Sukhoi Su 30MKI

Ashutosh Lokhande

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Nope salary is the only issue and it is the sad truth. I study engineering in JU which is a govt university and all my seniors have said that they want to go abroad due to higher pay packages,better quality of life etc.
salary cant be the only issue to the problem. maybe our indian citizens(iitians) are not patriotic enough.
you need to have a sense of patriotic feeling towards our own country along with brains to work in defence fields like DRDO.

my dream is to see a 'swades'(movie) like thing happening in real.
its not always about money. a good infrastructure and cutting of red tape with some sense of patriotism will take us miles.
 

sgarg

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salary cant be the only issue to the problem. maybe our indian citizens(iitians) are not patriotic enough.
you need to have a sense of patriotic feeling towards our own country along with brains to work in defence fields like DRDO.

my dream is to see a 'swades'(movie) like thing happening in real.
its not always about money. a good infrastructure and cutting of red tape with some sense of patriotism will take us miles.
A lot of people are ready to come back also even after spending 20+ years abroad. It is not one way street.
I agree that young people are very ambitious about salary etc. but some of these young people do join DRDO. It is not that USA can absorb all graduates from India.

I think it is a combination of factors, not just one factor.
 

Rushil51

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[tweet] <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>More Su 30 MKIs are on the menu anyway once govt revenues pick up.</p>&mdash; Saurav Jha (@SJha1618) <a href="https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/524202671582883841">October 20, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script [/tweet]
 
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ersakthivel

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Sir, I will try to answer your each point in biref.

1. Almost none of our best brains are in DRDO. If you compare with the brilliant minds working in TIFR , IISC IITs then what we have in DRDO/HAL are of second grade. Money is very important but best people do not only work for money. We must provide them with the best infrastructure where they can prove themselves. More investment is certainly required.
2. There had been many delays and biting about the bush in every ToT between India and Russia. Mostly because of the careless words used in the contracts. Again IAF has to be held responsible for this. Do not think just because there is a 100% ToT on Sukhois every component can be made in India. Rather There will always be certain items that will be imported for various reasons. Up till very recently vital designs of Su 30s were not shared by Russians to HAL. Absorbing technology is not like cooking a new dish by following a new recipe. It takes time and investment. More over capability and capacity are not the same thing. Before we accuse HAL tell me if China could reverse engineer an engine in spite of investing much more than India? Answer is NO. Remember one thing, No extremely critical technology can ever be developed by reverse engineering. What we see in China is more about technology acquired by systematic espionage and bribery than genuine reverse engineering. Please make a list of the nations that has produced a completely indigenous engine with perfect functioning along with the investment made by them towards these research you will instantly get all your answers.
3. Sorry to disagree. We are representing entirely different point of view. I find your desires to be unreasonable and illogical. Expecting something which is technologically impossible is impractical.
The chief of mangalyan project Arunan is from Coimbatore institute of technology,Coimbatore TN.
the chief of cahndryan Annadurai mayilsamy is from Government college of technoglogy, Coimbatore.
On the contrary many leading scientists of DRDO come from IIT, the tejas chief Kota Harinarayana, Even the present chief Avinash chnader.

So your guess that any scientist working in DRDO , who is not an IIT graduate is second grade not based on facts.

there are many motivations for a scientist to reach the pinnacle of his field. IIT education contributes the least.

And ISRO started earlier. DRDO stared very late in 1983.

So things take time. Dont expect any one to sell their hard earned TOT on a platter in the form of TOT.

Just google and see how much money and effort was spent on jet engine techs of different generations by advanced western countries even after stealing the core tech from world war two german scientists.
 

sgarg

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I completely agree. We need to expand DRDO as well as increase research projects in premier (top 100) engineering colleges.

DRDO is very much needed even if some research is done by private companies. DRDO provides the continuity for long gestation projects.

It is the factories that need to be in private sector. The government has proven to be very bad in managing factories.
 

sgarg

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Su-30 only bad point seems to be high fuel consumption. This can be reduced by using simulators. More simulators can be acquired so that actual flying is reduced.

Otherwise it is a fine aircraft. The engine issues can be resolved. HAL should also apply its brain to solve the problems. It is not logical to "blame" OEM when TOT is already done. Who knows if manufacturing at HAL is also a contributing factor. We need to be sure.
 

Ripples

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The chief of mangalyan project Arunan is from Coimbatore institute of technology,Coimbatore TN.
the chief of cahndryan Annadurai mayilsamy is from Government college of technoglogy, Coimbatore.
On the contrary many leading scientists of DRDO come from IIT, the tejas chief Kota Harinarayana, Even the present chief Avinash chnader.

