Sukhoi PAK FA

[nongaddarliberal]

None of what you say matters - on Feb 27th a serving officer of the IAF became an internet meme. The world saw the smoking remains of an IAF aircraft, an IAF officer in chains, held captive by Pakistan. The world did not see the burning wreak of an F-16, a captured PAF pilot etc... So in general the IAF did not come out smelling of roses on that day.
Claims of downing an F-16 just seems a desperate attempt at face saving.

Trust me when I say this Pakistan is much hated by current and former members of the US armed forces for its complicity in the loss of American lives over the last decade. The personnel monitoring PAF jets in Pakistan will be very pleased to report the downing of a PAF F-16. Finally, the US investigates every major incident involving a US made military aircraft type active in its own inventory. The loss of an F-16 cannot be hidden - just can't happen.

If Indians are assuaged by the shoot down of a Phantom F-16 then so be it. Lets all pretend ...
....the IAF is "fantastic"

To members getting angry at this, this is the result of not retaliating after Pakistan launched an air strike on us and downed one of our jets. You would all remember every roadside idiot was clamouring for peace and de-escalation after pictures and videos of Abhinandhan emerged. Everyone simply wanted him back, national pride and national security be damned. Under immense political pressure, the govt made the armed forces deescalate and get him back, even though the pakis had to give him back regardless of what we did, under the Geneva conventions.

Now this is the result. This is the global perception. We can give any amount of circumstantial evidence of downing an f 16. But the accepted narrative around the world is that we lost a jet and they didn't. Our pilot was captured and paraded, theirs weren't. One cannot get angry at an American, who has a vested interest in denying an F 16 got shot down, that too by a Mig 21, to go along with the official story. We should have launched strikes against them the same day, and shot down more planes and even bombed a few airfields. Now we must collectively suffer this narrative, which could have been avoided.

On the bright side, there is likely going to be a serious war between India and pakistan before 2024, in which we can demonstrate how much we can hammer them.

 

[Deathstar]

Vent away... :biggrin2:

Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milošević , Ossama Bin Laden and Hitler et al agree with you...

Post Libya , Post Iraq , OBL was hiding in your ally Pakistan for 10 years , Hitler well credit goes to the soviets more than Americans.
Still doesnt change the fact that Afghanistan is Americas longest war and couldn't defeat the militia.
Couldn't defeat jungle dwellers Viet cong even after using Napalm and agent orange.
Superpower couldn't kill Next door commie Castro

 

[noobmaster69]

Do you feel better now? Did venting you anger with insults help? :biggrin2:

By the way, LM continues to sell more F-16 "crap" to Bulgaria, Bahrain, Taiwan and Iraq in 2019 likely new sales to Morocco and Indonesia.
And if begging India results in more $'s then LM Execs will be more than happy to line up at Modi's doorsteps to cry or plead ..lick shoes if necessary.....

I don't consider the IAF to be a well "trained AF" - sorry just my honest opinion.

If it doesn't take good training to make a fleet of over a dozen enemy aircrafts, aided by an airborne early warning system, retreat (with just 4 fighter jets) without completing their mission objective and shoot down an F-16, that you are raving about so much, with a Mig-21, then i don't know what in you eyes good training is... Maybe the airforces which buy american fighter jets will suffice only... It's better to be not well trained then... At least the fighter jets they own will still fly in war, the scenario for which they are actually made.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

To members getting angry at this, this is the result of not retaliating after Pakistan launched an air strike on us and downed one of our jets. You would all remember every roadside idiot was clamouring for peace and de-escalation after pictures and videos of Abhinandhan emerged. Everyone simply wanted him back, national pride and national security be damned. Under immense political pressure, the govt made the armed forces deescalate and get him back, even though the pakis had to give him back regardless of what we did, under the Geneva conventions.

Now this is the result. This is the global perception. We can give any amount of circumstantial evidence of downing an f 16. But the accepted narrative around the world is that we lost a jet and they didn't. Our pilot was captured and paraded, theirs weren't. One cannot get angry at an American, who has a vested interest in denying an F 16 got shot down, that too by a Mig 21, to go along with the official story. We should have launched strikes against them the same day, and shot down more planes and even bombed a few airfields. Now we must collectively suffer this narrative, which could have been avoided.

On the bright side, there is likely going to be a serious war between India and pakistan before 2024, in which we can demonstrate how much we can hammer them.

