Sukhoi PAK FA

[StealthFlanker]

#Russia’s Su-57 Has the Highest Weapons Carriage of Any Fifth Generation Fighter - and the Longest Engagement Range

Su-57 can't carry 10 AAM missile internally, its total quantity of internal long range AAM load is actually same as F-22, J-20, F-35 block 4 which is 6 missiles.
Also quite questionable that its missile has longest engagement range, on one hand, R-37 is a big missile, on the other hand missile such as Meteor and PL-21 will have very long range due to their nature of being ramjet missile and can throttle back to extend range
For air to ground missile:

 

[panzerfeist1]

If we want to be super accurate as of now as in not talking about future air to air missile loadouts, but the present here you go.

(1709) Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 9 (russiadefence.net)

If we are talking about the future with newer generation air to air missiles than a 8 air to air missile loadout is possible as much as the F-35 getting a 6 air to air missile configuration.

With folding wings(assuming the new air to air missiles are this)

latest news on Su-57 weapons. KTRV launched mass production of new generation corrected aerial bombs (topwar.ru)

KTRV launched mass production of new generation corrected aerial bombs

The Tactical Missile Armament Corporation has completed testing of new-generation gliding ammunition and has begun their serial production. Boris Obnosov, the general director of KTRV, told about this in an interview with the "Military-Industrial Courier".

According to the head of the company, last year KTRV completed work on gliding ammunition of 250, 500 and 1500 kg caliber, launching the serial production of new generation corrected aerial bombs. The company has signed long-term contracts for the supply of a new generation of ammunition to the Russian Aerospace Forces, bombs are already entering service with the Russian military aviation .

We have made very serious progress in the past year in the production of precisely corrected aerial bombs of the KAB series. Both in their quality and quantity. The tests of a new generation of planning ammunition of calibers 250, 500 and 1500 kilograms have been completed, long-term contracts have been concluded for their supply - said Obnosov.

The general director of KTRV also said that tests of the promising KAB-250LG-E with a laser homing head and high-explosive fragmentation warhead, as well as other ammunition developed for the fifth generation Su-57 fighter, are proceeding according to schedule. In addition, at the final stage of testing are new UPAB caliber 500 and 1500 kilograms with a television guidance head.

The head of KTRV announced the completion of work and obtaining permission for serial production of a new adjustable aerial bomb of 250 kg caliber at the end of last summer. At the same time, he promised that by the end of 2020 the company will complete three topics on air-to-air missiles, on corrected air bombs of 1500 and 500 kg, on air-to-surface products and several more projects

 

[StealthFlanker]

If we want to be super accurate as of now as in not talking about future air to air missile loadouts, but the present here you go.

View attachment 75358

(1709) Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 9 (russiadefence.net)

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7978p200-su-57-stealth-fighter-news-6
In current configuration Su-57 carry 4 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM internally
F-35 carry 4 medium/long range AAM
F-22 carry 6 medium/long range AAM +2 short range AAM
J-20 carry 4 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM
So Su-57 doesn't carry more missile than its counterpart

If we are talking about the future with newer generation air to air missiles than a 8 air to air missile loadout is possible as much as the F-35 getting a 6 air to air missile configuration.

View attachment 75359

With folding wings(assuming the new air to air missiles are this)

View attachment 75386

latest news on Su-57 weapons. KTRV launched mass production of new generation corrected aerial bombs (topwar.ru)

KTRV launched mass production of new generation corrected aerial bombs

The Tactical Missile Armament Corporation has completed testing of new-generation gliding ammunition and has begun their serial production. Boris Obnosov, the general director of KTRV, told about this in an interview with the "Military-Industrial Courier".

According to the head of the company, last year KTRV completed work on gliding ammunition of 250, 500 and 1500 kg caliber, launching the serial production of new generation corrected aerial bombs. The company has signed long-term contracts for the supply of a new generation of ammunition to the Russian Aerospace Forces, bombs are already entering service with the Russian military aviation .

We have made very serious progress in the past year in the production of precisely corrected aerial bombs of the KAB series. Both in their quality and quantity. The tests of a new generation of planning ammunition of calibers 250, 500 and 1500 kilograms have been completed, long-term contracts have been concluded for their supply - said Obnosov.

The general director of KTRV also said that tests of the promising KAB-250LG-E with a laser homing head and high-explosive fragmentation warhead, as well as other ammunition developed for the fifth generation Su-57 fighter, are proceeding according to schedule. In addition, at the final stage of testing are new UPAB caliber 500 and 1500 kilograms with a television guidance head.

