Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[PaliwalWarrior]

Only 4 rafales crashed out of 141. 2 of 4 have collided with each other.

Also 3 of 4 Rafale are navy version that has crashed.

Rafale: Accidents

• On 6 December 2007, a French Air Force twin-seat Rafale crashed during a training flight. The pilot, who suffered from spatial disorientation, was killed in the accident.[241]
• On 24 September 2009, after unarmed test flights, two French Navy Rafales returning to the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, collided in mid-air about 30 kilometres (19 mi) from the town of Perpignan in southwest France. One test pilot, identified as François Duflot, was killed in the accident, while the other was rescued.[242]
• On 28 November 2010, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle crashed in the Arabian Sea. This aircraft was supporting Allied operations in Afghanistan. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by a rescue helicopter from the carrier. Later reports said the engine stopped after being starved of fuel due to confusion by the pilot in switching fuel tanks.[243]
• On 2 July 2012, during a joint exercise, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle plunged into the Mediterranean Sea. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by an American search and rescue helicopter from the carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower.[244]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale#Accidents

One more crashed during training

And the same way su30/have also crashed due to pilot error

Also

AF or navy dosenr matter

The crash rate of su30/is better than that of rafales

 

[smestarz]

No Rafale crashed for quite a while now . Learning curve, u know .

Is that a reason to be happy? Before the upgrade of Mirage 2000, two mirage 2000 crashed in a week, And yes due to engine falilure I guess, and those are the reliable french engine correct?
We are talking about crash rate and not if any has crashed lately..
Most of the Rafale fleet is in storage. If we keep our Su-30 MKI fleet in storage, there wont be crash rate at all. And further, IAF using the Su-30 MKI almost twice as average use. IAF flies at an average more than 240 hours a year for Su-30 MKI planes, The recommended use is almost half of it.

 

[smestarz]

4 Rafaels have got crash accidents while which 2 have collided to each other(same destruction as crash) out total 141 produced.
6 SU30 MkIs have got accidents in India out of 272.

How exactly do two planes which have latest Radar collide into each other? Werent the French talking all about having all info on one display and data fusion etc etc. So they know where the enemy is but dont know where the wingman is?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Is that a reason to be happy? Before the upgrade of Mirage 2000, two mirage 2000 crashed in a week, And yes due to engine falilure I guess, and those are the reliable french engine correct?
We are talking about crash rate and not if any has crashed lately..
Most of the Rafale fleet is in storage. If we keep our Su-30 MKI fleet in storage, there wont be crash rate at all. And further, IAF using the Su-30 MKI almost twice as average use. IAF flies at an average more than 240 hours a year for Su-30 MKI planes, The recommended use is almost half of it.

Not recommended use but

Planned use if su30/by iaf was 125/hrs/ year

They are using it for more than 240 hrs / year

 

[Tactical Frog]

Is that a reason to be happy? Before the upgrade of Mirage 2000, two mirage 2000 crashed in a week, And yes due to engine falilure I guess, and those are the reliable french engine correct?
We are talking about crash rate and not if any has crashed lately..
Most of the Rafale fleet is in storage. If we keep our Su-30 MKI fleet in storage, there wont be crash rate at all. And further, IAF using the Su-30 MKI almost twice as average use. IAF flies at an average more than 240 hours a year for Su-30 MKI planes, The recommended use is almost half of it.

Where do you get this idea that most of the Rafale fleet is in storage ?? It is simply not true. The only Rafale fighters in storage are the early F1 standard delivered to French Navy from 2001 to 2007 ..we are talking about 10 jets, several of them being refitted as we speak. There are no other Rafale in storage.

 

[smestarz]

Where do you get this idea that most of the Rafale fleet is in storage ?? It is simply not true. The only Rafale fighters in storage are the early F1 standard delivered to French Navy from 2001 to 2007 ..we are talking about 10 jets, several of them being refitted as we speak. There are no other Rafale in storage.

I got this news from an expert who is french, but he is on another forum maybe @PaliwalWarrior will tell you more about it. Whatever new Rafales are produced by France are put in Storage. The older Rafales are in use as of now . Do check your sources.

