Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Deathstar]

You don't believe that the Americans by now already have kinetic and non-kinetic tools to neutralize S-400? I believe that even the French can neutralize an S-400 battery if needed. The same goes with Israelis.

So the Russians and the Chinese can say that they have neutralized F22s and F35s , will u believe that?
There was even an article stating that the chinese have mastered anti stealth radar. Without backing , we can say anything tbh. Atleast i would never underestimate Russian and Chinese weapons viz viz American ones

 

[Deathstar]

MKI needs MLU badly especially with China fielding Su-35 and J-20. BTW, it should be China that India must be focused on and not small fry Porkistan.

Thats why focus on Rafale , China is the biggest threat. If somehow the US lets go S400 apprehensions , we might even get F35s

 

[asianobserve]

So the Russians and the Chinese can say that they have neutralized F22s and F35s , will u believe that?
There was even an article stating that the chinese have mastered anti stealth radar. Without backing , we can say anything tbh. Atleast i would never underestimate Russian and Chinese weapons viz viz American ones

First, I do not recall the USAF or USN declaring that they have neutralized S-400 already. They are too professional to engage in such useless jongoism. They have capabilities that only they know at the moment much like how the World was unaware of F-117 for a decade.

But the Chinese and Russians, well jingoism is in their DNA. They would always claim to conquer the stars and heavens at every turn.

 

[asianobserve]

Thats why focus on Rafale , China is the biggest threat. If somehow the US lets go S400 apprehensions , we might even get F35s

MKI is still relatively young in IAF inventory. It still has a bog role to play in the IAF strategy. So it must be upgraded even while the IAF buys newer fighters like Rafale.

 

[asianobserve]

Radar on Blk 70 has smaller range but better scanning ability (AESA vs PESA). Missile range is what matters.

BTW MKI has a long planned MLU.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/05/super-su-30mki-from-air-dominance-to.html

The term alone "Scalable Agile Beam Radar" tells you already the unique capabilities of AN/APG-83 radar. It is simply a generation ahead of current MKI radar.

 

[Deathstar]

First, I do not recall the USAF or USN declaring that they have neutralized S-400 already. They are too professional to engage in such useless jongoism. They have capabilities that only they know at the moment much like how the World was unaware of F-117 for a decade.

But the Chinese and Russians, well jingoism is in their DNA. They would always claim to conquer the stars and heavens at every turn.

Whatever the case may be , S400 and its next iterations like S500 are indeed a headache for USAF , atleast i believe so

 

[vampyrbladez]

MKI needs MLU badly especially with China fielding Su-35 and J-20. BTW, it should be China that India must be focused on and not small fry Porkistan.

We got Rafales incoming. After the Meteor missile is deployed in conjunction with the MKI's radar this Subcontinent is under lock down!

 

[Assassin 2.0]

First, PAF does not have Blk70 F-16. They have Blk52.

Second, we can only speculate on why PAF F-a6s fired their AMRAAMs and the edge of their performance envelope. I can only guess --- to put the MKIs on the defensive (which was what happened)?

Third, I'm not too familiar with the Indian and PAkistani 1971 air war. But India overall had more aircraft losses in that war than Pakistan. But as far as the PAF F-104 versus IAF Mig-21 saga is concerned in 1971, yes it does appear that PAF's F-104 planes were badly neaten. And I do agree that the F-104 was not a good fighter aircraft. But it was not entirely the fault of the jet for it was designed principally as an interceptor against Soviet bombers and recon aircrafts, not as a dogfighter.

Fourth, with modern radar, radar and IR stealth, sensors, sensor fusion, HOBS and LOAL missiles that can do 40G turns paired with HMDs, dogfighting is now truly dead. It's the pilot that get's to see, aim and shoot first that wins, and here is where all these new tech dominates.

If there were more mig-29 upg and su-30 on air then story would have been different. IAF thought Pakistan will not respond so quickly. Our jets were on defensive because they were out numbered by Pakistan suicidal attack of sending 20 jets. 3 su-30 cannot fight pack of 20 jets you know this . if dog fight was dead then American forces wouldn't be using F-15 eagle and updating them or having super maneuverable F-22.

Technically s-400 and MR-Sam will make PAF useless.


You can watch this video and know how s-400 will change balance of power. It will give much needed boost to indian airforce.

like how the World was unaware of F-117 for a decade.
And in the end was shot by soviet era s-125

 

[vampyrbladez]

The term alone "Scalable Agile Beam Radar" tells you already the unique capabilities of AN/APG-83 radar. It is simply a generation ahead of current MKI radar.

True but raw performance via the bolt on MIRES X band AESA radar of the MKI upgrade will mitigate that easily.

Even without that the range advantage is enormous.

