Sukhoi PAK FA

[Kumata]

Thats the US point of view. Russians think otherwise. Methinks a balance is needed with the scales slightly in favour of BVR. But to be no slouch in WVR either if push comes to shove.

Think Our whole fleet is geared towards WVR .. SU 30 specifically...this was one of the outcome post balakot where F16 fired but SU 30 could not fire back...

 

[StealthFlanker]

Nope.
That's why Sukhoi didn't proceed with a pronounced s shaped air intake. There is huge distortion of airflow and poor pressure recovery.
Sukhoi has had good experience with those s shaped intakes in Berkut .
When you want your aircraft to cruise at Mach 1 or less with a top speed of Mach 1.6, s shaped intakes with DL intakes are good. But when you have a top speed of Mach 2.2 and a cruise speed of Mach 1.4, you need some heavy duty intakes with ramps and stuff.

Su-57 original top speed requirement was Mach 2.3 but later reduced to Mach 2. Nevertheless, YF-23 and F-22 both have high speed and an S shaped intake so pressure recovery at high speed isn't why Russian choose a radar blocker instead of an S-duct on Su-57. A straight duct with inlet blocker has 2 advantages over S-duct:
1- It is much lighter because to make an S-duct, you need a lot more material than adding a blocker on a straight duct. Lighter mean your aircraft can have better T/W
2- It takes less space so you can make a smaller aircraft or you can increase the size of the weapon bay.

And Su-57 is VLO from the frontal aspect . The inlet tunnel acts like a RAS unlike the ram coated applique layers in the Raptor intakes . Besides that, there is additional ram treatments .

Nope, an S-duct also act as a radar absorbing structure and even to a much better degree than a blocker. Because the shape and length of an S-duct make radar wave bounce of the wall many times before they can coming out of the duct, the longer the duct and the more curvy it is, the more bounce you will have, and as a result, the bigger accumulated radar absorbing capability. A layer of RAM with modest absorbing capability of 5-15 dB can be accumulated to 60 dB even with a slight curved duct. ( 60 dB mean you reduce radar wave power by 1.000.000 times)

Secondly, when radar wave strike an edge, they will be diffracted, this diffraction effect can cause radar wave to scattered in many directions including straight back, the more edges there are, the more diffraction, an inlet blocker has a lot more edges than an S-duct because an S-duct only has the edge on the inlet lips

Edge diffraction can be reduced by applying edge treatment, which is basically sticking resistive strip on the sharp edges (you will notice the slight off color strip on the wing and inlet leading edge of modern stealth aircraft). But it is easier to apply when the edge is big such as inlet lip and wing edges, it is much harder to apply them on the smaller blocker, and the width of the strip also affect the effective band width

In conclusion, a blocker is better from kinematic and weapon bay aspect while S-duct is better from signature aspect

 

[panzerfeist1]

For the Russians, kinematics and raw agility , maneuverability is more important than complexity, maintainence issues and LO. And Su-57 is VLO from the frontal aspect . The inlet tunnel acts like a RAS unlike the ram coated applique layers in the Raptor intakes . Besides that, there is additional ram treatments .

I mean there are a bunch of stealth reducing features with their presented patent so in terms of maneuverability and stealth sowhy not have both? Although I cant tell if these signature reducing features are as equivalent as S-ducts, which is probably why they rejected it(su-47).

 

[Trololo]

The SU-57 is basically the result of a financial compromise. Sure it could have been all aspect stealth and pack even more electronics and connectivity like the JSF, but the RuAF and RuMoD is highly cash strapped. So they put in their meagre resources to make the Su-57 extremely agile in the air, but with some compromises on stealth and electronics. The latter can be improved over time with upgrades. The former not so much because they are fundamental design limitations.

 

[panzerfeist1]

The SU-57 is basically the result of a financial compromise. Sure it could have been all aspect stealth and pack even more electronics and connectivity like the JSF, but the RuAF and RuMoD is highly cash strapped. So they put in their meagre resources to make the Su-57 extremely agile in the air, but with some compromises on stealth and electronics. The latter can be improved over time with upgrades. The former not so much because they are fundamental design limitations.