 

[Tactical Frog]

I got this news from an expert who is french, but he is on another forum maybe @PaliwalWarrior will tell you more about it. Whatever new Rafales are produced by France are put in Storage. The older Rafales are in use as of now . Do check your sources.

I highly recommend that you check yours.
New Rafales are not put into storage. They fly directly to Egypt . Already 6 of them. The French Armee de l' Air wont get any Rafale before a long time, and that is a shame... broken budget.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

I highly recommend that you check yours.
New Rafales are not put into storage. They fly directly to Egypt . Already 6 of them. The French Armee de l' Air wont get any Rafale before a long time, and that is a shame... broken budget.

Thats exactly why we don't won't rafales for iaf

They will break our iaf budgets for a long time to come

 

[smestarz]

I highly recommend that you check yours.
New Rafales are not put into storage. They fly directly to Egypt . Already 6 of them. The French Armee de l' Air wont get any Rafale before a long time, and that is a shame... broken budget.

I have a confirmed source and he knows more about what is happening with the Rafales (production etc) than either you or me. so my source has confirmed that the new Rafales are being put into storage.

 

[Kharavela]

Not questioning capability of Su30 and edge of over Rafael but Tejas 2 is to be derived from somewhere man. :biggrin2:
Moreover, we have multiple projects with France. This could be a good boost to relation. It's fuel efficient.

Obviously, adding only Su30s in Air Force isn't a good idea.
And important thing:
There's nothing wrong in sacrificing some money for making the seller happy when you are getting multiple advantages from them. France us supporting us in Air, Missiles, Naval, Army and even space program.
US always tries to push allies below.
France is someone with which can stand equal. And again, Rafael will not still go useless. It's a First Class Medium Fighter.

Worldwide superpowers use 2 types of fighter jets - One heavy & one light in their Air force.
USA : F15 & F16
Russia : Su27 & Mig29
No Air force uses as many completely different fighter jets as IAF:
Mig21: MF & Bison
Mig27: ML
Mig29: 9.12B & UPG
Sukhoi30: MKI
Mirage: 2000H, 2000TH & 2000TI
Jaguar: SEPECAT
Tejas: MK1

The list doesn't include number of different jets used for:
1) Strategic, Tactical & Utility Transport
2) Training
3) AEW&C
4) Aerial Refueling
5) Electronic Warfare

Just think of the logistical nightmare for maintaining spares & kits of so many different jets.

And you want to add ONE more

Solution is to retire Migs, Mirages & Jaguars and have only Su30MKI with Tejas in the inventory.

Sent from my Lenovo A7010a48 using Tapatalk

 

[gadeshi]

Worldwide superpowers use 2 types of fighter jets - One heavy & one light in their Air force.
USA : F15 & F16
Russia : Su27 & Mig29
No Air force uses as many completely different fighter jets as IAF:
Mig21: MF & Bison
Mig27: ML
Mig29: 9.12B & UPG
Sukhoi30: MKI
Mirage: 2000H, 2000TH & 2000TI
Jaguar: SEPECAT
Tejas: MK1

The list doesn't include number of different jets used for:
1) Strategic, Tactical & Utility Transport
2) Training
3) AEW&C
4) Aerial Refueling
5) Electronic Warfare

Just think of the logistical nightmare for maintaining spares & kits of so many different jets.

And you want to add ONE more

Solution is to retire Migs, Mirages & Jaguars and have only Su30MKI with Tejas in the inventory.

Sent from my Lenovo A7010a48 using Tapatalk

Completely agreed!
Except for MiG-29 (9-12B). B is simplified version for general export. IAF has 9-12A. A is full version for close allies and Warsow Pact.
India is a close ally so it has 9-12A.

As for the others, completely true. Especially must be read by both sides fanboys in Know Your Rafale thread


Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[mahesh]

To have just sukhoi MKI and Tejas, can tejas successfully perform every tasks like interception and dog fight ?

 

[garg_bharat]

@Kharavela, I think there is value in keeping planes like Mig-21M, Mig-21bis, and Mig-27 in storage, even if these are withdrawn from active service. We can use such planes as bomb trucks or drones if needed.

I agree that time has come to retire Mig-21 and Mig-27. However production rate of new planes has to go much higher to accomplish this.

