's happening actually:
After coming out of depletion problem, IAF wants to boost strike capability.
But also, while inducting Su 30 MkI, a medium sized good air superiority capable and multirole fighter was also considered to diversify the fleet and the tender was made by the name of MMRCA(Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft) as the AMCA and Tejas Mark2 are still much away from induction.
Why Rafael is important:
Rafael is slightly better than F-16 and F-18 in many aspects plus we will get no sanctions on it like Americans put the limits on thier planes.
Such things aren't in French.
Moreover, Rafael's design is known to integrated into Tejas Mark2 as there were rumours that India is copying Rafael just like China copies Sukois to produce Js.

Rafael is also not unnecessary at all. It's a very capable fighter and can boost IAF's strike capability to a very large extent. As the economy expands and defence budget increases, and India emerges as a major force on the level of US, Russia or China with time
IAF has a long term plan to develop itself like USAF. You can read about the plan on the net.
Mods are not trolling if they are saying 189 Rafaels can be ordered.
Sure it's possible.
But if you should ask them any question; ask,"How do they know exact number?".
(Sometimes people are in contact Official Personals.)
Many members on this forum leave near Naval and Air Bases and upload photos and info collected by themselves.
After years of Bad performance, IAF has really a plan to develop itself like our Navy did. Many projects are made alive again.
You must praise the move instead of criticizing.

 

[smestarz]

So, I'm I trapping you?

Fir IDF? It's DFI.

Next time research properly before calling anything troll. I will explain all of this in last of post in red coloured text that why they are calling for 189 Rafaels.

It is non- critical. Rafael is better than F-16 and F-18 and even cost effective. I will explain this also in last.

Self interpreting. Now, Let me simplify that what's happening actually:
After coming out of depletion problem, IAF wants to boost strike capability.
But also, while inducting Su 30 MkI, a medium sized good air superiority capable and multirole fighter was also considered to diversify the fleet and the tender was made by the name of MMRCA(Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft) as the AMCA and Tejas Mark2 are still much away from induction.
Why Rafael is important:
Rafael is slightly better than F-16 and F-18 in many aspects plus we will get no sanctions on it like Americans put the limits on thier planes.
Such things aren't in French.
Moreover, Rafael's design is known to integrated into Tejas Mark2 as there were rumours that India is copying Rafael just like China copies Sukois to produce Js.

Rafael is also not unnecessary at all. It's a very capable fighter and can boost IAF's strike capability to a very large extent. As the economy expands and defence budget increases, and India emerges as a major force on the level of US, Russia or China with time
IAF has a long term plan to develop itself like USAF. You can read about the plan on the net.
Mods are not trolling if they are saying 189 Rafaels can be ordered.
Sure it's possible.
But if you should ask them any question; ask,"How do they know exact number?".
(Sometimes people are in contact Official Personals.)
Many members on this forum leave near Naval and Air Bases and upload photos and info collected by themselves.
After years of Bad performance, IAF has really a plan to develop itself like our Navy did. Many projects are made alive again.
You must praise the move instead of criticizing.

I shall just point one thing to you,
IAF top brass are on record in Vayupost video saying why they introduced the "medium" component in MRCA and that was only to keep Sukhoi out from competeting, All these years even after the RFP was issued the term was only MRCA and not MMRCA. that is when IAF prefered Mirage 2000, but when IAF pushed for more nos of Mirage that is when MRCA came into being and the moment Mirage 2000 was out classed and replaced by Rafale by the french it had the addition of "M" as prefix and the weight limit introduced.

Another point is, IAF leadership has been runnnng IAF for long time, and we are using Su-30 MKI too, why the sudden need for "Medium" plane? What medium plane were we using before that is expected to be replaced hy Rafale? the only plane being presently being replaced (when the RFP was issued) was MiG-21 which is a Light air interceptor..

Also the point being that
A) Rafales are expensive.
B) we shall have to again add another type of plane and so another list and inventory of spares and components
C) Another set of new expensive missiles, it wont use the weapons and missiles we have as then again it will mean increase in price and time (cost of trials and integration)

So any Rafale even if ordered is going to be too expensive...

