Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[asianobserve]

this made my day..lol..where these people coming from we pit against f16 block 52 of Singapore airforce every year,
and IAF is dumb enough to notknowing the f16 full ability, dude pls switch of ur vpn and come fro. real ip ,the flag u represent is not suits u SIR

Do you think the Singaporeans became one of the most accomplished country, with one of the highest per capita GDP, per capita wealth, by being "dumb?" Do you think by in particular the Singaporean Air Force is dumb enough to reveal to India all the capabilities of its most advanced weapons like the F-16 in annual training sorties with Indians? As far as I know Singapore pay for these trainings in India.

The Singaporeans perhaps will reveal all the capabilities of their F-16s only at Red Flag or other American dissimilar training programs.

 

[Deathstar]

Do you think the Singaporeans became one of the most accomplished country, with one of the highest per capita GDP, per capita wealth, by being "dumb?" Do you think by in particular the Singaporean Air Force is dumb enough to reveal to India all the capabilities of its most advanced weapons like the F-16 in annual training sorties with Indians? As far as I know Singapore pay for these trainings in India.

The Singaporeans perhaps will reveal all the capabilities of their F-16s only at Red Flag or other American dissimilar training programs.

Even we haven't revealed all capabilities of Su30s either. I remember during Red flag our pilots werent allowed to use some features so as to keep them secret
F16s are good but Su30s arent behind either. Its typical American trait to downplay any Russian capabilities yet sanctions sale of S400s

 

[vampyrbladez]

Do you think the Singaporeans became one of the most accomplished country, with one of the highest per capita GDP, per capita wealth, by being "dumb?" Do you think by in particular the Singaporean Air Force is dumb enough to reveal to India all the capabilities of its most advanced weapons like the F-16 in annual training sorties with Indians? As far as I know Singapore pay for these trainings in India.

The Singaporeans perhaps will reveal all the capabilities of their F-16s only at Red Flag or other American dissimilar training programs.

Su 30 MKI and Su 35 BM evolved from the Su 37 airframe and are considered to be supermaneuverable with a mini AWACS radar capability. F 16 doesn't even hold a candle to a beast like that! F 14 was the closest thing to such an aircraft and American bean counters killed it. The US Navy is now stuck with the F 18 E/F and the F 35C (an overweight F 18 E/F with stealth and sensor fusion).

Pakis lost an F 16B that day but can't even admit it for fear of losing public support. Meanwhile India has given ample proof of the kill and awarded the Vir Chakra to WCO Abhinandan for the kill.

https://theprint.in/defence/8-piece...abhinandan-shot-down-a-pakistani-f-16/278752/

 

[asianobserve]

Even we haven't revealed all capabilities of Su30s either. I remember during Red flag our pilots werent allowed to use some features so as to keep them secret
F16s are good but Su30s arent behind either. Its typical American trait to downplay any Russian capabilities yet sanctions sale of S400s

It's simply a fact that Russian fighters are overall inferior to their American counterparts. There are a lot of factors for that but chief among which are fighting doctrines (Russians design their fighters mainly for defensive fights while Americans are geared for offensive fights), R&Ds, quality of avionics, engines, weapons, electronics, and overall quality of aircraft production. The US simply pours a lot of money versus Russia into R&D into new techs.

What surprises me is the insinuation of the other poster that Pakistan may get Block 70 F-16. I don't think the US will allow that. But between Block 70 F-16 and the currently configured SU-30MKI, the former with the latest radar from F-35, non-radar sensors, avionics and EW upgrades, especially if given the latest AMRAAM (again, I don't think it's going to happen) will definitely outclass the MKI. It's high time the IAF conducts an MLU on its MKI fleet on radar, sensors, EW suite, longer range missiles, to keep it up to breast with latest fighter developments especially in terms of sensors and sensors integration.

 

[Deathstar]

It's simply a fact that Russian fighters are overall inferior to their American counterparts. There are a lot of factors for that but chief among which are fighting doctrines (Russians design their fighters mainly for defensive fights while Americans are geared for offensive fights), R&Ds, quality of avionics, engines, weapons, electronics, and overall quality of aircraft production. The US simply pours a lot of money versus Russia into R&D into new techs.