The head of KTRV announced the completion of work and obtaining permission for serial production of a new adjustable aerial bomb of 250 kg caliber at the end of last summer. At the same time, he promised that by the end of 2020 the company will complete three topics on air-to-air missiles, on corrected air bombs of 1500 and 500 kg, on air-to-surface products and several more projects

In future configuration (not counting SACM and Cuda like things on US aircraft)
Su-57 carry 6 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM
F-35 carry 6 medium/long range AAM
F-22 carry 6 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM
J-20 carry 6 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM
So again, Su-57 still doesn't carry more missiles than its counterpart F-22 and J-20 . Sure it can carry 2 more short range missile compared to F-35, but that is not even remotely close to the claimed 250% of F-35 load out as mentioned in the article

 

[panzerfeist1]

In current configuration Su-57 carry 4 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM internally
F-35 carry 4 medium/long range AAM
F-22 carry 6 medium/long range AAM +2 short range AAM
J-20 carry 4 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM
So Su-57 doesn't carry more missile than its counterpart

In future configuration,
Su-57 carry 6 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM
F-35 carry 6 medium/long range AAM
F-22 carry 6 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM
J-20 carry 6 medium/long range AAM + 2 short range AAM
So again, Su-57 still doesn't carry more missiles than its counterpart

Wait whats going on here are we comparing a multirole to one that is limited in air to air roles or comparing two different multirole aircrafts here? The newer generation missiles will help us determine the loadout.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Wait whats going on here are we comparing a multirole to one that is limited in air to air roles or comparing two different multirole aircrafts here? The newer generation missiles will help us determine the loadout.

If you go in the link that Brahmos posted, you will understand what I'm talking about.
The comparison was between Su-57, F-22, J-20 and F-35

 

[panzerfeist1]

If you go in the link that Brahmos posted, you will understand what I'm talking about.
The comparison was between Su-57, F-22, J-20 and F-35

so of those 3 aircrafts only one is limited to a air to air role? I am just shocked with your term of using counterpart when comparing different role aircrafts.

I would not dismiss a 10 missile loadout depending on what new generation of missile it is. I remember being the only user back at key aero that suggested the SU-70 will have a air to air role that was dismissed and if we look at the present we can see how that has turned out.

 

[panzerfeist1]

Also quite questionable that its missile has longest engagement range, on one hand, R-37 is a big missile, on the other hand missile such as Meteor and PL-21 will have very long range due to their nature of being ramjet missile and can throttle back to extend range

Does the meteor or PL-21 have a 400km range? I think we went over this not too long ago. until my last response is do you hate ho chi minh.

 

[StealthFlanker]

so of those 3 aircrafts only one is limited to a air to air role? I am just shocked with your term of using counterpart when comparing different role aircrafts.
I would not dismiss a 10 missile loadout depending on what new generation of missile it is. I remember being the only user back at key aero that suggested the SU-70 will have a air to air role that was dismissed and if we look at the present we can see how that has turned out.

None of them are purely fighter, even F-22 can do air to ground role with GBU-39+ SAR and GMTI mode. I used counterpart here as in stealth fighter
The thing is there is no missiles that allow 10 missiles internal load on Su-57 yet, there isn't any plan to increase the number of internal rack to do that yet. And if we truly taking into account these hypothetical load out that isn't mentioned yet, then we must also take into account missile like Cuda or SACM, so really, Su-57 still doesn't carry more AAM than its counterpart like they are implied

 

[panzerfeist1]

Dont forget to add the K-77ME and AIM-260 with the Meteor in size reference I don't want anyone to think you have some kind of bias. PL-21 is like 5.5 meters long on google search. Not even the Meteor or K-37M are that big.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Does the meteor or PL-21 have a 400km range?

Depends, at what altitude and what launch speed? what is the altitude and speed of targets?

I think we went over this not too long ago. until my last response is do you hate ho chi minh.

50:50, I don't hate or like him, he is a generic figure just like Stalin, Obama or Putin. I couldn't care less about them

 

[StealthFlanker]

Dont forget to add the K-77ME and AIM-260 with the Meteor in size reference I don't want anyone to think you have some kind of bias. PL-21 is like 5.5 meters long on google search. Not even the Meteor or K-37M are that big.