Also if we are having FGFA/PAKFA we just dont need Rafale, after the FGFA and Su-30 fly their Air dominance and Strike missions, we can even get job done with Hawks and Jaguars

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I shall just point one thing to you,
IAF top brass are on record in Vayupost video saying why they introduced the "medium" component in MRCA and that was only to keep Sukhoi out from competeting, All these years even after the RFP was issued the term was only MRCA and not MMRCA. that is when IAF prefered Mirage 2000, but when IAF pushed for more nos of Mirage that is when MRCA came into being and the moment Mirage 2000 was out classed and replaced by Rafale by the french it had the addition of "M" as prefix and the weight limit introduced.

Another point is, IAF leadership has been runnnng IAF for long time, and we are using Su-30 MKI too, why the sudden need for "Medium" plane? What medium plane were we using before that is expected to be replaced hy Rafale? the only plane being presently being replaced (when the RFP was issued) was MiG-21 which is a Light air interceptor..

Also the point being that
A) Rafales are expensive.
B) we shall have to again add another type of plane and so another list and inventory of spares and components
C) Another set of new expensive missiles, it wont use the weapons and missiles we have as then again it will mean increase in price and time (cost of trials and integration)

So any Rafale even if ordered is going to be too expensive...

Also if we are having FGFA/PAKFA we just dont need Rafale, after the FGFA and Su-30 fly their Air dominance and Strike missions, we can even get job done with Hawks and Jaguars

I have just to tell you:
1. Rafael will not be outdated in any near future. They gonna remain good standard fighters even in 2030.
2. Cost of Rafael is reasonable on watching their performance and IAF's need. Moreover, we are carrying out many projects will France. Deal could be a catalyst.

 

[smestarz]

I have just to tell you:
1. Rafael will not be outdated in any near future. They gonna remain good standard fighters even in 2030.
2. Cost of Rafael is reasonable on watching their performance and IAF's need. Moreover, we are carrying out many projects will France. Deal could be a catalyst.

With planes that are in the market J-20 with its Stealth, The likes of American F-22, F-35, Russian PAKFA the Rafale is already on the verge of being outdated. The only thing the French are trying to do is put a spin on SPECTRA, which is nothing more than data fusion of all the sensors on the plane. Thus all the sensors including the Radar the data collected is processed and presented to the pilot and this system is SPECTRA, Each fighter plane has MWR, RWR etc.
The French want to use Rafale as long as they can, because they have given orders for more Rafales than they actually need. France cannot seen refusing more planes. The situation in France is that they are still using the older Mirage 2000 in quantities more than Rafale and newer Rafales are kept in storage.
What exactly is the cost of the Rafale offered to india? As you are saying that its reasonable? Su-30 MKI is coming at roughly US$ 50 million a plane or less.

We are carrying out many projects with the French and the Russians and the Israelis and even the Ameicans now.. that does not mean that we buy their planes just for the heck of it.

Already PAKFA/FGFA is on track, and these planes will be avalable in 3 years for us same as Rafale, so what is the point to buy an older 4th Gen plane when we are getitng a newer 5th Gen plane?

Also remember India is going for F3 version which is old already, and that would also add to the cost of upgrading later and which as per the experience of India with Mirages the cost of upgrade should be min the same cost as fly away plane...

So, buying a plane that is outdated in next 5 years and then paying the same amount to upgrade the plane that has doubled the cost of Rafale to the modern avatar, but PAKFA comes with cutting edge Tech, with upgrade not required for another 15 years.

Rafale is already out in a way, the French lost the chance and the russians are already agreeing for many things for PAKFA. Thus going for Rafale when much capable PAKFA/FGFA is available will be showing that IAF really has no idea what is actually required.

As I said before the Su-30 MKI can carry out all the missions that Rafale can, and rather Su-30 MKI can carry Brahmos which Rafale cannot carry, its too big for Rafale

 

[Indx TechStyle]

With planes that are in the market J-20 with its Stealth, The likes of American F-22, F-35, Russian PAKFA the Rafale is already on the verge of being outdated.

If you think that 5G fighters will be operated by every country and they will kick back 4G fighters, you must not be on a defence forum.
These planes are even not operational(except Raptor). And how many of countries gonna have them.
India will also have a stealth fleet of fighters(mixed foreign and indigenous) around 2030.


A technology is called outdated if some tech can completely replace it.
Obviously, 4G fighters will remain influential for 3-4 more decades because neither all countries can buy them, nor any country will be able to completely fill its Air Force with 5G fighters.
Even in 2050, major powers so operate 4G fighters in larger numbers.