 

[kstriya]

To have just sukhoi MKI and Tejas, can tejas successfully perform every tasks like interception and dog fight ?

Mig 21 was a interception jet for which Tejas is the replacement. Tejas has been designed to be a multirole light combat aircraft, which it has proved with firing of R77 and will also have indigenous BVR Astra. It is combat proven now. With AESA it will be a very potent interceptor. Tejas has very RCS which makes it near stealth aircraft with a bigger nose cone it will house a bigger AESA and in return will be able to detect enemy aircraft at longer ranges and have a lock on with a BVR. The aircrafts in Indian vicinity except for chinki J20 or 31 will be at risk against Tejas.

 

[Kharavela]

To have just sukhoi MKI and Tejas, can tejas successfully perform every tasks like interception and dog fight ?

Prior to Bahrain Air Show, "Chair Marshals" were casting similar doubts regarding flight capabilities of Tejas. The performance of Tejas has silenced all such gossips.

Therefore, request you to not form opinions before seeing the actual performance of Tejas in various tasks.

No aircraft can perform all tasks single handedly. Tactics are developed & improved upon for different scenarios like dogfight & interception.

I believe, Tejas should adapt hunting tactics of "Pack of Hyenas"; i.e. always hunt in groups. One lion doesn't stand a chance when faced with pack of Hyenas.

For that to happen, Tejas should be inducted in numbers; not less than 25-30 squadrons. Pinned my hope on Raksha Mantri Parrikar...

 

[Kharavela]

@Kharavela, I think there is value in keeping planes like Mig-21M, Mig-21bis, and Mig-27 in storage, even if these are withdrawn from active service. We can use such planes as bomb trucks or drones if needed.

I agree that time has come to retire Mig-21 and Mig-27. However production rate of new planes has to go much higher to accomplish this.

Absolutely right, Saar. I've expressed the same opinion a year ago in this very forum to use older airframes of Mig21 as pilotless bomb trucks / UCAV.

 

[smestarz]

Worldwide superpowers use 2 types of fighter jets - One heavy & one light in their Air force.
USA : F15 & F16
Russia : Su27 & Mig29
No Air force uses as many completely different fighter jets as IAF:
Mig21: MF & Bison
Mig27: ML
Mig29: 9.12B & UPG
Sukhoi30: MKI
Mirage: 2000H, 2000TH & 2000TI
Jaguar: SEPECAT
Tejas: MK1

The list doesn't include number of different jets used for:
1) Strategic, Tactical & Utility Transport
2) Training
3) AEW&C
4) Aerial Refueling
5) Electronic Warfare

Just think of the logistical nightmare for maintaining spares & kits of so many different jets.

And you want to add ONE more

Solution is to retire Migs, Mirages & Jaguars and have only Su30MKI with Tejas in the inventory.

Sent from my Lenovo A7010a48 using Tapatalk

Actually I may not fully agree with what you say, but here are some pointers.
The relationship between F-15 and F-16 is good as F-16 is single engine MRCA and F-15 has evolved from Air superiority plane to now almost an MRCA. The Russian relationship of MiG-29 and Su-27/30 is a little bit confusing me. Just that one is heavier and long range MRCA and other being medium range plane

Indian ordering is based on the 70s and 80s logic where it was important to have specialied planes for mission

So, MiG-29 air interceptor,
Mig 27,, ground attack
MiG-29 air superiority,
Jaguar == Deep strike
Mirage 2000 Nuclear strike..
Su-30 MKI Air dominance,,,

Actually, IAF was happy with MiG-29, but when they saw the capability of Su-30 , they were sure that this is the plane they want in more quantity than MiG-29 and thus the MiG-29 were purchased in limited nos.
Arrival of Su-27 on the scene has killed the orders for MiG-29 in many markets.

Based on the "wisdom" of IAF top brass they wanted specialised planes for each role and they never truly realised the scope and need of MRCA till after the kargil war. And when they realised it their record was stuck on "buying an MRCA" rather than seeing what planes they have and could those be developed further to handle different roles. Now both MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI have all sort of weapons qualifed for them including A2G and ARM weapons.