 

[asianobserve]

Whatever the case may be , S400 and its next iterations like S500 are indeed a headache for USAF , atleast i believe so

Headache? Yes. But definitely not insurmountable. S-500 is still being developed.

 

[Deathstar]

Headache? Yes. But definitely not insurmountable. S-500 is still being developed.

Even F22s , F35s or any weapons platform isnt Insurmountable. Continuous improvements goes on both the sides

 

[Lancer]

Since Jaguars are used mainly for ground-attack, I wonder if IAF could opt for Su-34 (mini-bomber) instead of 30MKI. They're practically the same airframe and have higher MTOW (to carry more bombs).So they could stick to the 18x 30MKI airframes, and all additional airframes could be Su-34.

Should get a few squadrons of these for Army Aviation as well - could be their dedicated Close Air Support

 

[armyofhind]

Second, we can only speculate on why PAF F-a6s fired their AMRAAMs and the edge of their performance envelope

Simple Answer - Incompetence. And the fear of meeting their maker if they tangled with an MKI for long.

But India overall had more aircraft losses in that war than Pakistan

Claimed, not confirmed. Similar to current jihadi air force claims of shooting down an MKI.Pakistanis also claimed some jihadi MM Alam shooting down five aircraft in five minutes in the 1965 air war. No gun camera film has ever been shown.

And I do agree that the F-104 was not a good fighter aircraft. But it was not entirely the fault of the jet for it was designed principally as an interceptor against Soviet bombers and recon aircrafts, not as a dogfighter.

So is the Mig-21. Designed as an interceptor from the start. Utilised as an all around aircraft by the IAF, in missions ranging from CAP, to CAS, and even the penetration strike which forced the Pakistani surrender inspite of 70000 standing troops.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Doesn't matter what Pakistani sell to there public but in 1971 niazi most feared dream was MiG-21.
India used that jet for every single role.

 

[armyofhind]

You have made a factually incorrect post.

Until today, Indian Airforce has never enjoyed technological superiority over their Pakistani counterparts.

Actually IAF had enjoyed technological superiority over PAF pretty much all the time after 1971, all the way upto early 2000s, when BVR capability was acquired by PAF for the first time. That's when the edge began to wear off.
Kargil saw Mig-29s patrolling the Himalayas with Impunity, while F-16s were bugging out as soon as the Fulcrums gave chase.

Now with the coming of Rafales, that superiority will be reestablished.

During the '65 war, Pakistan had Mach2 capable F-104s & upgraded F-86 Sabres armed with Sidewinders, while India used subsonic jet and only with cannons (no operational Mig-21s yet).

IAF had a squadron of Mig-21FLs operational in 65 and they went on CAP as well, but the K-13 missiles they were armed with were unreliable and lost lock easily and there was no underbelly cannonpod yet.

This lesson was learnt and worked upon, and all Mig-21s in 71 had an underbelly GSh-23 twin cannon pod along with the requisite radar ranging gunsight.

In '71, tight stunt even though India had quality aircraft in limited numbers.

False. IAF had similar numbers to PAF in terms of combat aircraft in 71.
And a major chunk of these were Mig-21s by now.

Indian side lost more aircrafts

This is a pakistani claim. Not confirmed. Not verified.
Eastern Sector was completely dominated by IAF.

And Western Sector saw initial resistance, but following the bombing of Sargodha by Su-7s, penetration raids were carried out further and further into Pakistan with runways being out out of commision in the last five days of the war.

 

[Bleh]

Actually IAF had enjoyed technological superiority over PAF pretty much all the time after 1971, all the way upto early 2000s, when BVR capability was acquired by PAF for the first time. That's when the edge began to wear off.
Kargil saw Mig-29s patrolling the Himalayas with Impunity, while F-16s were bugging out as soon as the Fulcrums gave chase.

Yes. Not until today, but until the '70s..

IAF had a squadron of Mig-21FLs operational in 65 and they went on CAP as well, but the K-13 missiles they were armed with were unreliable and lost lock easily and there was no underbelly cannonpod yet.

This lesson was learnt and worked upon, and all Mig-21s in 71 had an underbelly GSh-23 twin cannon pod along with the requisite radar ranging gunsight..

Ok, this squadron I didn't know about. Still only one & with neither reliable AAM nor guns... somewhat toothless.
Meaning of our subsonic aircrafts faced their Sidewinder armed, Mach2 capable jets with only guns.

This is a pakistani claim. Not confirmed. Not verified.
Eastern Sector was completely dominated by IAF.

And Western Sector saw initial resistance, but following the bombing of Sargodha by Su-7s, penetration raids were carried out further and further into Pakistan with runways being out out of commision in the last five days of the war.