You can't have too much stealth planes(at least not in near future).So,
a first class 4G fighter is always needed.
If a new tech beats old that doesn't mean old tech will suddenly become outdated. Usability of old tech and feasibility of new tech is a big factor.

As I said before the Su-30 MKI can carry out all the missions that Rafale can, and rather Su-30 MKI can carry Brahmos which Rafale cannot carry, its too big for Rafale

Rafael's role is also completely different. It is bought mainly for bombing.
You can't sacrifice Flankers for everything. By have to counter Su-27 on eastern border.
Rafael is for tackling F-16.
Also, there's a crash problem with Russian planes.
Su30 consumes much fuel and gives comparatively little output.
Moreover, I have told by before.
Tejas MarkII needs some composites to be reverse engineered. Now, understand yourself.

 

[smestarz]

If you think that 5G fighters will be operated by every country and they will kick back 4G fighters, you must not be on a defence forum.
These planes are even not operational(except Raptor). And how many of countries gonna have them.
India will also have a stealth fleet of fighters(mixed foreign and indigenous) around 2030.

True, 5thh Gen plane may not be used by all countries. But in War, it is important that one goes to war if they have a strong edge and powerful advantage. Going to war at par will end up with big losses.
The ppoint being that if we are at war with Pakistan or China (and for the same reason that IAF wants Rafale) what would you be more comfortable having? A 5th Gen stealth plane that can open up the enemy from the centre and give you the edge or go ahead with an over rated plane that the enemy planes can fight on 1:1 basis
Rafale vs F-16 Block 52 or Rafale vs Su-30 MKK or Su-35? Rafale does not have a significant advantage over the planes used by the opponents against whom India might go to war. But on other hand, PAKFA is full generation ahead and also comes with advantage of 5th Gen technologies. Rafale is just dreaming of having 5th Gen tech, The most spinned of Tech from rafale is the SPECTRA which is just the sensor fusion of the various sensors including Radar.. Nothing really big about it

A technology is called outdated if some tech can completely replace it.
Obviously, 4G fighters will remain influential for 3-4 more decades because neither all countries can buy them, nor any country will be able to completely fill its Air Force with 5G fighters.
Even in 2050, major powers so operate 4G fighters in larger numbers.

It is true that by 2050 the major powers will be using 4th Gen planes, because buying, using and maintaining 5th Gen planes will be high, and it will not be possible to have 1000s in their forces like they used during the second world war or during cold war. The 4th Gen planes being cheaper to buy and use will be the numbers and the 5th Gen planes will be the specilised planes that will give the edge to this force.
But if you see, we already have a good potential mix of 4th gen planes. We are having close to 300 Su-30 MKI which is more than enough for any air force. We also are going to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-23/27 with Tejas Thus we have a good mix of 4th and 4.5th gen planes. What we shall need in future is plane for the future, We already have Su-30 MKI and Tejas which are of earlier Generation, Just adding junk will not improve the state of IAF. What IAF needs is people with vision who envision how future wars will be and how those will be fought, and not the older thinking Commanders who add "medium" to ensure that one particular plane is out.

You can't have too much stealth planes(at least not in near future).So,a first class 4G fighter is always needed.
If a new tech beats old that doesn't mean old tech will suddenly become outdated. Usability of old tech and feasibility of new tech is a big factor.

YES first class 4th Gen planes are required and we have them in Su-30 MKI which have avionics which we want and weapons which we want, those are tailor made for our requirement, Or you feel that Su-30 MKI is less capable than Rafale? Just on basis of over rated spectra? Do you know of Khibiny pods?

Rafael's role is also completely different. It is bought mainly for bombing.
You can't sacrifice Flankers for everything. By have to counter Su-27 on eastern border.
Rafael is for tackling F-16.
Also, there's a crash problem with Russian planes.
Su30 consumes much fuel and gives comparatively little output.
Moreover, I have told by before.
Tejas MarkII needs some composites to be reverse engineered. Now, understand yourself.