What surprises me is the insinuation of the other poster that Pakistan may get Block 70 F-16. I don't think the US will allow that. But between Block 70 F-16 and the currently configured SU-30MKI, the former with the latest radar from F-35, non-radar sensors, avionics and EW upgrades, especially if given the latest AMRAAM (again, I don't think it's going to happen) will definitely outclass the MKI. It's high time the IAF conducts an MLU on its MKI fleet on radar, sensors, EW suite, longer range missiles, to keep it up to breast with latest fighter developments especially in terms of sensors and sensors integration.

Anyways i dont think so Russian fighters are anything less. Everyones personal opinion.
Though American A/C s might be slightly ahead but Russians are ahead in Air defence tech. There's a reason Americans fear S400.
Anyways Su30s will get a MLU with an AESA radar , better engine , long range missiles , new Avionics etc. Regarding F35s even Americans chew more tgan they can swallow. Excessive cost overruns , still no FOC.
Now if Russians master anti steatlh next gen AD i.e S500 ,F35s will certainly suffer 35s

 

[asianobserve]

Su 30 MKI and Su 35 BM evolved from the Su 37 airframe and are considered to be supermaneuverable with a mini AWACS radar capability. F 16 doesn't even hold a candle to a beast like that! F 14 was the closest thing to such an aircraft and American bean counters killed it. The US Navy is now stuck with the F 18 E/F and the F 35C (an overweight F 18 E/F with stealth and sensor fusion).

Pakis lost an F 16B that day but can't even admit it for fear of losing public support. Meanwhile India has given ample proof of the kill and awarded the Vir Chakra to WCO Abhinandan for the kill.

https://theprint.in/defence/8-piece...abhinandan-shot-down-a-pakistani-f-16/278752/

Because the MKI is a direct development from the SU-27, it also means that it is simply so massive and not shaped to minimize radar signature. The F-16 meanwhile has a much smaller airframe thus a much smaller radar signature than the MKI. And in it's Block 70 configuration the F-16 is mated with AN/APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar, derived from F-22 and F-35 radars, the most advanced radar currently in service. This means that MKI's current PESA radar will be overmatched by the latest F-16. Add to that the use of the latest AIM120D, the F-16 can detect and shoot at MKI (again, in its current form) first (just like what happened in the PAF engagement, and that was only a Block 51 F-16!).

 

[asianobserve]

And the MKI upgrade must also include HMD. Everyone is now using HMD and it's a significant advantage in both long range and especially in WVR fight. BY directly beaming critical data to the pilots helmet, the pilots workload is reduced and his concentration on the target increased.

 

[asianobserve]

Anyways i dont think so Russian fighters are anything less. Everyones personal opinion.
Though American A/C s might be slightly ahead but Russians are ahead in Air defence tech. There's a reason Americans fear S400.
Anyways Su30s will get a MLU with an AESA radar , better engine , long range missiles , new Avionics etc. Regarding F35s even Americans chew more tgan they can swallow. Excessive cost overruns , still no FOC.
Now if Russians master anti steatlh next gen AD i.e S500 ,F35s will certainly suffer 35s

American fear of S-400 only means that Americans are never complacent nor jingoistic. They are always observing their potential adversaries, studying their gears, techs and tactics, and at the same time always trying to find ways at staying ahead. That's why the Americans spend more on defense, and R&D in particular.

But the Americans by now have already mapped out the S-400 and has a lot of kinetic and non-kinetic weapons up its sleeve to neutralize stationary S-400. Should the Americans and its allies ever have to go against an enemy with S-400 in a war, you would be well advised not to bet on the S-400 side.

