Sukhoi PAK FA

[asianobserve]

If stealth works, they have to be built for dogfight because that is the only way they will be able to fight each other.

If dogfighting is useless, this means stealth doesn't work, which means that 5th generation fighters are useless.

And frankly, I think dogfighting will be important even for 4,5 generation aircraft. So far, long-range missiles have only worked against opponents who didn't really know what they were doing.

What?

Stealth is not designed for dogfighting. It is designed to allow a warfighter to attack the enemy from BVR. In fact, stealth has little advantage in dogfights.

As between stealth versus stealth, if they are evenly matched then they should negate each other's BVR advantage. But not all stealth fighters are created equal.

 

[Picard]

What?

Stealth is not designed for dogfighting. It is designed to allow a warfighter to attack the enemy from BVR. In fact, stealth has little advantage in dogfights.

As between stealth versus stealth, if they are evenly matched then they should negate each other's BVR advantage. But not all stealth fighters are created equal.

Stealth versus stealth is precisely what I was talking about: it will significantly reduce the engagement distance, and it will reduce practical engagement distance even more than that. But even against opponents that are not stealthy, utility of BVR engagements is questionable.

 

[asianobserve]

Stealth versus stealth is precisely what I was talking about: it will significantly reduce the engagement distance, and it will reduce practical engagement distance even more than that. But even against opponents that are not stealthy, utility of BVR engagements is questionable.

One way of looking at it is, stealth is principally a US weapons system designed to defeat Soviet fighters from BVR. Then when the Soviets (now Russians) and the rest of the World finally catch up with stealth technology then the US will move the goal post further with the use of better sensors, wingman drones and AI. Then the rest of the World will catch up again and the US has to find another aerial advantage, and so on and so forth.

 

[Picard]

One way of looking at it is, stealth is principally a US weapons system designed to defeat Soviet fighters from BVR. Then when the Soviets (now Russians) and the rest of the World finally catch up with stealth technology then the US will move the goal post further with the use of better sensors, wingman drones and AI. Then the rest of the World will catch up again and the US has to find another aerial advantage, and so on and so forth.

Stealth is actually a weapons system that was primarily developed to deal with enemy ground-based radars. F-117, B-2, F-35, and if memory serves me even F-22, were all developed to penetrate enemy air defences. But as US have always sworn by the radar-based BVR combat, at some point it also became a system to win air-to-air combat. Whether it works and how well it works is another matter entirely, but history of US advanced technologies leaves me rather skeptical in that regard.

 

[THESIS THORON]

wingman drones

wingman drones are good for ground based targets, slow moving arieal targets, I dont think they are good against fighter jets.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

If stealth works, they have to be built for dogfight because that is the only way they will be able to fight each other.

If dogfighting is useless, this means stealth doesn't work, which means that 5th generation fighters are useless.

And frankly, I think dogfighting will be important even for 4,5 generation aircraft. So far, long-range missiles have only worked against opponents who didn't really know what they were doing.

Bruh wot?
You're saying the exact opposite of what is true. Stealth is supposed to evade radar detection, not optical detection. Meaning stealth aircraft are WORSE at dogfighting due to internal bays vs wing pylons. Stealth advantage is using BVR at the enemy you can detect, while staying out of their detection range by using RAM and having low CS facing any direction.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

 

[MiG-29SMT]

 

[bhramos]

 

[blackjack]

The PAK-DA is rather pointless, its only use is just to challenge the U.S. in a dick measuring contest against the B-21. Now because of flat nozzles its completely official that its an all aspect stealth drone, has a 6000km range, possible carrier of 2 internal hypersonic air to ground missiles known as Larva-MD, cheap production, so far used for short rainge air to air engagements, And if they want long range air to ground engagements without having to go into territory like the su-70 the different Tu-160 variants will attend those needs. If I had to choose between the PAK-DP and PAK-DA as which one I would dump and which I would invest on I would invest on the PAK-DP and dump the PAK-DA. Ironically the Sukhoi LTS depending on variant is like 1/3rd the cost of F-35, and the Su-70 after production costs depending the Sukhoi LTS version being compared would be 1/3rd the cost of the Sukhoi LTS.

