Sukhoi PAK FA

no smoking

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,057
Likes
2,353
Country flag
Oho dear 70 percentage of the Brahmos was Indigenous, work share was 51-49 India developed 51 percentage of tech . ( Forgot the actual values but somewhat similar what I mentioned)
Oh, please. Everyone knows that Brahmos is based on Russian's P-800.
The company was established on 12 February 1998 and the first flight of missile was 12 June 2001. Before this project, India didn't have any independent cruise missile development project. Suddenly, in just 36 months, India already could provide 51% of technologies?
 

Karthi

New Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
2,214
Likes
17,755
Country flag
Firstly, I don't think you understand what I was saying. Have you ever heard of something called the faraday cage?. A very good example of a faraday cage is the metal mesh on your Microwave oven. You can see what inside but the radiation doesn't burn your face off, if you put your phone inside, it lose signal. Because when the hole is smaller than the wavelength, the radio wave treat the grid as a surface. So specular return get reflected back as if it strike a surface instead of sliding through the hole. The easiest way to understand is to imagine throwing a basket ball at a mesh with hole smaller than the ball, your ball will bounce back.

No, it doesn't make stealth fighter impossible in anyway, stealth fighter is already made from plat surface shaped in a way to direct specular reflection away from the source


F-22 is 18.9 meter long, if the wavelength as long as the F-22 then frequency is 15.8 MHz. The only type of radar with that kind of wavelength are OTH-B and OTH-SW radar, they are massive stationary array that are often kilometers long

Faraday cages are made up of Special materials and is designed in such a way that the inside fields cancel the outside Field . If you are that much sure please explain how a Radar blocker Reflects the entire X band and L band( assuming airborne Radars are using X band L band radars) straight back to the Radar. I don't think Russians scientists are idiots.
 

StealthFlanker

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
879
Likes
1,213
Country flag
Faraday cages are made up of Special materials and is designed in such a way that the inside fields cancel the outside Field . If you are that much sure please explain how a Radar blocker Reflects the entire X band and L band( assuming airborne Radars are using X band L band radars) straight back to the Radar. I don't think Russians scientists are idiots.
Faraday cage is made from metal, there isn't anything unique and special about it, any type of metal: copper, aluminum, iron , steel ...etc,. There is no unique design the gap only need to be small compared to the wavelength, if you want, you can even make a faraday cage yourself.
I didn't say the blocker reflected the radar wave straight back, I said when the hole is smaller than the wavelength, then the specular return start treating your structure as a flat surface, you can angle this surface to deflect radar wave away but the wave will not go into the channel if the gap is too small compared to the wavelength. No one said Russians scientist are idiots but all designs have trade off.
 

StealthFlanker

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
879
Likes
1,213
Country flag
Because it contradicts what you are saying about ramjet designs where you need to sacrifice speed for range and vice-versa perhaps? Like how some sizes remained the same with a bump up in speed and range? Klevok-D2 is a ramjet design that just happens to surpass its predecessor design like the one I have mentioned.
Firstly, I still don't understand what you are comparing the UAV to?
Secondly, you don't understand my point when I said ramjet engine can scarify speed for range. A ramjet engine like any air breathing engine, can adjust its thrust by changing the fuel flow rate. This ability to control the fuel flow is called the throttle ability. If target is 20 km from your aircraft then the thrust is very high for high speed and high acceleration. If target is 200-300 km from your aircraft then the thrust reduced for sustain. You can think of a ramjet missile as a tiny aircraft, imagine you are a pilot of an interceptor, when the target is 100 km from your airbase, you can pull full afterburner to intercept it, but if target is 2000 km from your airbase you have to cruise at subsonic speed or you will ran out of fuel before you get there. Ramjet missiles do the same thing. How much your missile can reduce fuel flow depend on a quantity called the turn down/throttle ratio, the bigger this ratio is, the wider range of thrust that your missile can operate at. You can bump up the range by increasing this ratio but at the maximum range the ratio is at maximum and cruising speed at the minimum and vice versa. The big advantage of ramjet missile is the ability to control the speed.


Sources like this say that? https://www.india.com/news/india/br...uccessful-test-firing-from-su-30-mki-2682176/
"The version which will be fitted on Tejas will be called BrahMos NG (BrahMos Lite) and it will be much lighter although the payload will be the same."
Have it occur to you that this is just another example of a journalist who doesn't know what he talking about?. Just like earlier example when he think the thickness of Salisbury screen is 1/2 wavelength.
Brahmos NG diameter is 20% smaller than BrahMos , to suggest their warhead is the same is laughable


Yup, but there are ramjets that hit mach 5 as well.
and?.