There is literally no information about AIM-260, so it is impossible to make any kind of comparison
K-77ME is a ramjet K-77, so parobably same range as JNAAM and Meteor
PL-21 is long and very thin, so I think its with have longest range due to low drag

 

[panzerfeist1]

None of them are purely fighter, even F-22 can do air to ground role with GBU-39+ SAR and GMTI mode. I used counterpart here as in stealth fighter

Just bombs yippee.

The thing is there is no missiles that allow 10 missiles internal load on Su-57 yet, there isn't any plan to increase the number of internal rack to do that yet. And if we truly taking into account these hypothetical load out that isn't mentioned yet, then we must also take into account missile like Cuda or SACM, so really, Su-57 still doesn't carry more AAM than its counterpart like they are implied

Nope we cant decline such an option depending if the newer generation Su-57 has different different racks or folding fins for air to air missiles, there are users that think it has a 12 missile loadout but I am not one of them. Seeing the pantsir quad missile size in comparison to MSDM I am not ruling out a CUDA type configuration for the Su-57 either.

 

[panzerfeist1]

Depends, at what altitude and what launch speed? what is the altitude and speed of targets?

ranges for PL-21 are 400km but of course the K-37M has this with but with a smaller size. Meteor at max shows me 220kms and that has yet to be determined in comparison the AIM-260 and both K-77M versions.

There is literally no information about AIM-260, so it is impossible to make any kind of comparison
K-77ME is a ramjet K-77, so parobably same range as JNAAM and Meteor
PL-21 is long and very thin, so I think its with have longest range due to low drag

PL-21 is 300kg heavier than the K-37M so the diameter didnt help much but hey that aint bad for them.

 

[panzerfeist1]

It even looks like the PL-21 is getting close to matching the GZUR scramjet missile since that missile weighs around 1,500kg with mach 1-2+ faster speeds, 0.5 meter added length, but of course it has to have a decent heavy warhead since its being equipped with bombers.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Nope we cant decline such an option depending if the newer generation Su-57 has different different racks or folding fins for air to air missiles, there are users that think it has a 12 missile loadout but I am not one of them. Seeing the pantsir quad missile size in comparison to MSDM I am not ruling out a CUDA type configuration for the Su-57 either.

There is not even a real photo of MSDN yet so it kinda pointless to talking about it at this point, we can indeed decline option like 10 missiles internally for Su-57 since there isn't even a program of record for that yet, no mini missile, no additional rack, so there isn't really any point mentioning the hypothetical load that pretty much only appearing in forum discussion.
Do you see anyone claimed F-35 has 12 AAM internally? eventhough SACM, Cuda , peregrine missile are all program of record?. Obviously not, because their fate aren't too certain at this point. The 10 missiles internal load for Su-57 is even worse because it isn't even a program of record

 

[StealthFlanker]

ranges for PL-21 are 400km but of course the K-37M has this with but with a smaller size. Meteor at max shows me 220kms and that has yet to be determined in comparison the AIM-260 and both K-77M versions.

Quite strange that you fully believe K-77ME can reach 300-400 km but doesn't believe Meteor can do the same, eventhough they practically same class

PL-21 is 300kg heavier than the K-37M so the diameter didnt help much but hey that aint bad for them.

being heavier isn't always a bad thing when it come to range, since it give missiles more momentum. But bigger cross section is bad because that increase drag without benefit

 

[panzerfeist1]

There is not even a real photo of MSDN yet so it kinda pointless to talking about it at this point, we can indeed decline option like 10 missiles internally for Su-57 since there isn't even a program of record for that yet, no mini missile, no additional rack, so there isn't really any point mentioning the hypothetical load that pretty much only appearing in forum discussion.

you sure about that? https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidh...-for-miniature-self-defense-missile-for-jets/ That is not the only source that has said one meter. Also I do not know if you got the memo yet but there is a 2nd variant Su-57 conducting tests based on new avionics, new weapons and new engines.

Do you see anyone claimed F-35 has 12 AAM internally? eventhough SACM, Cuda , peregrine missile are all program of record?. Obviously not, because their fate aren't too certain at this point. The 10 missiles internal load for Su-57 is even worse because it isn't even a program of record

I was still talking about the Su-57 but of course you cant determine what new missiles are either of if or the time and date without delay if those missiles will even be fielded. Go click on the russia defense net link to see that discussion. I am only giving a 10 air missile option but your still not explaining why that is not feasible.