How different is Rafale role? Now there is something funny you ar saying
Rafale is brought for Bombing, I thought it is being brought because its an MRCA. Anyway, Su-30 MKI is qualified for A2G weapons, Also soon it will be qualified for Brahmos which is a unique weapon a type that is not used by Any air force and yes we produce it and we can tailor it to our requirement. Please do advice a role which Rafale can perform and Su-30 MKI cannot? Rather Su-30 MKI is more capable than Rafale in ANY ROLE..With its internal fuel and external war load, it can out range and carry heavier war load than Rafale
For example with its internal fuel and upto 12 pylons that carry upto 8.5 tons, Rafale has 13-14 pylons but to have the same range as su-30 MKI it has to sacrifice 3 of its wet pylons for fuel tanks thus reducing the number of pylons and also effective war load.

IAF never specified that Rafale is for Western sector only, did they? Or you got scared of sending the cannon fodder against the Chinese Su-30 MKK? With your comments you do believe that Flankers are more capable than Rafale so the entire exercise of having Rafale is defeated.

If you actually look at the safety record, then Rafale has more accident rate than Su-30 ..many sources will tell you about it. The accients that happened for Su-30 happened some due to pilot error and some due to how IAF keeps and maintains its plane. So technically there is no "crash problem" what you talk of.

Are we going to talk of engine efficiency? Well then the point is the total cost..
Buying, using, maintaining, spares etc for Su-30 MKI turns out much lower than Rafale for 40 years period.
Also Su-30 MKI can carry heavier Fuel + warload than Rafale, Thus Rafale has shorter legs than Su-30 MKI
Su-30 MKI has the ability to fly deep in pakistan with full war load, and for Rafale to do so it has to have 2-3 wet pylons having fuel and thus reducng its war load by Few tons...

As I said in most ways. Su-.30 MKI out performs Rafale.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

True, 5thh Gen plane may not be used by all countries. But in War, it is important that one goes to war if they have a strong edge and powerful advantage. Going to war at par will end up with big losses.
The ppoint being that if we are at war with Pakistan or China (and for the same reason that IAF wants Rafale) what would you be more comfortable having? A 5th Gen stealth plane that can open up the enemy from the centre and give you the edge or go ahead with an over rated plane that the enemy planes can fight on 1:1 basis
Rafale vs F-16 Block 52 or Rafale vs Su-30 MKK or Su-35? Rafale does not have a significant advantage over the planes used by the opponents against whom India might go to war. But on other hand, PAKFA is full generation ahead and also comes with advantage of 5th Gen technologies. Rafale is just dreaming of having 5th Gen tech, The most spinned of Tech from rafale is the SPECTRA which is just the sensor fusion of the various sensors including Radar.. Nothing really big about it



It is true that by 2050 the major powers will be using 4th Gen planes, because buying, using and maintaining 5th Gen planes will be high, and it will not be possible to have 1000s in their forces like they used during the second world war or during cold war. The 4th Gen planes being cheaper to buy and use will be the numbers and the 5th Gen planes will be the specilised planes that will give the edge to this force.
But if you see, we already have a good potential mix of 4th gen planes. We are having close to 300 Su-30 MKI which is more than enough for any air force. We also are going to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-23/27 with Tejas Thus we have a good mix of 4th and 4.5th gen planes. What we shall need in future is plane for the future, We already have Su-30 MKI and Tejas which are of earlier Generation, Just adding junk will not improve the state of IAF. What IAF needs is people with vision who envision how future wars will be and how those will be fought, and not the older thinking Commanders who add "medium" to ensure that one particular plane is out.



YES first class 4th Gen planes are required and we have them in Su-30 MKI which have avionics which we want and weapons which we want, those are tailor made for our requirement, Or you feel that Su-30 MKI is less capable than Rafale? Just on basis of over rated spectra? Do you know of Khibiny pods?



How different is Rafale role? Now there is something funny you ar saying
Rafale is brought for Bombing, I thought it is being brought because its an MRCA. Anyway, Su-30 MKI is qualified for A2G weapons, Also soon it will be qualified for Brahmos which is a unique weapon a type that is not used by Any air force and yes we produce it and we can tailor it to our requirement. Please do advice a role which Rafale can perform and Su-30 MKI cannot? Rather Su-30 MKI is more capable than Rafale in ANY ROLE..With its internal fuel and external war load, it can out range and carry heavier war load than Rafale
For example with its internal fuel and upto 12 pylons that carry upto 8.5 tons, Rafale has 13-14 pylons but to have the same range as su-30 MKI it has to sacrifice 3 of its wet pylons for fuel tanks thus reducing the number of pylons and also effective war load.