So your guess that any scientist working in DRDO , who is not an IIT graduate is second grade not based on facts.

there are many motivations for a scientist to reach the pinnacle of his field. IIT education contributes the least.

And ISRO started earlier. DRDO stared very late in 1983.

So things take time. Dont expect any one to sell their hard earned TOT on a platter in the form of TOT.

Just google and see how much money and effort was spent on jet engine techs of different generations by advanced western countries even after stealing the core tech from world war two german scientists.
The point of this post is obscure to me to say the least. I am just trying to pin point ( rather reiterate ) what i wanted to convey. IITians are no GOD sent. On average somewhat of the international standard. The best institutes are TIFR/HRI/IMSC. The kind of salary that DRDO/ISRO pays it is impossible that any top class (INDIAN scientist ) will ever be generously offering their services unless they are pursued by something unofficially. You wont have to search the google , just search this forum and see what i told about jet engine... It appeared as if you just copy pasted a line from my earlier post. Anyway almost none of the physicists working in DRDO/ISRO ever made any genuinely highly quality paper. Hardly ever received a citation by anyone since they mostly embark upon reinvention of the wheels.All this happening in spite of the fact that there are at least 10 physicists and 12 mathematicians that exist in India who are considered the top authorities by the highest international standard. If they can somehow be perused by the GOI to sacrifice their field of interest for the betterment of their motherland then only there is a chance. One such mind is better than a few hundreds consuming the resources at DRDO. They are average ones at best. With these level of scientists we will never be able to catch up with China. ToT is our only hope.
 
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sgarg

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Re-invention of the wheel is very much required. India has to reduce the technology gap.

Most military technologies are controlled tightly by the country that invented it.

We cannot keep on buying from abroad in the name of "top class research". The grunt work is also important.

Honestly I do not care who stay or who leaves India. I care for government policy. The government should be clear that every import has to be replaced with a locally made product.

To make products locally, a lot of technologies have to be developed. It requires building instruments and machine tools, not only final products. An entire value chain is needed.
 
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sgarg

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Today defence production is impaired by amount of fx that the government can spare in a given year. This is very bad planning.

The success of long gestation projects rests on stability.

Any company, even public sector like HAL, gets scared when user does not have clarity or government is not clear, as no company wants to lose money.

The forces make their planning based on imports. This mindset has to change. The forces have to become "developers" as compared to "buyers".

The defence production can create huge technology potential in Indian manufacturing as most innovations have civilian applications.
 

sgarg

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There is a lot of confusion about price of Su-30. So I decided to search PIB releases.

"Su-30 MKI aircraft and TEJAS Light Combat Aircraft are the major modern combat aircraft that have been contracted for induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF). The total cost of procurement of the Su-30 MKI is over Rs.55,717 crore while the cost of procurement of the TEJAS Light Combat Aircraft is about Rs.8691 crore."

Press Information Bureau English Releases

Looking at these figures, Su-30 program is far cheaper than 1,00,000 crore IAF is projecting for Rafale (for next 10 years only).

Rafale can put pressure on many urgent IAF requirements for a long time to come. IAF budget is not unlimited.

The best IAF can spare for MMRCA is a figure of 1 billion per year.
 

SajeevJino

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India plays safe, grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet


India has grounded its entire Sukhoi-30 fleet after a recent crash because it doesn't want to put its pilots in harm's way.

The fighters have not flown for a week after a Su-30 MKI of the Indian Air Force crashed near Pune, raising questions about the safety record of the fighter.

With the IAF operating close to 200 twin-engine Su-30s, the grounded planes represent almost a third of the country's fighter fleet. India is due to get 72 more of these planes, each worth over Rs. 200 crore.

The IAF is down to 34 combat squadrons, as against an authorised strength of 44. Each squadron has up to 18 fighter planes.

An IAF official said safety checks with "special focus on ejection seats" were being conducted and flight operations would resume only after each plane was cleared. A highly-placed source said the pilots of the plane that crashed on October 14 near Pune had reported "automatic seat ejection." One of the two pilots was involved in a previous Su-30 crash too.

Five Su-30 fighters have crashed during the last five years, setting off alarm bells in the IAF. The Su-30 fleet has been grounded at least twice in the past.

Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Major told HT, "A fleet is grounded when you have no clue as to what brought the plane down. It's serious."

Asked if buying Su-30s was a doubtful choice, Major said the planes were splendid but IAF needed to get to the bottom of the problem. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited assembles and repairs these planes in India.