 

[vampyrbladez]

It's simply a fact that Russian fighters are overall inferior to their American counterparts. There are a lot of factors for that but chief among which are fighting doctrines (Russians design their fighters mainly for defensive fights while Americans are geared for offensive fights), R&Ds, quality of avionics, engines, weapons, electronics, and overall quality of aircraft production. The US simply pours a lot of money versus Russia into R&D into new techs.

What surprises me is the insinuation of the other poster that Pakistan may get Block 70 F-16. I don't think the US will allow that. But between Block 70 F-16 and the currently configured SU-30MKI, the former with the latest radar from F-35, non-radar sensors, avionics and EW upgrades, especially if given the latest AMRAAM (again, I don't think it's going to happen) will definitely outclass the MKI. It's high time the IAF conducts an MLU on its MKI fleet on radar, sensors, EW suite, longer range missiles, to keep it up to breast with latest fighter developments especially in terms of sensors and sensors integration.

1. Bullshit! Here's some reality to wake you up with!

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-04.html

https://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html

2. F 16 BLK 70 uses the APG 83 SABR radar which is NOT equivalent to the APG 81 used in the F 35.

APG 83 SABR ~ 1100 T/R Modules

RBE2-AA Production Variant ~ 1000 T/R Modules

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_16.pdf

The AESA radar array will be made up of more than 1,000 transmitter/receiver modules so that several can fail with no significant degradation in acuity

 

[asianobserve]

1. Bullshit! Here's some reality to wake you up with!

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-04.html

https://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html

2. F 16 BLK 70 uses the APG 83 SABR radar which is NOT equivalent to the APG 81 used in the F 35.

APG 83 SABR ~ 1100 T/R Modules

RBE2-AA Production Variant ~ 1000 T/R Modules

View attachment 38504

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_16.pdf

First, the biggest undoing of ausairpower folks is to heap subjective scorn on the F-35 while it was still in development. I mean how can you give an analysis based on subjectively theoretical constructs?

Second, SABR is indeed a development of F-22 and F-35 radars. Here's an official statement from Northrop Grumman:

5th Generation Fighter Radar Capability for the 4th Gen Aircraft
The APG-83 is an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fire control radar. Building on Northrop Grumman’s 40-year legacy producing radars for the F-16, it integrates within the F-16’s current structural, power and cooling constraints without Group A aircraft modification. The capabilities of this advanced AESA are derived from Northrop Grumman’s family of highly successful 5th generation fighter AESA radars, the F-22’s APG-77 and F-35’s APG-81.

https://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/sabr/Pages/default.aspx

I wouldn't argue with the manufacturer of the radar.

 

[vampyrbladez]

American fear of S-400 only means that Americans are never complacent nor jingoistic. They are always observing their potential adversaries, studying their gears, techs and tactics, and at the same time always trying to find ways at staying ahead. That's why the Americans spend more on defense, and R&D in particular.

But the Americans by now have already mapped out the S-400 and has a lot of kinetic and non-kinetic weapons up its sleeve to neutralize stationary S-400. Should the Americans and its allies ever have to go against an enemy with S-400 in a war, you would be well advised not to bet on the S-400 side.

Meh,

Because the MKI is a direct development from the SU-27, it also means that it is simply so massive and not shaped to minimize radar signature. The F-16 meanwhile has a much smaller airframe thus a much smaller radar signature than the MKI. And in it's Block 70 configuration the F-16 is mated with AN/APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar, derived from F-22 and F-35 radars, the most advanced radar currently in service. This means that MKI's current PESA radar will be overmatched by the latest F-16. Add to that the use of the latest AIM120D, the F-16 can detect and shoot at MKI (again, in its current form) first (just like what happened in the PAF engagement, and that was only a Block 51 F-16!).

1. Su 30 MKI has a N011 BARS PESA radar with almost 400 km search range, with that much range you can seek out targets before their radars can see you.