IAF never specified that Rafale is for Western sector only, did they? Or you got scared of sending the cannon fodder against the Chinese Su-30 MKK? With your comments you do believe that Flankers are more capable than Rafale so the entire exercise of having Rafale is defeated.

If you actually look at the safety record, then Rafale has more accident rate than Su-30 ..many sources will tell you about it. The accients that happened for Su-30 happened some due to pilot error and some due to how IAF keeps and maintains its plane. So technically there is no "crash problem" what you talk of.

Are we going to talk of engine efficiency? Well then the point is the total cost..
Buying, using, maintaining, spares etc for Su-30 MKI turns out much lower than Rafale for 40 years period.
Also Su-30 MKI can carry heavier Fuel + warload than Rafale, Thus Rafale has shorter legs than Su-30 MKI
Su-30 MKI has the ability to fly deep in pakistan with full war load, and for Rafale to do so it has to have 2-3 wet pylons having fuel and thus reducng its war load by Few tons...

As I said in most ways. Su-.30 MKI out performs Rafale.

Not questioning capability of Su30 and edge of over Rafael but Tejas 2 is to be derived from somewhere man. :biggrin2:
Moreover, we have multiple projects with France. This could be a good boost to relation. It's fuel efficient.

Obviously, adding only Su30s in Air Force isn't a good idea.
And important thing:
There's nothing wrong in sacrificing some money for making the seller happy when you are getting multiple advantages from them. France us supporting us in Air, Missiles, Naval, Army and even space program.
US always tries to push allies below.
France is someone with which can stand equal. And again, Rafael will not still go useless. It's a First Class Medium Fighter.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Also, there's a crash problem with Russian planes.
Su30 consumes much fuel and gives comparatively little output.
Moreover, I have told by before.
Tejas MarkII needs some composites to be reverse engineered. Now, understand yourself.

1. The crash rate of su30mki is less than that of rafales

2. So by buying 36 rafales off the shelf we will reverse engineer important composites ?

What nonsense

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Not questioning capability of Su30 and edge of over Rafael but Tejas 2 is to be derived from somewhere man. :biggrin2:
Moreover, we have multiple projects with France. This could be a good boost to relation. It's fuel efficient.

Obviously, adding only Su30s in Air Force isn't a good idea.
And important thing:
There's nothing wrong in sacrificing some money for making the seller happy when you are getting multiple advantages from them. France us supporting us in Air, Missiles, Naval, Army and even space program.
US always tries to push allies below.
France is someone with which can stand equal. And again, Rafael will not still go useless. It's a First Class Medium Fighter.

Good relationship is always a 2/way street

We kept the seller happy in mirage upgrade

When will france work towards keeping us happy

And

Should we keep France happy in rafale then in subs then in reactors then in missiles

What nonsense

 

[Indx TechStyle]

1. The crash rate of su30mki is less than that of rafales.

No man, Su30 MkI has higher crash rate.

2. So by buying 36 rafales off the shelf we will reverse engineer important composites ?

Didn't understood about why by are writing specially 36 pieces.
By the way, Tejas 2's known design was influenced by Rafale. We had a dedicated thread over it, either here on any other Indian Defence Forum.
:biggrin2:

Good relationship is always a 2/way street

We kept the seller happy in mirage upgrade

When will france work towards keeping us happy

And

Should we keep France happy in rafale then in subs then in reactors then in missiles

What nonsense

Man, it's a 2-way friendship. France is already helping us in many things.
Please open other threads instead of calling everything nonsense.
You will get the reason why we are doing so.
:grin:

 

[smestarz]

Not questioning capability of Su30 and edge of over Rafael but Tejas 2 is to be derived from somewhere man. :biggrin2:
Moreover, we have multiple projects with France. This could be a good boost to relation. It's fuel efficient.