Since so far the Su-70 is compared to being 1 billion rubbles you would get 6 to 6 in a half of these drones for the cost of the cheapest F-35 variant. I wonder which is more efficent in air to ground missions having 6 all aspect stealth drones launching 12 hypersonic air to ground missiles or 2 to 4 of such missiles I am assuming for the same costs with just the F-35?

You can also get 2 to 3 sukhoi LTS for the cost of the cheapest F-35 variant so a F-35 getting jumped by 2 to 3 Sukhoi LTS where both jam and the other detects will be an ineresting air to air combat. The UAE looks like a possible customer for the LTS and F-35 for 2026. I know the U.S. can afford to pussy out pulling the F-35s away again because I dont think it looks good to the public eye that your withdrawing the aircrafts again from the same adversary. Also flying the LTS is 1/7th the costs of flying an F-35.

The PAK-DP hypersonic interceptor is still better recommended, The krylo-SV will take off from a runway and landback on the runway as a hypersonic wing rocket and the whirlwind engine is still currently unknown and it possesses artificial intelligence which will also be demonstrated on the supersonic LTS soon enough. they have created aviation material that is better than titanium that weighs like 1/10th less being as durable, handling high kinetic heat and has regeneration capabilities from bullets. The most difficult part of the project is making the software function correctly for aircraft operations.

 

[blackjack]

Su-57 fifth-generation fighter may get flat nozzle for stealth purposes — pilot, 14.12.2021.

The flat nozzle technology is a breakthrough in modern aircraft-building, Major-General Vladimir Popov noted.

MOSCOW, December 14. /TASS/. The unique flat nozzle demonstrated during the roll-out of the latest S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ (‘Hunter’) heavy strike drone will most likely be installed on the next modifications of the Su-57 fifth-generation fighter for stealth purposes, Russian Air Force merited pilot Major-General Vladimir Popov told TASS on Tuesday.

Russia’s Defense Ministry uploaded a video clip earlier on Tuesday showing the roll-out of the latest version of the S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ stealth heavy strike drone furnished with a unique flat nozzle thruster to cut its signature for enemy radars.

"Similar measures will most likely be taken for the Su-57 but this will be, perhaps, the second stage of its development. A new engine will be mounted on it," the military pilot said, commenting on the roll-out of the first flight prototype of the latest Okhotnik heavy strike drone at the Novosibirsk Aviation Enterprise on December 14.

A modified engine will most likely feature a flat nozzle, he said. "However, considering that the fighter employs afterburner acceleration modes, this nozzle must have the option of altering its configuration," Popov said.

"Mounted on the fighter, it must both expand and narrow its throughput capacity," the pilot said, adding that the flat nozzle technology was undoubtedly a breakthrough in modern aircraft-building.

Reducing vulnerabilities

The new nozzle for the Okhotnik heavy strike drone will considerably cut its vulnerabilities to enemy heat-seeking missile warheads, the military pilot explained.

"A flat nozzle is designed to cut infrared radiation of the engine’s exhaust gas flow. The flow’s infrared radiation enables air defense capabilities with thermal radiation homing warheads to take aim at the drone," Popov said.

"The incoming airflow kind of compresses and blurs the gases coming out of the nozzle. There is no big [nozzle] torch and thus the flow of gases escaping from the engine is invisible. It is the torch that basically ‘attracts’ thermal homing missiles, be it air-to-air or surface-to-air weapons," the military pilot explained.

The flat nozzle also cuts the aircraft’s optical signature, he added.

Invisible to radars

The new nozzle has altered the drone’s fuselage shape, which has cut its radar signature, the merited military pilot said.

"The aircraft’s radar signature is also reduced after the flat nozzle is installed. The cross section that reflects radio beams is also narrowed because the airplane now has no rough features in its design and it almost becomes flat," he pointed out.

The drone’s fuselage now actually looks like one wing, he said. "If we recall the first version of the Okhotnik, the engine clearly protruded there and now this is not the case. Now all the features are smooth and as a result the cross section has been cut and the radar beam deflection has magnified," the military pilot said.

