Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[SajeevJino]

Are the planes fueled by fuel trucks? or some other way?

the ruskies

Dutch

In Amrika It's different

 

[smestarz]

the ruskies

Dutch

In Amrika It's different

So then the issue of chips in fuel, can it not be from the trucks that fuel the planes?

 

[sgarg]

So then the issue of chips in fuel, can it not be from the trucks that fuel the planes?

It is not the fuel, it is oil. Fuel and oil are different things.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Got solid estimate then feel free to post one ..

Sir Those are all rough estimation only

 

[sorcerer]

India's Mighty Su-30MKI Fighter Jets Have a Big Problem | RealClearDefense

So what exactly is wrong with the engines? We have a pretty good idea.


Parrikar attributed the failures to faulty bearings that contaminated the plane's oil supply. It seems that metal fatigue led to tiny pieces of metal shearing off the friction-reducing bearings, which then entered the oil system.

This accounted for 33 of 69 engine failures.

Another 11 failures were the result of engine vibrations, while eight more arose from a lack of pressure in that same lubricating oil. New Delhi has not revealed the cause for the remaining 17 incidents.

The Air Force responded by taking the issue up with NPO Saturn, the Russian manufacturer. According to Parrikar, the company has come up with nine different modifications to help solve the problems.

India has already incorporated these "fixes" into 25 engines built at its plant in Koraput. In the future, the engines should benefit from an improved lubrication system, superior-quality oil and bearings that are a better fit.

However, a more general worry for the Air Force is the poor serviceability of the Su-30MKI fleet"Š—"Šmeaning the number of aircraft actually available for operations on a daily basis.

Based on figures given by Parrikar, only 110 Su-30MKIs are "operationally available." From a total of more than 200 aircraft that Irkut and HAL had delivered by February 2015, that means 56 percent are ready at any given time.

India's Su-30MKI fleet has suffered five crashes since 2009.

To be sure, it's not a great record, but it's also not notably bad"Š—"Šespecially when compared with the attrition rates of the Indian Air Force's older fighters. It's unclear what role, if any, the engine problems played in these accidents.

 

[sorcerer]

India's Mighty Su-30MKI Fighter Jets Have a Big Problem | RealClearDefense

So what exactly is wrong with the engines? We have a pretty good idea.


Parrikar attributed the failures to faulty bearings that contaminated the plane's oil supply. It seems that metal fatigue led to tiny pieces of metal shearing off the friction-reducing bearings, which then entered the oil system.

This accounted for 33 of 69 engine failures.

Another 11 failures were the result of engine vibrations, while eight more arose from a lack of pressure in that same lubricating oil. New Delhi has not revealed the cause for the remaining 17 incidents.

The Air Force responded by taking the issue up with NPO Saturn, the Russian manufacturer. According to Parrikar, the company has come up with nine different modifications to help solve the problems.

India has already incorporated these "fixes" into 25 engines built at its plant in Koraput. In the future, the engines should benefit from an improved lubrication system, superior-quality oil and bearings that are a better fit.

However, a more general worry for the Air Force is the poor serviceability of the Su-30MKI fleet"Š—"Šmeaning the number of aircraft actually available for operations on a daily basis.

Based on figures given by Parrikar, only 110 Su-30MKIs are "operationally available." From a total of more than 200 aircraft that Irkut and HAL had delivered by February 2015, that means 56 percent are ready at any given time.

India's Su-30MKI fleet has suffered five crashes since 2009.

To be sure, it's not a great record, but it's also not notably bad"Š—"Šespecially when compared with the attrition rates of the Indian Air Force's older fighters. It's unclear what role, if any, the engine problems played in these accidents.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

India's Mighty Su-30MKI Fighter Jets Have a Big Problem | RealClearDefense

So what exactly is wrong with the engines? We have a pretty good idea.


Parrikar attributed the failures to faulty bearings that contaminated the plane's oil supply. It seems that metal fatigue led to tiny pieces of metal shearing off the friction-reducing bearings, which then entered the oil system.

This accounted for 33 of 69 engine failures.

Another 11 failures were the result of engine vibrations, while eight more arose from a lack of pressure in that same lubricating oil. New Delhi has not revealed the cause for the remaining 17 incidents.

The Air Force responded by taking the issue up with NPO Saturn, the Russian manufacturer. According to Parrikar, the company has come up with nine different modifications to help solve the problems.

India has already incorporated these "fixes" into 25 engines built at its plant in Koraput. In the future, the engines should benefit from an improved lubrication system, superior-quality oil and bearings that are a better fit.

However, a more general worry for the Air Force is the poor serviceability of the Su-30MKI fleet"Š—"Šmeaning the number of aircraft actually available for operations on a daily basis.

Based on figures given by Parrikar, only 110 Su-30MKIs are "operationally available." From a total of more than 200 aircraft that Irkut and HAL had delivered by February 2015, that means 56 percent are ready at any given time.