Call it however you like but I have a hard time seeing anything else being superior to it, in terms of stealth, electronics and missile technology.

Is Russia's Sukhoi-57 a direct opponent to the American F-35?

Answer has been deleted

qr.ae

Have the air to air and air to ground missiles for the F-35 finally surpassed what the Su-57 uses?

Answer has been deleted

qr.ae

Just a little glad some forums are not a little ban crazy here

Also they seem to be making some strides in photonic radars, metamaterial stealth and some air breathing missile projects.

 

[panzerfeist1]

Also this is a little important as well. https://qr.ae/pNUsPf

 

[StealthFlanker]

Call it however you like but I have a hard time seeing anything else being superior to it, in terms of stealth, electronics and missile technology.

Is Russia's Sukhoi-57 a direct opponent to the American F-35?

Answer has been deleted

qr.ae

Have the air to air and air to ground missiles for the F-35 finally surpassed what the Su-57 uses?

Answer has been deleted

qr.ae

Just a little glad some forums are not a little ban crazy here

Also they seem to be making some strides in photonic radars, metamaterial stealth and some air breathing missile projects.

Why do you make random multiplication for missile range
For example: you cited "Borisov Obnosov clarifies, without naming specific figures, that the range of missiles for the Su-57 exceeds the previously created samples twice. " then you proceed to just multiply all the missile range of all missile by 2 ???. Is that not occur to be oddly and overly optimistic?. He didn't specified which missiles or even which exact version of it that the range got double, which kinda lead to very wild and overly optimistic speculation
For example:
You multiplied the range of KH-59MK2 by 2, so it increased from 550 km to 1100 km????. How can you know that he is not comparing KH-59MK2 (550 km) with KH-59MK (285 km)?. The range for KH-59MK2 is only published 4 month before the CEO given the interview which mean it is a lot more likely that he talked about KH-59MK2 and compared to KH-59MK instead of some new secret KH-59MK3 version to compare with KH-59MK2
and where did you get the information for the sudden 193 km range of K-77M then process to double it with the ramjet version?. Sure I have no doubt that ramjet missile such as Meteor, JNAAM, K-77ME can have very long range thanks to their ability to use oxygen from the atmosphere and the ability to throttle back but the way you come up with the range value just seem totally random
Then the same for RVV-BD, the previous version R-33E has 120 km range, RVV-BD range is 200 km, why do you increased it by 3 times to 600 km?
On the other hand, for US missile, you do the exact opposite, like why you limit the range of AIM-260 down to 200 km max even though there is literally no information about it and AIM-120D already claimed about 185 km?

 

[StealthFlanker]

Also this is a little important as well. https://qr.ae/pNUsPf

Making object transparent to radar wave so that they are harder to detect is not a new concept. The de havilland mosquito which made mostly from wood was said to be harder to detect on radar. Various stealth cruise missile and UAV also have plastic composite fins. But this method isn't popular on aircraft because there are many thing that you can't make transparent to radar such as conducting wires, pilots, electrical equipment..etc, if your skin is transparent to radiowave but everything under it still reflect radiowave then you won't be stealthy. Metamaterial try to get around this issue by bending the wave around the object instead of letting them pass through. But the effective band width is very limited and it is hugely expensive so it won't be used to replace RAM.
secondly, it is easier for an aircraft at lower altitude to track one at higher altitude than vice versa because of ground clutter.

 

[Arihant Roy]

Su-57 original top speed requirement was Mach 2.3 but later reduced to Mach 2. Nevertheless, YF-23 and F-22 both have high speed and an S shaped intake so pressure recovery at high speed isn't why Russian choose a radar blocker instead of an S-duct on Su-57. A straight duct with inlet blocker has 2 advantages over S-duct:
1- It is much lighter because to make an S-duct, you need a lot more material than adding a blocker on a straight duct. Lighter mean your aircraft can have better T/W
2- It takes less space so you can make a smaller aircraft or you can increase the size of the weapon bay.