Latest Okhotnik drone and Su-57 fifth-generation fighter

The S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ drone developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau features stealth technology and the flying wing design (it lacks a tail), which diminishes its radar signature. According to the data of open sources, the drone has a take-off weight of 20 tonnes and can accelerate to roughly 1,000 km/h. Serial delivery of the drone to the troops is expected to begin in 2024.

The Okhotnik heavy attack drone performed its debut flight on August 3, 2019. The flight lasted over 20 minutes under operator control. On September 27, 2019, the Okhotnik performed a flight together with a Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet. The drone maneuvered in the air in automated mode at an altitude of around 1,600 meters and its flight lasted over 30 minutes.

Speaking to journalists during the roll-out of the S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ flight prototype with a flat nozzle, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexey Krivoruchko said that a serial contract for its delivery to the troops would be signed in the next six months. As the defense official said, the Okhotnik is a highly intelligent system capable of coping with a broad range of tasks on its own, in a group and jointly with manned aircraft. Rostec said that work was underway to set up a new ground-based control post for the Okhotnik drone.

The Sukhoi Su-57 is a Russian-made fifth-generation multi-role fighter designated to destroy all types of air, ground and naval targets. The Su-57 fighter jet is capable of developing supersonic cruising speed, has its armament placed inside its fuselage and radar absorbing coatings and the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment. Russia’s Aerospace Force will receive 22 Su-57 fighters by late 2024 and their number will increase to 76 by 2028. The first Su-57 fighter was delivered to the Russian troops in 2020.

As the United Aircraft Corporation (part of Rostec) earlier told TASS, the latest Okhotnik drone would be capable of operating in conjunction with Su-57 fifth-generation fighters. The Okhotnik drone will be able to strike aerial and ground targets as part of network-centric interaction with the fighter, it specified.

TASS also reported that a pilot of the Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet would simultaneously coordinate the operations of four latest Okhotnik heavy strike drones. Moreover, a group of drones will most likely be controlled from a new Su-57 special two-seat version, it specified.

https://tass.com/defense/1375517

Its actually funny U.S. and Russia ditch flat nozzle designs for serrated edges, than Russia goes back ditching serrated edges to flat nozzle designs again. I am assuming Popov is talking about this picture.

They worried about speeds loss so I am assuming they will have a acceleration and de-acceleration option of the nozzle changing its configuration midflight because they still want to keep the speed. I am assuming that the 2nd design of the Su-57 will get another order number after the 1st production order is completed. В коллегии ВПК назвали сроки окончания испытаний истребителя Су-57 с двигателем второго этапа (topwar.ru)

 

[bhramos]

 

[Super Flanker]

 

[Super Flanker]

 

[Super Flanker]

 

[THESIS THORON]

View attachment 125551View attachment 125553View attachment 125554View attachment 125555

such a beauty, but still lagging in aesa and engine

 

[Super Flanker]

such a beauty, but still lagging in aesa and engine

Yes bro. If it had very good Engines, which were suitable for 5th Generation Aircrafts and had a good Radar and better stealth than it would have been so much more awesome.

 

[Picard]

Bruh wot?
You're saying the exact opposite of what is true. Stealth is supposed to evade radar detection, not optical detection. Meaning stealth aircraft are WORSE at dogfighting due to internal bays vs wing pylons. Stealth advantage is using BVR at the enemy you can detect, while staying out of their detection range by using RAM and having low CS facing any direction.

So what you are saying is that stealth fighters will only ever be used to fight either third world or small air forces that will not be able to produce / procure them? That is the assumption behind your post.

My point was, if all major air forces go for stealth, likelyhood of dogfights increases due to significant reduction in both detection ranges and missile acquisition / guidance ranges.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

So what you are saying is that stealth fighters will only ever be used to fight either third world or small air forces that will not be able to produce / procure them? That is the assumption behind your post.

My point was, if all major air forces go for stealth, likelyhood of dogfights increases due to significant reduction in both detection ranges and missile acquisition / guidance ranges.

All airforces keeping stealth fighters also keep 4.5 gen aircraft as escorts, for dogfighting. Stealth is not born equal, meaning that there will still be gap in detection times- Whoever gets it first, wins.

 

[blackjack]

battlefield keeps on evolving, stealth makes regular aircrafts obselete, photonic radar operated SAMs and near orbit aircrafts make stealth obselete its just the way things go