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had told reporters on October 4 that the Su-30 fleet was facing certain problems, but he refused to elaborate. The IAF's Su-30 fleet has faced a high number of mid-air engine failures during the last two years, said another official.

India plays safe, grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet - Hindustan Times
 

sgarg

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I have a feeling that Su-30 episode is staged to force the government to buy Rafale.

This is the air-force that continues to fly 60s era fighter Mig-21.

Why would it ground "entire" Su-30 fleet?

Accidents happen not only due to "flaw" in aircraft but also not following proper maintenance procedures, environmental factors, and pilot errors.

The fly by wire computer can be changed if that is the problem. How long does it take to change one circuit board? Electronic components age too and need to be replaced.

India is a hot country and heat is bad for electronics. All electronic components lasts less in India compared to colder countries. I have noticed that for last 20 years.
 

akshay m

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India plays safe, grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet


India has grounded its entire Sukhoi-30 fleet after a recent crash because it doesn't want to put its pilots in harm's way.

The fighters have not flown for a week after a Su-30 MKI of the Indian Air Force crashed near Pune, raising questions about the safety record of the fighter.

With the IAF operating close to 200 twin-engine Su-30s, the grounded planes represent almost a third of the country's fighter fleet. India is due to get 72 more of these planes, each worth over Rs. 200 crore.

The IAF is down to 34 combat squadrons, as against an authorised strength of 44. Each squadron has up to 18 fighter planes.

An IAF official said safety checks with "special focus on ejection seats" were being conducted and flight operations would resume only after each plane was cleared. A highly-placed source said the pilots of the plane that crashed on October 14 near Pune had reported "automatic seat ejection." One of the two pilots was involved in a previous Su-30 crash too.

Five Su-30 fighters have crashed during the last five years, setting off alarm bells in the IAF. The Su-30 fleet has been grounded at least twice in the past.

Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Major told HT, "A fleet is grounded when you have no clue as to what brought the plane down. It's serious."

Asked if buying Su-30s was a doubtful choice, Major said the planes were splendid but IAF needed to get to the bottom of the problem. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited assembles and repairs these planes in India.

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had told reporters on October 4 that the Su-30 fleet was facing certain problems, but he refused to elaborate. The IAF's Su-30 fleet has faced a high number of mid-air engine failures during the last two years, said another official.

India plays safe, grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet - Hindustan Times[/url]

su 30 mki has 5 crashes in almost 14 years since itsinduction in iaf service. thats not at all bad

and now hal is accusing iaf for poor servicability ,i.e ordering less spares than needed

Govt takes note of Su-30MKI's poor 'serviceability'

Even before an Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi-30MKI crashed on October 14, near Lohegaon Air Base outside Pune, concern has been mounting over growing numbers of crashes, incidents involving engine failure, and the worrying fact that, at any given time, barely half the Su-30MKI fleet is available for combat missions.

According to ministry of defence (MoD) figures accessed by Business Standard, the serviceability rate of the Su-30MKI was just 48 per cent till last year. The remaining fighters were undergoing repair or maintenance.

Today, availability has risen slightly to 55 per cent, far lower than advanced western air forces, which generate 80-85 per cent availability rates. In terms of aircraft numbers, only 106 of the 193 Su-30MKIs that the IAF flies today would be available in war. The remaining 87 fighters, each worth Rs 358 crore at current prices, would remain on the ground.

"That's more than Rs 30,000 crore just sitting there in hangars," notes a senior MoD official.

Last month, The defence ministry held two high-level meetings to find solutions to this problem. According to figures presented in those meeting (a) 20 per cent of the fleet, i.e. some 39 Su-30MKIs, are undergoing "first line" and "second line" maintenance or inspections at any time, which is the IAF's responsibility; (b) Another 11-12 per cent of the fleet is undergoing major repair and overhaul by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and (c) 13-14 per cent of the fleet is grounded, awaiting major systems or repairs - the technical terms is: "aircraft on ground". For decades, IAF has accused HAL of poor workmanship and maintenance. At the MoD meeting on Su-30MKI serviceability, HAL turned the tables on the IAF.

MoD was informed about serious problems with IAF's management of spares. By standard norms, a fighter fleet consumes five per cent of its worth in consumables and spares each year. By that benchmark the Su-30MKI fleet, currently worth about Rs 69,000 crore - 193 Su-30MKIs at Rs 358 crore a fighter - should consume spares worth Rs 3,450 crore annually. Yet, IAF orders from HAL add up to less than Rs 50 crore, including ground handling equipment.

Without competent inventory management by IAF, and with spares ordered piecemeal when defects arise, Su-30MKI fighters spend weeks on the ground awaiting spares.