2. Nope, the APG 81 is although by sheer performance the APG 77 will come out on top.

3. The Pakis used AIM 120 C-5 ~ 100 km range and Su 30 MKI had R 77 AE ~ 80 km range. They used the edge of their flight envelope and attacked from within PoK. MKIs had to weave and use countermeasures to cope with the range deficit. We saw them first but their missiles have longer legs.

https://eurasiantimes.com/su-30-mki-vs-f-16-how-su-30-mki-jets-spoofed-f-16s-amraam-missiles/

''The PAF surprised the IAF by launching air-to-air missiles from inside Pakistan-occupied Kashmir," says Sameer Joshi, a Kargil veteran. ''The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF air-to-air missiles which did not get a command to launch," he said.

Among the Indian Air Force's fighters which were targeted were two Sukhoi-30s which managed to evade the AMRAAMs which were fired at close to their maximum range of 100 kilometres. Fully defensive and desperate to escape the incoming AMRAAMs, the IAF Sukhoi-30s escaped being shot down but were unable to retaliate the F-16s because they were out of position and their own missiles, the Russian R-77s, did not have the range to realistically engage the Pakistani fighters. IAF sources told NDTV that the Russian missiles do not match its advertised range and cannot engage targets which are more than 80 kilometres away.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/out...arm-its-sukhois-with-israeli-missiles-2044172

 

[asianobserve]

https://eurasiantimes.com/su-30-mki-vs-f-16-how-su-30-mki-jets-spoofed-f-16s-amraam-missiles/

''The PAF surprised the IAF by launching air-to-air missiles from inside Pakistan-occupied Kashmir," says Sameer Joshi, a Kargil veteran. ''The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF air-to-air missiles which did not get a command to launch," he said.

Among the Indian Air Force's fighters which were targeted were two Sukhoi-30s which managed to evade the AMRAAMs which were fired at close to their maximum range of 100 kilometres. Fully defensive and desperate to escape the incoming AMRAAMs, the IAF Sukhoi-30s escaped being shot down but were unable to retaliate the F-16s because they were out of position and their own missiles, the Russian R-77s, did not have the range to realistically engage the Pakistani fighters. IAF sources told NDTV that the Russian missiles do not match its advertised range and cannot engage targets which are more than 80 kilometres away.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/out...arm-its-sukhois-with-israeli-missiles-2044172

These articles only confirm what I have been saying, that the MKI in its current form will be outmatched by F-16 Block 70 (the original postulate of the other poster that started this while back and forth pn F-16 Blk70 versus MKI).

 

[Deathstar]

American fear of S-400 only means that Americans are never complacent nor jingoistic. They are always observing their potential adversaries, studying their gears, techs and tactics, and at the same time always trying to find ways at staying ahead. That's why the Americans spend more on defense, and R&D in particular.

But the Americans by now have already mapped out the S-400 and has a lot of kinetic and non-kinetic weapons up its sleeve to neutralize stationary S-400. Should the Americans and its allies ever have to go against an enemy with S-400 in a war, you would be well advised not to bet on the S-400 side.

Anything to back this???? Or this entire paragraph can be rehashed by replacing S400 with F22 , F35s and America with Russia and China but nothing to back it. Anyways Russians have even developed S500
And if they have already neutralized S400s threat then they shouldn't worry about Russia selling it to anyone even Iran right???

 

[Assassin 2.0]

These articles only confirm what I have been saying, that the MKI in its current form will be outmatched by F-16 Block 70 (the original postulate of the other poster that started this while back and forth pn F-16 Blk70 versus MKI.

My only question is if your American F-16 blk70 was so superior why she failed to shot even single? Su-30mki? Why pack of 20 failed to take on any jet besides Mig-21 please answer this? 6vs 20.
Do you know all this ranting of American aircraft and all but in 1971 IAF destroyed the Pakistani Airforce with Mig-21 and was able to shoot down Your F-104A at that time to there were same people like you Mig-21 is inferior bla bla bla.
Why 5 amram failed to hit single su-30? We didn't fired because we cannot play dominant role against pack of 20.
But maneuverability of su-30 is like a beast. Which non of the Pakistani jet can match. Su - 30 can out run and out maneuver them.