Nope, an S-duct also act as a radar absorbing structure and even to a much better degree than a blocker. Because the shape and length of an S-duct make radar wave bounce of the wall many times before they can coming out of the duct, the longer the duct and the more curvy it is, the more bounce you will have, and as a result, the bigger accumulated radar absorbing capability. A layer of RAM with modest absorbing capability of 5-15 dB can be accumulated to 60 dB even with a slight curved duct. ( 60 dB mean you reduce radar wave power by 1.000.000 times)

Secondly, when radar wave strike an edge, they will be diffracted, this diffraction effect can cause radar wave to scattered in many directions including straight back, the more edges there are, the more diffraction, an inlet blocker has a lot more edges than an S-duct because an S-duct only has the edge on the inlet lips

Edge diffraction can be reduced by applying edge treatment, which is basically sticking resistive strip on the sharp edges (you will notice the slight off color strip on the wing and inlet leading edge of modern stealth aircraft). But it is easier to apply when the edge is big such as inlet lip and wing edges, it is much harder to apply them on the smaller blocker, and the width of the strip also affect the effective band width

In conclusion, a blocker is better from kinematic and weapon bay aspect while S-duct is better from signature aspect

I agree with most of what you have said. But I have certain differences .

Regarding the s shaped duct, what I wanted to say was that a vanilla s shaped duct made from aluminium , titanium , duralumin alloys won't automatically act as a radar wave absorber. Yes the rf waves will suffer multiple reflections and strike on the inlet walls multiple times and get attenuated . But unless and until there is the requisite ram treatment wherein different materials are applied as laminates in different thickness, the s shaped inlet of the F-22 won't be effective .

We have seen how the ram layers in the I let duct have suffered from delamination and other issues and require frequent maintainance . F-35 improves upon this by having the fibre mat baked into the skin material itself which is wear resistant and doesn't require that level of maintenance.

The Pakfa uses a different concept altogether. The intakes and the duct itself uses composites with exotic material like single walled and multi walled CNT impregnated into it. Accordingly, the duct itself acts as a RAS without any additional applique ram coatings . Am sure Sukhoi has applied the necessary treatment to the intake edges and the duct wet surfaces . This is how Sukhoi differs from Lockheed. Regarding the CNT, Jo had posted many links and material regarding usage of nano stuff in carbon fibre and other composites and also the usage of this in the aluminde compound used to manufacture the LPC of Item 30 .


As for the actual Device S , it's more than a blocker . It's everything combined in one and has multiple structures . Sukhoi JSC had gone to great lengths to ensure that the flow remains steady and distortion free in the duct before it enters the IGV . That's why they resorted to such a duct with a small s shaped bend . The bend is in the vertical plane. Whatever distortion is created by the blocker is alleviated by the structure following it.


As for complexity, Sukhoi has turned a blind eye to it. The complex ramp mechanism and the creation of different shocks at the inlet tip andafter it is testament to that .
If Sukhoi had wanted it simple , it wouldn't have asked for a rotating IRST 101 KSV where the entire mirror head rotates 180 degree and exposes the thick ram treated backside to incoming rf waves. Sukhoi would have asked UOMZ to come up with a faceted aperture and emulated Western practises .

The ramp operation and shock creation in the Su-57 intake edge and inlets is as complex and ingenious to what had been done in the Blackbird .


Sukhoi JSC wasnt ready to compromise on raw kinematics . Yes, initially they planned a top speed of Mach 2.4 which later came down to Mach 2.2 . The temp at which the resin binders of the composites used became ineffective became a constraint .

But Sukhoi had planned for a higher cruise speed than what we see in 4++ gen acs. F-35 can't supercruise except in a shallow dive. Pakfa is said to have a cruise speed of M1.4 + with Item 30 engines. Without an elaborate ramp mechanism, it wouldnt have been possible to cruise continuously at such speeds and achieve such high M2.0 to M2.2 speeds . F-35 can achieve its top speed for a short amount of time. Same is the case with most Western 4th and 4++ acs. Raptor ,Pakfa and YF-23 have been designed ground up for cruising at high Mach for extended periods of time.