To ensure that 13-14 per cent of the Su-30MKI fleet is not grounded for want of spares, HAL has stockpiled spares worth Rs 400 crore in Nashik. According to S Subrahmanyan, the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, the inventory is based on a study of consumption patterns of Su-30MKI spares over the preceding five years.

HAL says this buffer stock includes spares that are still purchased from Russia, because low consumption volumes make indigenisation non-cost-effective. Even so, non-availability of these spares could ground aircraft. Simultaneously, HAL has proposed to MoD that IAF must order spares required over a five-year period, stocking them at 25 Equipment Depot, IAF's holding depot for spares at Nashik.

Separately, HAL has offered the IAF "Performance Based Logistics" (PBL) for the Su-30MKI fleet - a solution common in advanced western air forces. PBL would bind HAL to maintain the Su-30MKI, providing the IAF a specified serviceability rate - calculated in flight hours, or as a percentage of the total aircraft fleet - in exchange for an annual service charge. Besides saving maintenance costs for the IAF, PBL has been found to encourage quality manufacture, since manufacturers know they will be responsible for keeping the aircraft serviceable through its operational life. MoD officials say IAF dislikes PBL model, because outsourcing maintenance to HAL threatens a large maintenance empire built around "base repair depots", manned by IAF personnel. In 2008-09, IAF rejected HAL's proposal for a PBL contract for maintaining the Hawk advanced jet trainer.

HAL is confident that it can deliver higher serviceability rates for the Su-30MKI than the current 58 per cent. The company has argued that raising aircraft availability by 20 per cent would make 40 Su-30MKI additionally available to IAF, effectively adding two fighter squadrons to its strike power.

The Su-30MKI fleet, which currently numbers 193 fighters - 50 built in Russia and 143 built by HAL, Nashik - will rise to 272 fighters by 2018-19, when HAL delivers the last of the 222 fighters it will build.

source buissness standard,ajay shukla
 

sgarg

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The maintenance procedures, the quality of maintenance staff, and availability of spares - each item must be verified by an external auditing agency.

We cannot take IAF's word as Bible. The reasons must be clear.

Unfortunately bureaucracy including senior defence posts should change along with the change in government. This does not happen in India as services are not affected by political change. This is a big problem as services are own independent empire with no checks and balances.
 

ersakthivel

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The point of this post is obscure to me to say the least. I am just trying to pin point ( rather reiterate ) what i wanted to convey. IITians are no GOD sent. On average somewhat of the international standard.

what I wanted to convey was that the kind of motivation that engineers have when they finish college and enter into an organization called DRDO or ISRO or BARC are very different.
It is the motivation to stick to the technical goal which produces stellar guys like moon probe chiefs and mars orbitter chiefs. Also kind of facilities and funds provided to them matter a lot.
The job of an chief engineer in complex projects done at ISRO and DRDO is not submitting papers, getting citations and patents. that is the job of people who undertake fundamental research at science labs.
The guys at DRDO and ISRO , BARC are expected to convert them into usable products like moon probe , missiles, fighters
The best institutes are TIFR/HRI/IMSC. The kind of salary that DRDO/ISRO pays it is impossible that any top class (INDIAN scientist ) will ever be generously offering their services unless they are pursued by something unofficially. You wont have to search the google , just search this forum and see what i told about jet engine... It appeared as if you just copy pasted a line from my earlier post. Anyway almost none of the physicists working in DRDO/ISRO ever made any genuinely highly quality paper. Hardly ever received a citation by anyone since they mostly embark upon reinvention of the wheels.All this happening in spite of the fact that there are at least 10 physicists and 12 mathematicians that exist in India who are considered the top authorities by the highest international standard. If they can somehow be perused by the GOI to sacrifice their field of interest for the betterment of their motherland then only there is a chance. One such mind is better than a few hundreds consuming the resources at DRDO. They are average ones at best. With these level of scientists we will never be able to catch up with China. ToT is our only hope.
SO understand this first. the difference between mission chiefs and fundamental science scientists.
 

SajeevJino

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Cloud over cause of Sukhoi crash



The mystery surrounding the October 14 Sukhoi-30 MKI crash near Pune has deepened.

A day after HT reported that Indian Air Force's entire fleet of 200 Su-30 MKI had been grounded for safety checks on ejection seats, the IAF admitted there was a freak ejection where seats fired on their own, leading to the crash.

The IAF's admission raises serious questions about the safety of one of the most advanced and relatively new fighters in the Indian fleet. The first variants of the plane were inducted in the late 1990s.