India's Su-30MKI fleet has suffered five crashes since 2009.

To be sure, it's not a great record, but it's also not notably bad"Š—"Šespecially when compared with the attrition rates of the Indian Air Force's older fighters. It's unclear what role, if any, the engine problems played in these accidents.

when Rajkot in Gujarat - a bearings hub- supplies bearings to volvo, prat & whitny, rolls royce (both auto & aero), all major auto, induatrial & aero use

why dont we source custom bearing from there ?

 

[indiandefencefan]

Can anyone tell me if the first 18 su-30k inducted by the air force in the early 2000s are still used in that configuration or they have been upgraded to the su-30mki configuration ??

 

[grampiguy]

Can anyone tell me if the first 18 su-30k inducted by the air force in the early 2000s are still used in that configuration or they have been upgraded to the su-30mki configuration ??

They were returned to Russia long long ago and were replaced by Su-30MKIs. Russians refurbished them and last heard, were negotiating to sell them to Angola. Their current status is irrelevant.

http://www.janes.com/article/50293/angola-to-receive-su-30k-fighters-from-russia-in-2015

 

[indiandefencefan]

They were returned to Russia long long ago and were replaced by Su-30MKIs. Russians refurbished them and last heard, were negotiating to sell them to Angola. Their current status is irrelevant.

thanks for the info

 

[uoftotaku]

Fundamental problems with engines is nothing new with Russian designs. These issues date back to the 1st generation of jets (MiG-15 et all) which were powered by the reverse engineered Rolls-Royce Nene's. Even in those early days Soviet engineers were unable to achieve the same reliability for their copies as the originals. The issue was traced back to the metal alloys used in the compressor blades which in the Soviet design were extremely delicate and prone to fatigue induced failures. . After many fruitless attempts, they finally resorted to one of the Cold War's most infamous espionage cases wherein a Soviet "diplomatic team" visited the Rolls-Royce factory and walked around with glue covered shoes picking up the metal shavings on the factory floor which were then analysed and copied back home. That fundamental weakness in metallurgy and engine design has been emblematic of Russian products ever since. Hence why a Russian engine requires overhauls every few hundred hours (as opposed to a few thousand for western designs) is so prone to FOD, impure fuel, vibration, temprature, humidity etc; and has a useful life of only 1500-2500 hours where western engines normally last many multiples longer.

 

[sgarg]

The important point is to fix the problems. The causes must be investigated dispassionately and then engineering solutions sought.

Problems can arise with any platform. Only constant improvement can result in efficient utilization of a platform.

HAL must look at partnerships with private companies which have or can develop the required expertise. Domestic solutions should be sought for all similar problems.

We should be hopeful that better teamwork and foresight will result in far better availability of Su-30 in future.

 

[sgarg]

Fundamental problems with engines is nothing new with Russian designs. These issues date back to the 1st generation of jets (MiG-15 et all) which were powered by the reverse engineered Rolls-Royce Nene's. Even in those early days Soviet engineers were unable to achieve the same reliability for their copies as the originals. The issue was traced back to the metal alloys used in the compressor blades which in the Soviet design were extremely delicate and prone to fatigue induced failures. . After many fruitless attempts, they finally resorted to one of the Cold War's most infamous espionage cases wherein a Soviet "diplomatic team" visited the Rolls-Royce factory and walked around with glue covered shoes picking up the metal shavings on the factory floor which were then analysed and copied back home. That fundamental weakness in metallurgy and engine design has been emblematic of Russian products ever since. Hence why a Russian engine requires overhauls every few hundred hours (as opposed to a few thousand for western designs) is so prone to FOD, impure fuel, vibration, temprature, humidity etc; and has a useful life of only 1500-2500 hours where western engines normally last many multiples longer.

Yes true. But that does not mean India will acquire Western tech by magic. Your post only proves that shortcuts do not work and only hard work and perseverance results in success.
India is developing its own engines and the effort will surely bear fruit.
Till then improving Russian engines makes sense.

 

[indiandefencefan]

Yes true. But that does not mean India will acquire Western tech by magic. Your post only proves that shortcuts do not work and only hard work and perseverance results in success.
India is developing its own engines and the effort will surely bear fruit.
Till then improving Russian engines makes sense.

Very true but upgrading the skills of the technicians maintaining the engines is also a very important factor here. Many of the engine problems could be occuring due to improper maintenance processes.

No tech whether western or russian can funtion properly if there is improper maintenance on the part of the one using that tech.