Whatever makes you feel better I guess. https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6478037
"The existing Russian supersonic cruise missiles will be improved by increasing their range and bringing the speed to hypersonic. This was announced in an interview with TASS by the general director, the general designer of NPO Mashinostroyenia (part of the Tactical Missile Arms Corporation) Alexander Leonov."
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6925991
"Expert: onyx-M missile tests with a range of 800 km have already been carried out. According to the chief editor of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine Viktor Murakhovsky, the range has been increased due to the new fuel composition, as well as a lighter and more compact onboard radio electronics."
There is a lot of ambiguity in his comment and what concluded by the journalist. Moving in general direction is a big different from achieving these goals. You don't increase the missile speed to twice as high without changing the aerodynamic and propulsion system significantly
- How do you see the directions for improving cruise missiles, and in particular, how will Onyx change?
- The general trend towards the improvement of cruise missiles is an increase in speed to hypersound, an increase in the range, as well as the versatility of the missile, both in terms of its goals and the launch platform used. We are moving in this direction.

Like I said it deals with air density better.
Who say it doesn't?

Pretty much you are re-iterating the same responses of onyx and brahmos are not this or that when I have already responded to those responses with more sources. Brahmos-2k comes with a 1st and 2nd phase developments, that's a yes. But I am having a hard fucking time copy and pasting the old source which states same ramjet but increasing to mach 5 speeds with more range. https://idrw.org/india-plans-two-hypersonic-brahmos-2k-version-of-the-cruise-missile/ see the 2nd sentence in the 2nd paragraph, than see the last paragraph and last sentence. Than at that point your probably realize that the brahmos version they are getting upgraded has a uncanny resemblance to the two Tass sources I have posted earlier here regarding the Onyx-M speed and range(Holy shit what a coincidence). Believe what you want about the Klevok-D2 but that does not change what the missile corporation statements about that missiles improvement over the Hermes.
Look at their references:
According to source closed to idrw.org What source? a guy down the street?. That hardly strike me as reliable.
Secondly, you still don't understand my point. Just because you can improve top speed doesn't mean you escape from the relationship between range and speed that I explained earlier. For example: F-4 top speed is Mach 2.23, combat radius is about 840 km, for comparison F-15 top speed is Mach 2.5 and combat radius is about 2037 km. So F-15 can fly faster and further than F-4. But that doesn't mean F-15 can fly 2037 km at Mach 2.5. A ramjet missile is very similar. You can make a ramjet missile that has higher top speed and range than the previous version, but for any given shot, it is a trade off between range and speed, you can either have long range shot or very high speed shot, but not both at the sametime. Because when target at long range, missile will throttle back to save fuel, that affect speed.



SPEAR was only mentioned because it was the USN requirement and that the current AARGM-ER despite what Stuart has said wont do since the USN was looking for a ramjet design of the agm-158. Either way with SPEAR being planned for a wider internal weapons bay like the F-35C and that orbital OTK designed a internal weapons bay weapon getting close to hypersonic speeds but they still need a ramjet besides the claimed specs made.
AGM-158 is JASSM, a subsonic stealthy cruise missiles with turbojet engine
AARGM-ER is an extended range, higher speed, internal bay version of AARGM
SPEAR is a separate program from AARGM-ER
 

panzerfeist1

New Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2020
Messages
256
Likes
415
Country flag
Firstly, I still don't understand what you are comparing the UAV to?
Oh, thanks for being cooperative for once I was displaying all those air breathing missiles as projects the country is currently undergoing and the size reference of that one on where it stands.

Secondly, you don't understand my point when I said ramjet engine can scarify speed for range. A ramjet engine like any air breathing engine, can adjust its thrust by changing the fuel flow rate. This ability to control the fuel flow is called the throttle ability. If target is 20 km from your aircraft then the thrust is very high for high speed and high acceleration. If target is 200-300 km from your aircraft then the thrust reduced for sustain. You can think of a ramjet missile as a tiny aircraft, imagine you are a pilot of an interceptor, when the target is 100 km from your airbase, you can pull full afterburner to intercept it, but if target is 2000 km from your airbase you have to cruise at subsonic speed or you will ran out of fuel before you get there. Ramjet missiles do the same thing. How much your missile can reduce fuel flow depend on a quantity called the turn down/throttle ratio, the bigger this ratio is, the wider range of thrust that your missile can operate at. You can bump up the range by increasing this ratio but at the maximum range the ratio is at maximum and cruising speed at the minimum and vice versa. The big advantage of ramjet missile is the ability to control the speed.
I get that point already with the meteor missile, but I have multiple examples of ramjets that just happen to have long ranges with some higher speeds than that missile which is why I am not drawing that conclusion that the K-77ME would be the same until proven otherwise.