Quite strange that you fully believe K-77ME can reach 300-400 km but doesn't believe Meteor can do the same, eventhough they practically same class

No I like my chances on the range estimates of the K-77M versions in comparison to Meteor missile. I am well aware of the Meteor's missiles range from one of your own sources. Don't mix up the K-77M to me referencing the range of K-37M.

being heavier isn't always a bad thing when it come to range, since it give missiles more momentum. But bigger cross section is bad because that increase drag without benefit

It gives no option for a internal weapons bay placement despite being the same range as the K-37M. Unless the Chinese and the U.S. with the HAWC program are all like fuck stealth.

 

[StealthFlanker]

you sure about that? https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidh...-for-miniature-self-defense-missile-for-jets/ That is not the only source that has said one meter. Also I do not know if you got the memo yet but there is a 2nd variant Su-57 conducting tests based on new avionics, new weapons and new engines.

I know MSDN is a program of record, the problem is that you don't actually know the load out arrangement or how it actually look like, so it is pointless to talk about it. Just because there are some source that said 1 meter doesn't mean you know how they stack it on F-35, F-22 weapon rack
Take for example, the load out of MSDN might be extremely high if it stack like this, but the problem is that we don't know if the arrangement is like that, so any guess is worthless

I was still talking about the Su-57 but of course you cant determine what new missiles are either of if or the time and date without delay if those missiles will even be fielded. Go click on the russia defense net link to see that discussion. I am only giving a 10 air missile option but your still not explaining why that is not feasible.

Why would I want to read about speculation of a system that isn't even exist on paper yet and purely forum wish?. Even in case of MSDN and SACM, which are actual funded programs, there is little point to discuss them since there are no technical information to discuss. Now you are talking about mini missiles and new rack for Su-57 which doesn't even exist on paper yet.

No I like my chances on the range estimates of the K-77M versions in comparison to Meteor missile. I am well aware of the Meteor's missiles range from one of your own sources. Don't mix up the K-77M to me referencing the range of K-37M.

Iam talking about K-77ME the ramjet version, likely have similar range as Meteor, not K-77M. K-77M won't even come close to Meteor range.

It gives no option for a internal weapons bay placement despite being the same range as the K-37M. Unless the Chinese and the U.S. with the HAWC program are all like fuck stealth.

PL-21 should have better range or speed than R-37 given its aerodynamic shape
HAWC range probably is about 800-1000 km or more, at that distance, you dont really need stealth because no SAM fly that far

 

[panzerfeist1]

I know MSDN is a program of record, the problem is that you don't actually know the load out arrangement or how it actually look like, so it is pointless to talk about it.
Take for example, the load out of MSDN might be extremely high if it look something like this, but the problem is that we don't know if the arrangement is like that, so any guess is worthless

The Su-57 has a pretty big weapons bay and have publicly shown the quad missiles they are working with if there has been any physical appearance of the MSDN. Examples you gave of downsizing projects can also apply to this aircraft since these missiles are new designs that have not been disclosed yet. One country likes to talk about projects before putting in tests, the other likes to put in tests at times before talking about them and I guess we sort of know which is which in this case.

Why would I want to read about speculation of a system that isn't even exist on paper yet and purely forum wish?. Even in case of MSDN and SACM, which are actual funded programs, there is little point to discuss them since there are no technical information to discuss. Now you are talking about mini missiles and new rack for Su-57 which doesn't even exist on paper yet.

Forum wishes sort of belongs at F-16.net those are just multiple articles that gave that size reference. There have been miniature missiles already displayed by pantsir for drones. Even I worry if the mentioned programs will be operational like the DIRCM proposals for the F-35. I am considering smaller missile designs at option that can be integrated to the newer Su-57.

am talking about K-77ME the ramjet version, likely have similar range as Meteor, not K-77M. K-77M won't even come close to Meteor range.

What makes you think they will be the same range? when 193km+ is estimated for just the K-77M and an unpowered glide for Meteor at best was shown at 220kms when have not even gotten to ranges on the K-77ME.