Have read that YF-23 PAV-1 was able to achieve Mach 1.5 + without using superburners . They still haven't declassified it's top speed . YF-23 was absolute bonkers and had lower frontal and all aspect RCS .

 

[StealthFlanker]

I agree with most of what you have said. But I have certain differences .
Regarding the s shaped duct, what I wanted to say was that a vanilla s shaped duct made from aluminium , titanium , duralumin alloys won't automatically act as a radar wave absorber. Yes the rf waves will suffer multiple reflections and strike on the inlet walls multiple times and get attenuated . But unless and until there is the requisite ram treatment wherein different materials are applied as laminates in different thickness, the s shaped inlet of the F-22 won't be effective .

It obviously has RAM there so it kind of a moot point

The Pakfa uses a different concept altogether. The intakes and the duct itself uses composites with exotic material like single walled and multi walled CNT impregnated into it. Accordingly, the duct itself acts as a RAS without any additional applique ram coatings . Am sure Sukhoi has applied the necessary treatment to the intake edges and the duct wet surfaces . This is how Sukhoi differs from Lockheed. Regarding the CNT, Jo had posted many links and material regarding usage of nano stuff in carbon fibre and other composites and also the usage of this in the aluminde compound used to manufacture the LPC of Item 30 .

I'm a bit skeptical of that while Su-57 might use CNT RAM similar to F-35, the air inlet of Su-57 seem to be made from aluminum based on the need for anti corrosion coating
Su-57 inlet:

Su-34 aluminum frame:

The ramp operation and shock creation in the Su-57 intake edge and inlets is as complex and ingenious to what had been done in the Blackbird .

Isn't Su-57 inlet operation pretty much the same as F-15?

 

[panzerfeist1]

Why do you make random multiplication for missile range
For example: you cited "Borisov Obnosov clarifies, without naming specific figures, that the range of missiles for the Su-57 exceeds the previously created samples twice. " then you proceed to just multiply all the missile range of all missile by 2 ???. Is that not occur to be oddly and overly optimistic?. He didn't specified which missiles or even which exact version of it that the range got double, which kinda lead to very wild and overly optimistic speculation
For example:
You multiplied the range of KH-59MK2 by 2, so it increased from 550 km to 1100 km????. How can you know that he is not comparing KH-59MK2 (550 km) with KH-59MK (285 km)?. The range for KH-59MK2 is only published 4 month before the CEO given the interview which mean it is a lot more likely that he talked about KH-59MK2 and compared to KH-59MK instead of some new secret KH-59MK3 version to compare with KH-59MK2
and where did you get the information for the sudden 193 km range of K-77M then process to double it with the ramjet version?. Sure I have no doubt that ramjet missile such as Meteor, JNAAM, K-77ME can have very long range thanks to their ability to use oxygen from the atmosphere and the ability to throttle back but the way you come up with the range value just seem totally random
Then the same for RVV-BD, the previous version R-33E has 120 km range, RVV-BD range is 200 km, why do you increased it by 3 times to 600 km?
On the other hand, for US missile, you do the exact opposite, like why you limit the range of AIM-260 down to 200 km max even though there is literally no information about it and AIM-120D already claimed about 185 km?

Borisov states twice hence I multiply by but I cant figure out why at another forum you have added powered and unpowered ramjet flight on a meteor missile like this https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/meteor-vs-r-37-vs-pl-xx.892480/ but atleast you did not mention that over there. http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=56673&start=180 Not trying to be funny but can you please create an account at Russia defense net? I wish there were places that combined sino and india defense net and f-16 and russia defense net not because I want to see a shit flinging contest but other opposing ideas sadly overscan with the username secretprojects was there for only a short while but does not look like he is planning on returning

"He explains that the aircraft has already received six fundamentally new missiles, and by 2020 it will receive six more. Four missile samples are placed inside the fuselage in a special compartment. New air-to-air missiles are: RVV-MD (short-range), SD (medium-range) and DB (long-range). In total, more than 10 new models of aircraft weapons have been developed for the Su-57.