Tejas should in a way replace MiG-21 and Mig 27 to start with and then later Jaguars and Mirage 2000 as time goes on (with the Mk2 versions

Thus the IAF then may have 4 planes with clear weight requirement of IAF
Tejas Light MRCA
MiG-29 Medium MRCA
Su-30 MKI, Heavy MRCA
PAKFA/FGFA = Stealth MRCA

And for roles,
Tejas will handle air interception, ground attack,
MiG-29 , Air superiority, Deep strike, (ground attack if required)
Su-30 MKI. Air dominance, SEAD/DEAD, Deep Strike, nuclear strike..
PAKFA/FGFA - SEAD/DEAD, Deep strike and air superority.

 

[smestarz]

I highly recommend that you check yours.
New Rafales are not put into storage. They fly directly to Egypt . Already 6 of them. The French Armee de l' Air wont get any Rafale before a long time, and that is a shame... broken budget.

So what was going to the storage is now going to Egypt,,, A plane roughly needs 2-3 years to produce, How long before was the egyptian deal made?

 

[smestarz]

Mig 21 was a interception jet for which Tejas is the replacement. Tejas has been designed to be a multirole light combat aircraft, which it has proved with firing of R77 and will also have indigenous BVR Astra. It is combat proven now. With AESA it will be a very potent interceptor. Tejas has very RCS which makes it near stealth aircraft with a bigger nose cone it will house a bigger AESA and in return will be able to detect enemy aircraft at longer ranges and have a lock on with a BVR. The aircrafts in Indian vicinity except for chinki J20 or 31 will be at risk against Tejas.

Well even planes like rafale which have smaller nose and hence smaller radar could also be on the receiving end..

 

[Kharavela]

Actually I may not fully agree with what you say, but here are some pointers.
The relationship between F-15 and F-16 is good as F-16 is single engine MRCA and F-15 has evolved from Air superiority plane to now almost an MRCA. The Russian relationship of MiG-29 and Su-27/30 is a little bit confusing me. Just that one is heavier and long range MRCA and other being medium range plane.

Please overlook single engine - double engine relationship & look at their size.
Mig29 is a match for F16 &
Su27/30 is more than a match for F15 in their roles and capabilities.

Indian ordering is based on the 70s and 80s logic where it was important to have specialized planes for mission

So, MiG-21 air interceptor,
Mig 27,, ground attack
MiG-29 air superiority,
Jaguar == Deep strike
Mirage 2000 Nuclear strike..
Su-30 MKI Air dominance,,,

With the same logical brain, they killed HF24-Marut & orphaned indigenous jet engine project. What can I say more about those fantastic strategists ?

Based on the "wisdom" of IAF top brass they wanted specialised planes for each role and they never truly realised the scope and need of MRCA till after the kargil war. And when they realised it their record was stuck on "buying an MRCA" rather than seeing what planes they have and could those be developed further to handle different roles. Now both MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI have all sort of weapons qualified for them including A2G and ARM weapons.

That's why I prefer to call them "Chair Marshals".

Tejas should in a way replace MiG-21 and Mig 27 to start with and then later Jaguars and Mirage 2000 as time goes on (with the Mk2 versions

Hundred percent agree with you.

Thus the IAF then may have 4 planes with clear weight requirement of IAF
Tejas Light MRCA
MiG-29 Medium MRCA
Su-30 MKI, Heavy MRCA
PAKFA/FGFA = Stealth MRCA

Please don't take this otherwise, but are we talking of a Boxing match ? From when did fighter jets are categorized on the basis of their weight ? They are categorized on their roles & capabilities, which you have done below.

And for roles,
Tejas will handle air interception, ground attack,
MiG-29 , Air superiority, Deep strike, (ground attack if required)
Su-30 MKI. Air dominance, SEAD/DEAD, Deep Strike, nuclear strike..
PAKFA/FGFA - SEAD/DEAD, Deep strike and air superority.

Though I have enough respect for Mig29 as a fighter par excellence, I don't think IAF requires the bird. Rather, Mig29K is required in Navy.

Can't Su30MKI perform the tasks of Mig29 such as Air Superiority, Deep Strike, Ground Attack etc ? I believe Su30MKI can do them better. So where is the need to have both ?

PAKFA / FGFA is still a distant dream. So let's not discuss that.