A top government official, however, told HT that Russian specialists assisting the probe and carrying out inspections were unwilling to believe that the ejection seats had fired without pilot command. "They insist it is impossible," he said.

The pilots of the fighter plane had reported "automatic seat ejection," as first reported by HT on Wednesday. One of them was involved in a previous Su-30 crash too.

"Both ejection seats had fired whilst the aircraft was coming in to land," said an IAF release,
corroborating the version of its pilots.

Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Major said ejection seats firing on their own was a rare occurrence and could be attributed to a deep-rooted flaw. "I don't recall any such case in the IAF, but a few cases have been reported in some other air forces," Major said.

Asked to comment on the Russian take on the ejection seats firing without pilot command, IAF spokesperson Wing Commander Simranpal Singh Birdi said it would be inappropriate to comment till the probe was over. He said all stakeholders, including Russian experts, were part of the probe. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited assembles and repairs the Russian-origin fighter in India.

The IAF's Su-30 planes are grappling with problems concerning repair and overhaul, mid-air engine failures and malfunctioning of mission computers and cockpit displays.

The HAL can currently overhaul only two fighters a year but hopes to increase the yearly capacity to 15 in the near future. More than 50 plants in Russia contribute to the Su-30 fighters manufactured in India under licence.




Cloud over cause of Sukhoi crash - Hindustan Times
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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First Sukhoi-30 overhauled at Nashik, highlights HAL's growing capability

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), Nashik will complete the first ever overhaul of a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter. HAL's test pilots will now test-fly the aircraft to ensure it has emerged from the overhaul as good as new.
Next week, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), Nashik will complete the first ever overhaul of a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter. HAL's test pilots will now test-fly the aircraft to ensure it has emerged from the overhaul as good as new. Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Subir Raha, has been invited to Nashik next month to accept the overhauled fighter back into his combat fleet.

HAL's new overhauling facility will save the IAF hundreds of crores of rupees, while giving leases of life to its Su-30MKIs. Not even Russia overhauls this fighter, a process that involves stripping it to its bare bones, checking every system and sub-system, replacing numerous components, and then reassembling the fighter anew.

A Su-30MKI is overhauled after flying 1,500 hours or 14 years, whichever is earlier. Over its total service life of 6,000 flying hours or 30-40 years, each fighter undergoes three overhauls. Eventually, the IAF's fleet of 272 Su-30MKIs will undergo 816 overhauls - three per fighter.

HAL officials say overhauling in India costs far less than what "original equipment manufacturers" or OEMs, charge - typically 35-40 per cent of the cost of a brand new fighter.

"OEMs usually price new fighters reasonably, but make their money by charging heavily for repair and overhaul. Establishing overhaul capability in India defeats this pricing strategy," says Wing Commander Neelu Khatri, a former IAF logistics specialist.

HAL Nashik also stands to benefit from business from other air forces that operate the Su-30. Says a MoD official; "Nashik is the world's only overhaul facility for the Su-30MKI. Potentially, it could get overhaul orders from countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Algeria, etc, which fly variants of the Su-30".

Through years of building the Su-30MKI, HAL Nashik has gradually mastered the expertise that makes it one of the world's most feared fighters. Says the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India.

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

Given HAL, Nashik's growing expertise, it is surprising that the overhaul facility at Nashik has taken 14 years to overhaul its first fighter. This is because the initial contract, signed in 2000 for building 140 fighters in India, did not include provisions for overhaul - a mistake, say contract lawyers.

The delay was compounded because Russia itself has no Su-30 overhaul facility (the Russian Air Force did not buy the fighter until well after India). Only in 2008 did New Delhi and Moscow sign an overhaul contract. Until last year, aircraft parts and systems were going to Russia for overhaul.

In 2010, the first IAF Su-30MKI fighters, which had joined the fleet in 2000, were due for overhaul, in accordance with the original schedule, which was 1,500 flying hours or 10 years. Since the fighters had flown far less than 1,500 hours, Sukhoi was approached to extend the time period between overhaul. After numerous inspections and "accelerated aging tests", Sukhoi revised the overhaul schedule to 1,500 flying hours or 14 years, whichever comes first.

"The MoD has sanctioned an overhaul capacity of 15 fighters per year; next year, we will overhaul 10-12 fighters and then stabilise at 15 fighters annually. We have already approached the MoD to step up capacity to 30 fighters per year, which will cater for our requirements into the 2030s" says Subrahmanyan.

Of the 30 Su-30MKIs that will be overhauled each year, HAL will do 20, while an IAF base repair depot will overhaul the other 10.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html
 

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