Borisov Obnosov clarifies, without naming specific figures, that the range of missiles for the Su-57 exceeds the previously created samples twice. And this is a very good result, especially since to reduce the visibility of missiles on them, as well as on the Su-57 itself, a special radio absorbing coating is applied."

I know you did not bother reading the post but I already stated that the KH-59MK2(550kms) will more than likely not be on the list because the missile was created 4 months after Borisov made the twice amount range statement(just did the 1100km just for the hell of it) meaning the missile already has twice the range as the previous kh-59 version being 285kms meaning this backs up the 6 newer models being twice the amount of range.

RVV-MD is at 110kms and this was already regarded as one of the fundementally previously new created missiles if you check the rosoboronexport page. https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2016/9/19/6909/print/
"The fighter jet comes armed with K-77M radar-guided missiles with a range of over 120 miles (193km) providing pilots with standoff capabilities ensuring pilot protection, an R-74 infrared-guided missiles that allow for targeting by a pilot using a helmet-mounted optical sight, and a thirty-millimeter cannon with 150 rounds for dogfight battles." I am pretty sure that the ramjet version will of course have a longer range than this, but I do not know if that ramjet version is as slow as the Meteor or fast as the Klevok-D2 when that gets compared to the Hermes missile. But I think we are at a agreement that the possibily of the k-77m ramjet is going to be twice the range of RVV-MD so thats the 2nd point that Borisov was right.

3rd I admit I fucked up but so did you at a certain forum that even totallyaverage called you on and him and me have quite the opposite views regarding a more than 320km range this reminds me of Turkey article claim saying Som-J from 200km will be 2500kms(atleast when US and Russia overexaggerate capabilities they are not that bad compared to Turkey) if you read the paragraph above the chart carefully at that forum they are considered mach 2 or mach 3 flight options and longest range I saw was 220kms which surprised me. But we have heard enough sources stating they were aiming for a 400km air to air missile meaning that the RVV-BD which was shown in 2015 as 200kms with P-33 being 120kms the RVV-BD is considered a previous and new created missile and the next missile he estimated will be twice the range than the previous created one so that is the 3rd missile.

We know the previous created 6 new missiles(air to air and air to ground) of what they are and if you dont I will state them but the two of the air to air missiles and one of the air to ground missiles he has proven right that the fundamentally 6 new missiles will surpass the previous by twice the range. This leaves the other 3 which are highly the kh-58, kh-35 and RVV-MD

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/air-force-aim-260-missiles/ Some say 200km and some say over 200kms. http://www.military-today.com/missiles/aim120_amraam.htm this says 160km range. But you did surprise me with the 220km range meteor because alot of sources told me in excess of 100kms so maybe you will surprise me with these two?

 

[panzerfeist1]

Making object transparent to radar wave so that they are harder to detect is not a new concept. The de havilland mosquito which made mostly from wood was said to be harder to detect on radar. Various stealth cruise missile and UAV also have plastic composite fins. But this method isn't popular on aircraft because there are many thing that you can't make transparent to radar such as conducting wires, pilots, electrical equipment..etc, if your skin is transparent to radiowave but everything under it still reflect radiowave then you won't be stealthy. Metamaterial try to get around this issue by bending the wave around the object instead of letting them pass through. But the effective band width is very limited and it is hugely expensive so it won't be used to replace RAM.
secondly, it is easier for an aircraft at lower altitude to track one at higher altitude than vice versa because of ground clutter.

Should have mentioned the ground clutter part to hocum at f-16.net as well when that obstructs the F-35 viewing SAMs XD. but aircrafts at lower altitudes are not on the ground, they are in the air. If aircrafts cant climb higher most of their view will be down below, I had this conversation with Marek at spacebattle and even whiskey stated this to me

"Higher altitude gives a positional advantage that confers greater freedom to attack and defend. You have a longer radar horizon, and missiles launched from lower altitude have to expend more fuel to reach you, so in turn it is easier to evade them and thus not die. You also get greater "sling" range for a number of air-to-ground weapons; glide bombs like the SDB and SDB II can achieve ranges of over 100 kilometers with high(er) altitude releases. It is in effect a basic principle of fighter combat that being Obi-Wan instead of Anakin is a Good Thing."