We have mulitple projects with many countries not just France, We are purchasing nuclear reactors from Russia, we have also leased their Nuclear submarine and want more.. We are looking for more MiG-29K for the carriers.
Tejas 2? you are worried about plane that is not there? The single engine planes have an advantage. they are cheaper to buy, use and maintain, they take less man hours to maintain. Thus in peacetime it makes more sense to fly more sorties by single engine planes as compared to twin engine planes, the cost of operations woud be lower. Also GE engines consume low fuel and in a way have better thrust than Snecma M-88 engine.
The French engine does not really have the dry thrust that GE F414 engine or Russsia AL-31 or AL 37 FU of Su-30 MKI has. It does not have the raw power. Thus if you want to go from A to B at a distance of say 2000 kms with full load. Su-30 MKI wont break a sweat, but Rafale would be sweating. And yes, the total load (fuel + weapons) will be more on Su-30 MKI than Rafale thus Su-30 MKI will carry more USEFUL LOAD

Obviously, adding only Su30s in Air Force isn't a good idea.

Why not? The French were earlier insisting (during the process) that India should buy Rafale because it has commonality of parts with Mirage 2000, thus their logic that we should purchase 126+ Rafale because we have parts and missiles for 51 Mirage 2000. And that was acceptable logical statement. But on other hand we have a proven and capable Su-30 MKI which has beaten both Rafale in Indian exercise and also Eurofighter and other planes in various exercise and we have 272 of them, why ordering more is not a good idea? Does the theory of commonality of parts not apply?

And important thing: There's nothing wrong in sacrificing some money for making the seller happy when you are getting multiple advantages from them. France us supporting us in Air, Missiles, Naval, Army and even space program.

There is difference between sacrificing some money and being Fleeced. Rafale deal is about fleecing India. In the cost for 3 Rafales we can buy abt 10 Su-30 MKI which you in the first statement accepted is more capable plane. I want to know WHAT DOES RAFALE BRING TO THE TABLE THAT SU-30 MKI DOES NOT?
Just fuel efficiency? So why not pay some more for fuel and save on the cost of buying and using Rafale?

US always tries to push allies below. France is someone with which can stand equal. And again, Rafael will not still go useless. It's a First Class Medium Fighter.

During the falkland wars, France did not supply the Argentinians with the weapons that had been contracted to deliver... That shows their reliability !! On other hand, the Russians have always sold to us what we want.

Obviously, adding only Su30s in Air Force isn't a good idea.

True, so add PAKFA/FGFA which brings never tech and a plane which brings an edge. Fighting PAF or PLAAF with Su-30 will be good but then Su-30 MKI and Su-30 MKK will in a way cancel out each other, but PAKFA brings the unfair edge to India which Rafale cannot. With the 272 Su-30 MKI IAF can totally destroy PAF and ground them in just one day.
Business is done with both buyer and seller happy, We have made the French happy by going for expensive upgrade of the Mirage 2000, even when the planes are out after upgrade, they will be outdated and we paid 50 million per plane, thats higher than the cost of buying a new Su-30 MKI, Have we not made the seller happy? Ask the italian waitress.
Business is about both being happy. If just one is happy, I guess its not business, and in Rafale deal, we really cannot be happy buying an average and over rated plane at 4 times the price that we buy the worlds best operational MRCA (Su-30 MKI)

 

[smestarz]

No man, Su30 MkI has higher crash rate.

Let us do the Math, Till now France has produced 141 Rafales,
Out of these 44 are used by Navy RAFALE M
French Air force has taken delivery of 91 Rafales and apparently half of them are in storage (new ones put in storage)
Away, out of the 141 planes produced, already 6 Rafales are lost thats about 4.25%
But if you accept the figure that HALF of AdlA are in storage, which means say abt 50 are operational then the accident percentage is 6.38%

On other hand IAF operates 200+ Su-30 MKI and all these are operational, and we have had 6 accidents till date that is 3%. So which has higher crash Rate?

Also to add is that in two of these accidents there was one pilot Wing Commander Sidharth V Munje.. strange co-incidence.

Didn't understood about why by are writing specially 36 pieces.
By the way, Tejas 2's known design was influenced by Rafale. We had a dedicated thread over it, either here on any other Indian Defence Forum.
:biggrin2:

Tejas Design is much older than Rafale, And if Tejas design is based on Rafale then as per you, Tejas is as good as Rafale on design basis, or both are scrap
Tejas is our own plane. We developed it, we tested and learnt from it and we got the vital experience and we can do ebtter, but unfortunately for Rafale it does not bring in something we dont have... RAFALE does not bring anything new to the table except high price.