No one cares about all of this we fight war to win arguments on twitter or we fight a war for interest of the nation?

War is a strategic thing we have given heart attacks to pakistan after removing Article 370 what napak government did? Cried in front of globe. What roti stealer napak army did nothing cried even more.

West in past used to build more terrible narrative against India in 90s even called india a civilian butcher lamo.
West and it's media are just idiotic pathetic A hole. And they have double standards for everything you can do everything but they will paint you how they like for example in 2000s pakistan was a military rulled nation it was hailed as ally in war against terrorism but at the same time military ruled Myanmar was sanctioned :biggrin2:
Point is do we care about their narrative?

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Why no stealthy nozzle for PAK-FA, like the f-22 ? Also, looks like AMCA too will compromise on rearward stealth by having circular nozzle...

 

[nongaddarliberal]

No one cares about all of this we fight war to win arguments on twitter or we fight a war for interest of the nation?

War is a strategic thing we have given heart attacks to pakistan after removing Article 370 what napak government did? Cried in front of globe. What roti stealer napak army did nothing cried even more.

West in past used to build more terrible narrative against India in 90s even called india a civilian butcher lamo.
West and it's media are just idiotic pathetic A hole. And they have double standards for everything you can do everything but they will paint you how they like for example in 2000s pakistan was a military rulled nation it was hailed as ally in war against terrorism but at the same time military ruled Myanmar was sanctioned :biggrin2:
Point is do we care about their narrative?

Im aware of all of that. But to ignore the information warfare aspect of this conflict is short sighted. Anyway, this is the wrong thread for this topic.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Why no stealthy nozzle for PAK-FA, like the f-22 ? Also, looks like AMCA too will compromise on rearward stealth by having circular nozzle...

Round nozzles have less thrust loses that the rectangular nozzles engine-nozzle transition, thus F-22 basically is cooling off the thrust but also losing thrust, wasting it, Su-57 or J-20 having less powerful engines can not do that.
Aerodynamically the F-22`s rectangular nozzles do have lower drag but reduce thrust in ranges of 10-15% so around a tonne per engine.

 

[Longewala]

Do you feel better now? Did venting you anger with insults help? :biggrin2:

By the way, LM continues to sell more F-16 "crap" to Bulgaria, Bahrain, Taiwan and Iraq in 2019 likely new sales to Morocco and Indonesia.
And if begging India results in more $'s then LM Execs will be more than happy to line up at Modi's doorsteps to cry or plead ..lick shoes if necessary.....

I don't consider the IAF to be a well "trained AF" - sorry just my honest opinion.

Well trained or not, when they met your top guns at Cope the IAF was good enough to kick your backside.

And I think the PAF did about as well that day as your army did in Afghanistan - ie shoot and shout a lot, achieve nothing, and run for it with tail between legs.

After taking the IAF by surprise, outnumbering IAF locally, firing multiple, precious bvr missiles what did paf achieve?
Zilch, apart from getting their own top end jet ((top end for them) shot down by an ancient mig.

 

[Bleh]

Seal the forum to foreigner trolls already... It's Defence Forum India, not Defence Forum International!

 

[death.by.chocolate]

I'm sorry, I realize that I may have pushed the wrong buttons here - there is only so much I can say without revealing how I know these things. For a fact I know that Feb 27 wasn't a good day for the IAF.

There are issues that needs urgent resolution within your institutions, this isn't about point scoring it's about making sure lessons are learnt.

No more from me on this topic once again I apologize.

 

[Deathstar]

I'm sorry, I realize that I may have pushed the wrong buttons here - there is only so much I can say without revealing how I know these things. For a fact I know that Feb 27 wasn't a good day for the IAF.

There are issues that needs urgent resolution within your institutions, this isn't about point scoring it's about making sure lessons are learnt.

No more from me on this topic once again I apologize.

USAF didn't even release names of those killed in downed comm aircraft in ghazni ,AF. We dont even know if it was an accident or shotdown. Bad day for USAF i would say.
Media is maintaining an absolute silence over that incident. Ummmm

 

[death.by.chocolate]

USAF didn't even release names of those killed in downed comm aircraft in ghazni ,AF. We dont even know if it was an accident or shotdown. Bad day for USAF i would say.
Media is maintaining an absolute silence over that incident. Ummmm

Perhaps, but I am absolutely sure that the USAF learn from their mistakes. And if you are convinced the same is true for the IAF - you can just ignore everything I said.