Chinese made claims that such material would make their aircrafts 1000 times smaller while Russians have claimed it is better than physically designing or using RAM absorption. Just don't know where the U.S. stands in this field.

 

[panzerfeist1]

I'm a bit skeptical of that while Su-57 might use CNT RAM similar to F-35, the air inlet of Su-57 seem to be made from aluminum based on the need for anti corrosion coating

Your buddy LMFS gots you covered from Russia defense net.

I didn't remember but Marchukov talked about this at his famous N+1 interview:

In 2013, the developers showed high pressure compressor blades for the second stage engine, intended for installation on the Su-57. They were made from titanium aluminide - an alloy of titanium and aluminum. Information appeared in the media that the same alloy can be used for the manufacture of blades for the low-pressure turbine "Product 30". But later all these works were suspended. According to Marchukov, titanium aluminide is not suitable for a military engine.

“Titanium aluminide blades are used in the very last stages of the low pressure turbine on civil aircraft, where the gas temperature is relatively low. This results in significant weight savings, as civil engines have multistage turbines. In a military engine, the gas temperature even in front of a low-pressure turbine is much higher, and titanium aluminide is simply inapplicable in these conditions, ”explained the General Designer of the A. Lyulka Design Bureau

“Intermetallics like titanium aluminide are not suitable for compressor blades either. This material is fragile, and any nick on the shoulder blade is fraught with its destruction. And the weight savings for the compressor are insignificant, "added Marchukov

Not even going to bother with the rest of the other shit you post..

In other news the Su-57 loyal wingman Su-70 has launched a simulated air to air missile.

Источник: ударный беспилотник "Охотник" впервые испытали с ракетами - РИА Новости, 02.12.2020 (ria.ru)

Rostec supposedly working on a new 5th gen fighter but I would not have my hopes up until the military industry approves it. "Ростех" инициативно работает над созданием легкого истребителя 5-го поколения в пилотируемом и беспилотном вариантах - Чемезов - (militarynews.ru)

Rostec is proactively working on the creation of a lightweight 5th generation fighter in manned and unmanned versions - Chemezov

Possible joint development of such an aircraft with foreign partners

Moscow. December 7. INTERFAX - Rostec is developing the concept of a light single-engine fifth-generation fighter with its own funds, head of the state corporation Sergei Chemezov told reporters.

"Indeed, the creation of a combat aviation system of the future in the light and middle class is being worked out. According to the plan, it can be a universal platform, in manned and unmanned versions. The concept and tactical and technical requirements for such a complex are being worked out," Chemezov said.
He noted that this topic is interesting from the point of view of promoting such an aircraft for export.

"So far, we are doing this proactively without budget funds. The Ministry of Defense has not made any orders. Nevertheless, we believe that this is a promising aircraft and we are considering, including various options for cooperation with foreign partners," said the head of Rostec.

According to him, if the development of the aircraft is carried out at the expense of the state corporation's own funds, then Rostec can independently sell this technique abroad, especially in the case of joint development with any state.
"Although the Ministry of Defense can purchase this aircraft for its own needs. Naturally, if a decision is made, it will need to be finalized for the internal appearance required by the Ministry of Defense," Chemezov added.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Borisov states twice hence I multiply by but I cant figure out why at another forum you have added powered and unpowered ramjet flight on a meteor missile like this https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/meteor-vs-r-37-vs-pl-xx.892480/ but atleast you did not mention that over there. http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=56673&start=180

Yes I made a topic in spacebattles after seeing sprstdlyscottsmn simulation, garrya and marauder2048 discussion, there was another simulation made by JaeSan. That why I agree ramjet missile can potentially have very long range. But you see, in these discussions and simulations, the range for Meteor is estimate and calculate very carefully taking into account Cd0, fuel flow rate, throttle ratio, air density and AoA. It isn't some general double multiplication. So I'm aboard. But the way you delivered the range for R-77ME look like you just try to find an excuse to increase the range regardless of whether that is reasonable.