PL-21 should have better range or speed than R-37 given its aerodynamic shape
HAWC range probably is about 800-1000 km or more, at that distance, you dont really need stealth because no SAM fly that far

Yeah but K-37M is given 300-400km based on sources and the PL-21 is given 240-400km ranges based on sources. If what you say is the case based on you don't need stealth for HAWC than the F-35 program would have been cancelled a long time ago and I am starting to see concerns about its development based on F-15 and F-16 production plans along with different hypersonic air to ground project plans

Now you were someone that likes to put so much emphasis to every little detail on stealth that you even get accused in multiple forums by different users to stop spamming images but all of a sudden likes having a stealth aircraft take a non-stealth approach. Its better to launch a hypersonic air to ground missile from 80kms away giving the adversary less notice than launching it 800kms being warned an attack is coming.

 

[StealthFlanker]

The Su-57 has a pretty big weapons bay and have publicly shown the quad missiles they are working with if there has been any physical appearance of the MSDN. Examples you gave of downsizing projects can also apply to this aircraft since these missiles are new designs that have not been disclosed yet. One country likes to talk about projects before putting in tests, the other likes to put in tests at times before talking about them and I guess we sort of know which is which in this case.

Which quad missile? You mean Kh-59MK2? That is basically the same thing as Spear, and quite a massive different from a quad pack air to air missile. And seriously, how is MSDN which is a US program, in any way related to a hypothetical quad pack missiles for Su-57 which at this point literally only exist on forum?
Depend on programs, both Russia and US sometime talk about them before they test and sometime after they test. There isnt any standard to which country talk about program before or after test. Take for example: literally nothing was known about US sea dragon

Forum wishes sort of belongs at F-16.net those are just multiple articles that gave that size reference. There have been miniature missiles already displayed by pantsir for drones. Even I worry if the mentioned programs will be operational like the DIRCM proposals for the F-35. I am considering smaller missile designs at option that can be integrated to the newer Su-57.

You still don't understand. MSDN at least a program of record. Meaning it is funded and it exist. Talking about its size and capability isn't very helpful because all details are currently classified, but at least we know they are developing it. On the otherhand, there isn't any program of record for 10 internal MRAAM for Su-57 so talking about it is just boderline wishful thinking at this point. Even if it supposed to get that in the far future , there is little point to discuss it when about 99% is speculation and you won't even know what the adversary will probably have

What makes you think they will be the same range? when 193km+ is estimated for just the K-77M and an unpowered glide for Meteor at best was shown at 220kms when have not even gotten to ranges on the K-77ME.

Firstly, the 193 km estimate for K-77M is the same type of 185 km estimate for AIM-120D, those are the maximum kinematic range and a world different from what a ramjet missile achieved since ramjet can be powered for major proportion of its flight.
Secondly, the 220 km that you saw wasn't belong to Meteor, it is the estimation of range for a ramjet missile that has the same diameter as AIM-120 but use ramjet.And don't just look at the number, read the text. It isn't "at best" because the launch aircraft and the target are both at 6 km altitude, which is only medium altitude, when you raise the altitude the range will grow significantly because air is thinner and missiles get more potential energy. The maximum turn down ratio of the missile they simulated is 10:1 while the turn down ratio of Meteor is 12:1, that mean Meteor can reduce the fuel flow to even lower rate. And the minimum altitude requirement of that missile is sea level while for Meteor is 6 km. Lower altitude requirement increase booster size and reduce sustainer size so Meteor will have bigger sustainer for longer range.

Yeah but K-37M is given 300-400km based on sources and the PL-21 is given 240-400km ranges based on sources.

And?, most sources don't even care about aerodynamic and just give generic value.

If what you say is the case based on you don't need stealth for HAWC than the F-35 program would have been cancelled a long time ago and I am starting to see concerns about its development based on F-15 and F-16 production plans along with different hypersonic air to ground project plans

Now you were someone that likes to put so much emphasis to every little detail on stealth that you even get accused in multiple forums by different users to stop spamming images but all of a sudden likes having a stealth aircraft take a non-stealth approach. Its better to launch a hypersonic air to ground missile from 80kms away giving the adversary less notice than launching it 800kms being warned an attack is coming.

Firstly, what do you think the purpose of stealth is? To get detect enemy and attack them before they can attack you. What is the purpose of extremely long range weapon? .To attack the enemy before they can attack you by having longer reach. They aim to do the same thing, by different mean.
Stealth advantage is that you can get closer to detect and identify targets better. Standoff weapon advantage is that you can attack targets with further strategic deep.
Secondly, if you aim to attack at close range then there is no need to use standoff hypersonic weapons, you can use weapons with shorter range. Take for example: at close range F-35 can use AARGM-ER, SIAW, THOR-ER ..etc , no need to use HAWC