Man, it's a 2-way friendship. France is already helping us in many things. Please open other threads instead of calling everything nonsense. You will get the reason why we are doing so.
:grin:

Friendship is symbiotic, If they are our friends why not give the planes at our price? Why the need to negotiate?
A friendship that goes one sided is called parasitic relationship. When you have a blood sucking eel on your body, you dont keep the "poor little thing" that is sucking your blood as a friend, its a parasite, And if someone does not really understand your interest then they are NOT YOUR FRIENDS and in defence its only business about money, NOT ABOUT FRIENDSHIP, So for both France and Russia lets not talk of friendship, its just business interests thats all

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Let us do the Math, Till now France has produced 141 Rafales,
Out of these 44 are used by Navy RAFALE M
French Air force has taken delivery of 91 Rafales and apparently half of them are in storage (new ones put in storage)
Away, out of the 141 planes produced, already 6 Rafales are lost thats about 4.25%
But if you accept the figure that HALF of AdlA are in storage, which means say abt 50 are operational then the accident percentage is 6.38%

2 Rafales collided have to each other. Obviously, it was pilots mistake not plane's fault.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

No man, Su30 MkI has higher crash rate.

:grin:

Can you give crash rate of su30mki of India and rafales.of in french service

 

[smestarz]

2 Rafales collided have to each other. Obviously, it was pilots mistake not plane's fault.

When the French talk about network centric etc etc, arent the two to be aware where the other plane is? Or is it radar malfunction? Or the radar can detect only the enemy and not your buddy?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Can you give crash rate of su30mki of India and rafales.of in french service

4 Rafaels have got crash accidents while which 2 have collided to each other(same destruction as crash) out total 141 produced.
6 SU30 MkIs have got accidents in India out of 272.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

4 Rafaels have got crash accidents while which 2 have collided to each other(same destruction as crash) out total 141 produced.
6 SU30 MkIs have got accidents in India out of 272.

6 rafales crashed out of 141

6 su30mki crashed in India out of 230

So su30mki hs a lower crash rate than rafales

 

[Prashant12]

6 rafales crashed out of 141

6 su30mki crashed in India out of 230

So su30mki hs a lower crash rate than rafales

Only 4 rafales crashed out of 141. 2 of 4 have collided with each other.

Also 3 of 4 Rafale are navy version that has crashed.

Rafale: Accidents

• On 6 December 2007, a French Air Force twin-seat Rafale crashed during a training flight. The pilot, who suffered from spatial disorientation, was killed in the accident.[241]
• On 24 September 2009, after unarmed test flights, two French Navy Rafales returning to the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, collided in mid-air about 30 kilometres (19 mi) from the town of Perpignan in southwest France. One test pilot, identified as François Duflot, was killed in the accident, while the other was rescued.[242]
• On 28 November 2010, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle crashed in the Arabian Sea. This aircraft was supporting Allied operations in Afghanistan. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by a rescue helicopter from the carrier. Later reports said the engine stopped after being starved of fuel due to confusion by the pilot in switching fuel tanks.[243]
• On 2 July 2012, during a joint exercise, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle plunged into the Mediterranean Sea. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by an American search and rescue helicopter from the carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower.[244]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale#Accidents

 

[tsunami]

Only 4 rafales crashed out of 141. 2 of 4 have collided with each other.

Also 3 of 4 Rafale are navy version that has crashed.

Rafale: Accidents

• On 6 December 2007, a French Air Force twin-seat Rafale crashed during a training flight. The pilot, who suffered from spatial disorientation, was killed in the accident.[241]
• On 24 September 2009, after unarmed test flights, two French Navy Rafales returning to the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, collided in mid-air about 30 kilometres (19 mi) from the town of Perpignan in southwest France. One test pilot, identified as François Duflot, was killed in the accident, while the other was rescued.[242]
• On 28 November 2010, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle crashed in the Arabian Sea. This aircraft was supporting Allied operations in Afghanistan. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by a rescue helicopter from the carrier. Later reports said the engine stopped after being starved of fuel due to confusion by the pilot in switching fuel tanks.[243]
• On 2 July 2012, during a joint exercise, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle plunged into the Mediterranean Sea. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by an American search and rescue helicopter from the carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower.[244]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale#Accidents

So 1 in 2007
2 in 2009
1 in 2010
and one in 2012...??

Total is 5 I guess.

 

[Tactical Frog]

No Rafale crashed for quite a while now . Learning curve, u know .