 

[asianobserve]

Anything to back this???? Or this entire paragraph can be rehashed by replacing S400 with F22 , F35s and America with Russia and China but nothing to back it. Anyways Russians have even developed S500

You don't believe that Americans are always studying its adversaries, trying to learn their weaknesses? You don't believe that Americans spend far more on R&D than Russia?

 

[Deathstar]

You don't believe that Americans are always studying its adversaries, trying to learn their weaknesses? You don't believe that Americans spend far more on R&D than Russia?

I believe that but u said they have already neutralized S400s threat so asked anything to back it???

 

[vampyrbladez]

First, the biggest undoing of ausairpower folks is to heap subjective scorn on the F-35 while it was still in development. I mean how can you give an analysis based on subjectively theoretical constructs?

Second, SABR is indeed a development of F-22 and F-35 radars. Here's an official statement from Northrop Grumman:

5th Generation Fighter Radar Capability for the 4th Gen Aircraft
The APG-83 is an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fire control radar. Building on Northrop Grumman’s 40-year legacy producing radars for the F-16, it integrates within the F-16’s current structural, power and cooling constraints without Group A aircraft modification. The capabilities of this advanced AESA are derived from Northrop Grumman’s family of highly successful 5th generation fighter AESA radars, the F-22’s APG-77 and F-35’s APG-81.

https://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/sabr/Pages/default.aspx

I wouldn't argue with the manufacturer of the radar.

1. As has been shown with the F 35 program, they were mostly right. Until Trump came and bullied Lockheed, the program was just limping to completion.

2. If you are using the same backend then you won't have the same performance as the APG 81 with fewer T/R nodes.

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html

 

[vampyrbladez]

These articles only confirm what I have been saying, that the MKI in its current form will be outmatched by F-16 Block 70 (the original postulate of the other poster that started this while back and forth pn F-16 Blk70 versus MKI).

Radar on Blk 70 has smaller range but better scanning ability (AESA vs PESA). Missile range is what matters.

BTW MKI has a long planned MLU.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/05/super-su-30mki-from-air-dominance-to.html

 

[asianobserve]

My only question is if your American F-16 blk70 was so superior why she failed to shot even single? Su-30mki? Why pack of 20 failed to take on any jet besides Mig-21 please answer this? 6vs 20.
Do you know all this ranting of American aircraft and all but in 1971 IAF destroyed the Pakistani Airforce with Mig-21 and was able to shoot down Your F-104A at that time to there were same people like you Mig-21 is inferior bla bla bla.
Why 5 amram failed to hit single su-30? We didn't fired because we cannot play dominant role against pack of 20.
But maneuverability of su-30 is like a beast. Which non of the Pakistani jet can match. Su - 30 can out run and out maneuver them.

First, PAF does not have Blk70 F-16. They have Blk52.

Second, we can only speculate on why PAF F-a6s fired their AMRAAMs and the edge of their performance envelope. I can only guess --- to put the MKIs on the defensive (which was what happened)?

Third, I'm not too familiar with the Indian and PAkistani 1971 air war. But India overall had more aircraft losses in that war than Pakistan. But as far as the PAF F-104 versus IAF Mig-21 saga is concerned in 1971, yes it does appear that PAF's F-104 planes were badly neaten. And I do agree that the F-104 was not a good fighter aircraft. But it was not entirely the fault of the jet for it was designed principally as an interceptor against Soviet bombers and recon aircrafts, not as a dogfighter.

Fourth, with modern radar, radar and IR stealth, sensors, sensor fusion, HOBS and LOAL missiles that can do 40G turns paired with HMDs, dogfighting is now truly dead. It's the pilot that get's to see, aim and shoot first that wins, and here is where all these new tech dominates.

 

[asianobserve]

Radar on Blk 70 has smaller range but better scanning ability (AESA vs PESA). Missile range is what matters.

BTW MKI has a long planned MLU.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/05/super-su-30mki-from-air-dominance-to.html

MKI needs MLU badly especially with China fielding Su-35 and J-20. BTW, it should be China that India must be focused on and not small fry Porkistan.