Have it occur to you that this is just another example of a journalist who doesn't know what he talking about?. Just like earlier example when he think the thickness of Salisbury screen is 1/2 wavelength.
Brahmos NG diameter is 20% smaller than BrahMos , to suggest their warhead is the same is laughable
https://zeenews.india.com/india/bra...personic-version-being-developed-2230891.html Fine what if the CEO and MD of BrahmosSudhir Kumar Mishra said 800km and hypersonic speeds will that make you feel better? Besides diameter you can always add more space in the back you know? They did somehow manage to add twice the amount of weight of a warhead while having the entire missile of the klevok itself to weigh less than the hermes.

That there is a hypersonic brahmos using ramjet engines instead of scramjets as you said earlier perhaps if you forgot?

There is a lot of ambiguity in his comment and what concluded by the journalist. Moving in general direction is a big different from achieving these goals. You don't increase the missile speed to twice as high without changing the aerodynamic and propulsion system significantly
Oh god I cant stop laughing at the very bad denial right here XD. Alexander said improving the supersonic engine to hypersonic speeds with new fuel composition to get to the 800km range. Even the CEO of Brahmos will tell you the same thing! I will be shocked if you continue to deny this after a CEO on one company and the general director of the other company say the same exact shit.

Who say it doesn't?
no one, other than a agreement being reached.

Look at their references:
According to source closed to idrw.org What source? a guy down the street?. That hardly strike me as reliable.
The guys from the street where one is a CEO located in India and the other is the general director located in Russia will tell you the same exact information, Its like India and Russia are partnered up or something.

Secondly, you still don't understand my point. Just because you can improve top speed doesn't mean you escape from the relationship between range and speed that I explained earlier. For example: F-4 top speed is Mach 2.23, combat radius is about 840 km, for comparison F-15 top speed is Mach 2.5 and combat radius is about 2037 km. So F-15 can fly faster and further than F-4. But that doesn't mean F-15 can fly 2037 km at Mach 2.5. A ramjet missile is very similar. You can make a ramjet missile that has higher top speed and range than the previous version, but for any given shot, it is a trade off between range and speed, you can either have long range shot or very high speed shot, but not both at the sametime. Because when target at long range, missile will throttle back to save fuel, that affect speed.
Yes, yes I get the throttle down speeds for longer range and shorter range if throttle up speeds. But I have found newer ramjets that crank up speeds with increased ranges over there existing size.

AGM-158 is JASSM, a subsonic stealthy cruise missiles with turbojet engine
AARGM-ER is an extended range, higher speed, internal bay version of AARGM
SPEAR is a separate program from AARGM-ER
Apologies for mixing up the agm-158 over the 88, But despite what Stuart said of said specs of AARGM-ER the Navy required a ramjet version, and the ramjet version I can think of is SPEAR.
 

Arihant Roy

New Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2018
Messages
1,515
Likes
12,744
Country flag
Su-57 Bort 052 which is the flying testbed for the second series engine Izdeliye 30 in all her glory.

194048210054.9194.jpg


We will be going for an off the shelf purchase of Su-57 with Item -30 initially followed by licensed production at Ozhar. The Russians will also offer us their Sukhoi S 70 ucav and we will lap that up.
 

NAMICA

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 29, 2020
Messages
1,278
Likes
6,688
Country flag
Su-57 Bort 052 which is the flying testbed for the second series engine Izdeliye 30 in all her glory.

View attachment 71161

We will be going for an off the shelf purchase of Su-57 with Item -30 initially followed by licensed production at Ozhar. The Russians will also offer us their Sukhoi S 70 ucav and we will lap that up.
Ghanta.
 

Salyut

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
25
Likes
32
Country flag
Su-57 Bort 052 which is the flying testbed for the second series engine Izdeliye 30 in all her glory.

View attachment 71161

We will be going for an off the shelf purchase of Su-57 with Item -30 initially followed by licensed production at Ozhar. The Russians will also offer us their Sukhoi S 70 ucav and we will lap that up.
That's what I think, after it ended cooperation with Russia, the only way was to buy the export version! And not allowed to interfere with the system as much as the Su30mki. I think the Su57 with Type30 will be exported in the 2030s! or sooner!
 

Trololo

New Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
701
Likes
2,184
Country flag
Su-57 Bort 052 which is the flying testbed for the second series engine Izdeliye 30 in all her glory.