 

[uoftotaku]

Touche'...but in respect to getting tech it is best to learn the art from the Chinese. For all their faults they have managed to learn an awful lot from the West and Russia through getting so-called Dual Use Technologies in civilian JV's and also by sending thousands of their students to the great institutions abroad the learn crucial secrets. AVIC for example had no trouble getting full tech transfer from GE for engines (namely the CF6 series which is based on the F110 military engines). Now many argued in the US that it was ok as the CF6 technology has already been superseded but this ignores the fact that for China, it still represented a massive leap in R&D. The Airbus Tianjin & Harbin JV's gave them access to assembly techniques for composite airframes as well as sub-component manufacturing and has quickly resulted in the COMAC C919 which also incidentally will give them access to the latest engine (CFM Leap-X) and avionics (Honeywell) technology regardless of the commercial success or failure of the venture. They also have a long history of JV's in helicopter manufacturing which has resulted in them essentially copying Airbus Helicopter's entire lineup AND getting tech transfer from P&W Canada for the engines. No one in the world is under any illusion that all this tech and know how has made its way unashamedly into the PLA's next gen projects BUT no one has faced any real action for this neither have the JV's stopped. So what is stopping India from taking the same path?

 

[sgarg]

@uoftotaku - the answer to your questions is in two parts - a. money, b. culture.

China can do anything to get what it wants. This culture is simply absent in India.

India will fail if it blindly copies China. India should look at what is possible. A dispassionate discussion is far better than an emotional outburst.

 

[uoftotaku]

@sgarg - From observing our defense procurement policies it becomes apparent that the crucial difference between India and China is that the PLA is able to strong-arm its ministry minders. As you say, the country is willing to do anything to get what it wants. Here we are hobbled by the self serving culture prevailing in the halls of power. No one particularly cares for the greater good of the nation and will never put aside selfish short term gain to ensure the nations long term strategic and economic stability. China has the benefit of having a top down command rule while we are busy squabbling over 19th century land acquisition bills. HAL, BEL, OFB, MDL et all in all its years of license production have absorbed a sum total of zero usable know how that can be converted to domestic standalone projects. So we find ourselves still dependent on the "generosity" of the our "partners" on even the most insignificant projects. Trouble is that no real solution is available...our people will not suddenly wake up and change their mindset. And money as you say is a problem, hobbled as we are with the socialist legacy of subsidy raj the treasury groans every year under the ever increasing burden of financing boondogles like MNREGA so what will be left for defense...honestly I have been a silent observer on this forum for a very long time but felt the need to participate now because looking at the big picture now the country is at a crucial cross roads. We risk total irrelevance on the local and international stage if wrong decisions are taken..or worse if NO decisions are taken.

 

[sgarg]

@uoftotaku, India cannot copy China or USA blindly. It won't work.

The solution will come from using Indian brainpower and natural resources effectively. The private sector needs to be involved in defence manufacturing. The public sector needs to made competitive. The government is taking steady steps towards this goal.

GOI has to take cautious steps so it is also promoting public sector and OFB and encouraging them to build greater capacity. This is the best approach where all stakeholders are pushed towards higher performance.

Thank your stars that BJP has come to power. This will eventually make a huge difference in war.

 

[sgarg]

Su-30MKI engine problems will be sorted out eventually. This is a very good product (China has bought a lot of them despite having Western tech as you say).

China's military capacity is growing VERY FAST and there is no way India can catch up now. The best is to let the storm pass. A flexible tree survives a storm while a rigid one is uprooted. We should be flexible and let the storm pass.

 

[smestarz]

Fundamental problems with engines is nothing new with Russian designs. These issues date back to the 1st generation of jets (MiG-15 et all) which were powered by the reverse engineered Rolls-Royce Nene's. Even in those early days Soviet engineers were unable to achieve the same reliability for their copies as the originals. The issue was traced back to the metal alloys used in the compressor blades which in the Soviet design were extremely delicate and prone to fatigue induced failures. . After many fruitless attempts, they finally resorted to one of the Cold War's most infamous espionage cases wherein a Soviet "diplomatic team" visited the Rolls-Royce factory and walked around with glue covered shoes picking up the metal shavings on the factory floor which were then analysed and copied back home. That fundamental weakness in metallurgy and engine design has been emblematic of Russian products ever since. Hence why a Russian engine requires overhauls every few hundred hours (as opposed to a few thousand for western designs) is so prone to FOD, impure fuel, vibration, temprature, humidity etc; and has a useful life of only 1500-2500 hours where western engines normally last many multiples longer.

You said it, one of the most important problem in India is impure and lack of good quality fuel. Maybe the fuel and oil that our Indian companies provide is not as per the standards required. Though I might agree that Russians do not make best engines, but then the accidents are more or less seems to be INDIA CENTRIC. Look at the other countries that use Su-30, how many had such accidents? So one of the point where in a way HAL is not responsible but it should be within IAF control is the quality of fuel they put in. Is there anyone responsible in IAF to check that? Checking these small things, we might be able to control and reduce the accident rates.
Also it seems IAF speculates the cause of the accident, and there is no real analysis of the accident. Maybe this also in a way adds to the accidents of Mig-21