 

[noobmaster69]

I'm sorry, I realize that I may have pushed the wrong buttons here - there is only so much I can say without revealing how I know these things. For a fact I know that Feb 27 wasn't a good day for the IAF.

There are issues that needs urgent resolution within your institutions, this isn't about point scoring it's about making sure lessons are learnt.

No more from me on this topic once again I apologize.

"Issues that need urgent resolution"... That realization will come in the form of buying American fighter jets and systems... Won't they? Such realizations are best not realized at all. Instead of buying smaller numbers of different fighter jets that do more or less the same thing... The Indian Air Force should place an order in bulk for the MWF and fast track its development. Don't worry though as there would be American engines onboard those birds too. Not a completely lost cause for the Americans!

 

[Deathstar]

Perhaps, but I am absolutely sure that the USAF learn from their mistakes. And if you are convinced the same is true for the IAF - you can just ignore everything I said.

Sure we will learn too , no ones perfect.

 

[noobmaster69]

Perhaps, but I am absolutely sure that the USAF learn from their mistakes. And if you are convinced the same is true for the IAF - you can just ignore everything I said.

The only major learnt lessons for that day were improved early warning and longer range missiles and perhaps accepting that the Mig-21, while still a formidable opponent for ANY PAF plane, is not suitable anymore as a front line interceptor especially when outnumbered like on 27th feb. And you can rest assured that the IAF has learnt its lessons too.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

The only major learnt lessons for that day were improved early warning and longer range missiles and perhaps accepting that the Mig-21, while still a formidable opponent for ANY PAF plane, is not suitable anymore as a front line interceptor especially when outnumbered like on 27th feb. And you can rest assured that the IAF has learnt its lessons too.

I hope so, but when an air force scrambles to acquire encrypted radio sets or better long range missiles after learning hard lessons in battle you have to wonder - why is that air force reactive? Surely, someone noticed the need for better communications gear before that equipment was needed in battle.

I just don't get it, my local mall cops have encrypted radio sets!!

 

[fire starter]

I hope so, but when an air force scrambles to acquire encrypted radio sets or better long range missiles after learning hard lessons in battle you have to wonder - why is that air force reactive? Surely, someone noticed the need for better communications gear before that equipment was needed in battle.

I just don't get it, my local mall cops have encrypted radio sets!!

air borne radio sets and walkie talkie are different.....

 

[death.by.chocolate]

air borne radio sets and walkie talkie are different.....

Same principle of encrypting radio transmission applies to both - so not different at all,
The only difference is encryption strength and transmission range.

 

[noobmaster69]

I hope so, but when an air force scrambles to acquire encrypted radio sets or better long range missiles after learning hard lessons in battle you have to wonder - why is that air force reactive? Surely, someone noticed the need for better communications gear before that equipment was needed in battle.

I just don't get it, my local mall cops have encrypted radio sets!!

If you don't get the difference between radio sets of Cops and Airborne Early Warning Systems... Then, well, i am in a loss of words. As for the IAF being reactive, the budget constraints are very real and remember that they were actually the ones who bombed the terrorist camps. They did not really expect Pakistan going against the contract and using the America supplied F-16s against them and certainly not being outnumbered. And even then the Sukhoi managed to evade the famed AMRAAMs. Had they not been outnumbered, the results would have been far different. Simple acquisition of better long range missile and induction of more Airborne Early Warning systems certainly will take care of this.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

I agree , like how a high flying intelligence aircraft of US got Shot down by abduls with beards , and subsequent efforts by US to downplay it ,
Until US provides Proof , talibans claim stand that they shot down the aircraft as you see whole world saw Wreckage and Crispy burnt American high ranking officers dead bodies , and thats all World will care .

It takes a truly special kind of person to degrade officers that died in service of their nation -regardless of the politics. Surely if others choose to reach the same lofty levels of "specialness" they wouldn't have the opportunity to do so....

Yes "crash" you heard me right "crash" as reported by Afghan eye witnesses at the "crash" site.
The Taliban will take credit for everything including the great depression, Corona virus - they like taking credit.

https://www.rferl.org/a/afghan-residents-doubt-taliban-shot-down-u-s-aircraft/30401828.html