Eastern sector was barely defended by PAF & India also lost many aircrafts in way more ground attacks it carried out in '71... Exactly how many weight loss to air combat cannot be determined now.
In '65 however Pakistani qualitative edge was overwhelming & their claims of having downed more Indian aircrafts is somewhat plausible.

 

[armyofhind]

Eastern sector was barely defended by PAF & India also lost many aircrafts in way more ground attacks it carried out in '71... Exactly how many weight loss to air combat cannot be determined now.

Read Eagles over Bangladesh by Samir Chopra. You'll know exactly how much PAF tried to defend the Eastern Sector.

Exactly how many weight loss to air combat cannot be determined now.

Actually it has been determined through extensive research and interviews. I would recommend you read the book.

In '65 however Pakistani qualitative edge was overwhelming & their claims of having downed more Indian aircrafts is somewhat plausible.

That is their claim. It has never been confirmed. And this myth of qualitative edge is propaganda. During 65, the only edge they had was with the F-104. Which didn't play much of role in 65.

The second major aircraft they had was the Sabre, while we also had had the Mystere and Hunter. Quite equally matched.

Again, read The Indo-Pak Air War of 1965 by Samir Chopra and Jagan Reddy.

Both these books are written by my best friends uncle. They have a great account of the day to day operations along with flight logs and gun camera film pictures. Extensive analysis.

And they put this myth of PAF superiority to rest. It's just like the myth of the US Patton Tanks with the Pakistani Army. They lie rotting in the dust at Asal Uttar even today. Put down in the ground by Indian Centurions.

 

[WARREN SS]

Despite having much smaller Air Force, with much smaller fleet of capable aircrafts (few F-16 squadrons only... Jf-17s are questionable & rest are vintage relics) they managed to achieve 20:6 numerical superiority... so they could shoot down all the IAF planes in the region irrespective of how manoeuvrable Su-30s are, if they tried.

Most probably didn't want situations to escalate into a full-scale war, but most likely fired the Aim-120s to get the Su-30 off them... Few BVRAAMs are cheaper than F-16. However, it could have been driven by panic or indiscipline as ROE was violated by them, just like airspace was violated by Indian Mig-21.

That is only natural... Before China, NATO was Pakistan's sugar-daddy as Indian govt was aligned to USSR & got showered with latest tech to counter the commie influence in South Asia. So much so, that Paki economy was actually larger than Indian during the sixties.

Until today, Indian Airforce has never enjoyed technological superiority over their Pakistani counterparts.
During the '65 war, Pakistan had Mach2 capable F-104s & upgraded F-86 Sabres armed with Sidewinders, while India used subsonic jet and only with cannons (no operational Mig-21s yet).
In '71, tight stunt even though India had quality aircraft in limited numbers.
in Air
So in a classic case of quantity vs quality, Indian side lost more aircrafts although air superiority was achieved eventually.

Majority Of Aircrafts Lost in 1965 was on Ground in Air Raid

 

[Armand2REP]

Most probably didn't want situations to escalate into a full-scale war, but most likely fired the Aim-120s to get the Su-30 off them... Few BVRAAMs are cheaper than F-16. However, it could have been driven by panic or indiscipline as ROE was violated by them, just like airspace was violated by Indian Mig-21.

Your first assertion is closer to the truth. Their mission was to escort a strike package. Their primary mission was to make sure those aircraft got home safely. Firing a barrage of BVRAAMs to scatter intercepting aircraft is a sound tactic to achieve that goal as it allows the strike package time to escape.

 

[IndianHawk]

First, PAF does not have Blk70 F-16. They have Blk52.

Second, we can only speculate on why PAF F-a6s fired their AMRAAMs and the edge of their performance envelope. I can only guess --- to put the MKIs on the defensive (which was what happened)?

Third, I'm not too familiar with the Indian and PAkistani 1971 air war. But India overall had more aircraft losses in that war than Pakistan. But as far as the PAF F-104 versus IAF Mig-21 saga is concerned in 1971, yes it does appear that PAF's F-104 planes were badly neaten. And I do agree that the F-104 was not a good fighter aircraft. But it was not entirely the fault of the jet for it was designed principally as an interceptor against Soviet bombers and recon aircrafts, not as a dogfighter.

Fourth, with modern radar, radar and IR stealth, sensors, sensor fusion, HOBS and LOAL missiles that can do 40G turns paired with HMDs, dogfighting is now truly dead. It's the pilot that get's to see, aim and shoot first that wins, and here is where all these new tech dominates.

Indians lost most plane in 1971 in raids over eastern Pakistan ( now Bangladesh). They simply ran too many sorties with old , unreliable birds.

Where Indian jet match paki jets the results were clearly in indian favour.