View attachment 71161

We will be going for an off the shelf purchase of Su-57 with Item -30 initially followed by licensed production at Ozhar. The Russians will also offer us their Sukhoi S 70 ucav and we will lap that up.
Not happening unless AMCA is catastrophically delayed.
 

shade

New Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
15,344
Likes
91,832
Country flag
Not happening unless AMCA is catastrophically delayed.
It’s been 40 years since Tejas went from Idea to working product
Still no confirmed order, because of which no production.
Good luck with AMCA, it is just another MNREGA for DRDO and HAL, nothing will actually materialize just like Arjun, Tejas, WhAp/Kestrel, Abhay etc.

IMPORT HI IMPORT HOGA is this country’s destiny.

Even 56” chest sarkar has to go for imports in form of emergency procurement because of warfighting capability of IA/IAF suffering over decades because of Import dalals and DPSUs playing back and forth ping-pong games in regards to procurement, starving the forces of equipment they need.

Even now (((people))) are salivating over F16 being replacement to MiG 21 rather than Tejas
 

Salyut

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
25
Likes
32
Country flag
It’s been 40 years since Tejas went from Idea to working product
Still no confirmed order, because of which no production.
Good luck with AMCA, it is just another MNREGA for DRDO and HAL, nothing will actually materialize just like Arjun, Tejas, WhAp/Kestrel, Abhay etc.

IMPORT HI IMPORT HOGA is this country’s destiny.

Even 56” chest sarkar has to go for imports in form of emergency procurement because of warfighting capability of IA/IAF suffering over decades because of Import dalals and DPSUs playing back and forth ping-pong games in regards to procurement, starving the forces of equipment they need.

Even now (((people))) are salivating over F16 being replacement to MiG 21 rather than Tejas
If India does AMCA now, it is too much for Indian technology, they will have to buy / cooperate with many foreign companies, and the project can proceed much longer than Tejas.
I have shared yesterday, India has passed a great opportunity to copy the Su30 with lower quality, like China, maybe now they have their own version of Su30! .
Vietnamese problem Nam has suffered, set ambitions too high compared to technology. The result is wasted time and money, creating tons of corruption, and rendering lots of paranoid projects!
 

Trololo

New Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
701
Likes
2,184
Country flag
It’s been 40 years since Tejas went from Idea to working product
Still no confirmed order, because of which no production.
Good luck with AMCA, it is just another MNREGA for DRDO and HAL, nothing will actually materialize just like Arjun, Tejas, WhAp/Kestrel, Abhay etc.

IMPORT HI IMPORT HOGA is this country’s destiny.

Even 56” chest sarkar has to go for imports in form of emergency procurement because of warfighting capability of IA/IAF suffering over decades because of Import dalals and DPSUs playing back and forth ping-pong games in regards to procurement, starving the forces of equipment they need.

Even now (((people))) are salivating over F16 being replacement to MiG 21 rather than Tejas
A good indicator for this is how the LCA Mk2 turns out, including subsystems. Lets hold our statements until then.
 

FalconSlayers

धर्मो रक्षति रक्षितः
New Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2020
Messages
28,260
Likes
195,943
Country flag
How long will it take to complete the AMCA? The Indians need a 5th generation aircraft in order to quickly balance China!
Are you a Russian? Привет.
 

FalconSlayers

धर्मो रक्षति रक्षितः
New Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2020
Messages
28,260
Likes
195,943
Country flag
A good indicator for this is how the LCA Mk2 turns out, including subsystems. Lets hold our statements until then.
Which of the indigenous systems have we purchased in bulk except our Dhruv helicopter? Arjun tank? Tejas? LCH? Kestrel? Small Arms? Import ki bakchodi chalti rahegi.
 

Trololo

New Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
701
Likes
2,184
Country flag
Which of the indigenous systems have we purchased in bulk except our Dhruv helicopter? Arjun tank? Tejas? LCH? Kestrel? Small Arms? Import ki bakchodi chalti rahegi.
Going by the trends I can't say I disagree with you.
But recent trends are beginning to show some light at the end of the tunnel. The Astra Mk1 is the first big Indian A2A weapon that has seen bulk order in the IAF. Same with Aakash, etc. It shows faith and push in the munitions sector.
For platforms the LCA is certainly being pushed by the political forces. Thats why the Mk1A has been brought when the program was on the verge of shutting down. I have some faith in this government. Lets wait and see. We waited 30 years with the Gandhi family's private limited company. So its time to give a political party whose leaders have shown genuine concern and action for this country some time. Else it would be unfair. Lets make a judgement in 2024.
 

Articles

Top