Not trying to be funny but can you please create an account at Russia defense net? I wish there were places that combined sino and india defense net and f-16 and russia defense net not because I want to see a shit flinging contest but other opposing ideas sadly overscan with the username secretprojects was there for only a short while but does not look like he is planning on returning

I often open an account in a forum if I see the discussion have some level of technical perspective. secretproject is a good forum because even though people have various opinions, they argue from a technical and physics stand point. So it isn't just mindlessly repeating brochures and marketing value but also decent selection of numbers. F-16.net is more bias toward US equipment but they do have real F-16 and F-18 pilot such as Gums, tailgate and aero engineer like Johnwills, sprstdlyscottsmn. So if you ignore the national chest thumping then discussing issues with these pilots and engineer are very interesting. Spacebattles is like a mix of F-16.net and secretproject but the level of technical discussion there is not as good. Defense india is quite similar to spacebattle but very balance view toward Western and
Russiandefense.net is just as bias as F-16.net but toward Russian equipment instead. However, there isn't an Su-35 pilot or S-400 commander there as far as I know so it just not interesting enough for me. But each have their own preference

"He explains that the aircraft has already received six fundamentally new missiles, and by 2020 it will receive six more. Four missile samples are placed inside the fuselage in a special compartment. New air-to-air missiles are: RVV-MD (short-range), SD (medium-range) and DB (long-range). In total, more than 10 new models of aircraft weapons have been developed for the Su-57.

Borisov Obnosov clarifies, without naming specific figures, that the range of missiles for the Su-57 exceeds the previously created samples twice. And this is a very good result, especially since to reduce the visibility of missiles on them, as well as on the Su-57 itself, a special radio absorbing coating is applied."

I know you did not bother reading the post but I already stated that the KH-59MK2(550kms) will more than likely not be on the list because the missile was created 4 months after Borisov made the twice amount range statement(just did the 1100km just for the hell of it) meaning the missile already has twice the range as the previous kh-59 version being 285kms meaning this backs up the 6 newer models being twice the amount of range.

RVV-MD is at 110kms and this was already regarded as one of the fundementally previously new created missiles if you check the rosoboronexport page. https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2016/9/19/6909/print/
"The fighter jet comes armed with K-77M radar-guided missiles with a range of over 120 miles (193km) providing pilots with standoff capabilities ensuring pilot protection, an R-74 infrared-guided missiles that allow for targeting by a pilot using a helmet-mounted optical sight, and a thirty-millimeter cannon with 150 rounds for dogfight battles."

Why do you think the double range treatment is for all missiles and not just the KH-59MK2? Is that not strike you as oddly convenience?
RVV-MD is a version of R-73 and the max range is 40 km, where did you get the 100 km from?

Air-to-air guided missile RVV-MD | Catalog Rosoboronexport

The RVV-MD air-to-air guided missile is designed to destroy air targets (fighters, attack aircraft, bombers, helicopters and military transport aircraft) from any direction, day or night, against the ...

roe.ru

I am pretty sure that the ramjet version will of course have a longer range than this, but I do not know if that ramjet version is as slow as the Meteor or fast as the Klevok-D2 when that gets compared to the Hermes missile. But I think we are at a agreement that the possibily of the k-77m ramjet is going to be twice the range of RVV-MD so thats the 2nd point that Borisov was right.

Firstly, Klevok-D2 has very different aerodynamic and it doesn't need space for a terminal radar seeker, battery, datalink and radio fuse so you can't compare it to air to air missile like K-77M and Meteor.
Secondly, there is conservation of energy, ramjet missile can fly far because they don't need to carry oxidizer and they can throttle back to reduce the fuel flow rate. When you reduce the thrust, you will fly slower. So you can have the range or the speed, but not both at the same time. K-77M and Meteor can fly far if they trade the speed. Klevok-D2 can fly fast if it trade the range

3rd I admit I fucked up but so did you at a certain forum that even totallyaverage called you on and him and me have quite the opposite views regarding a more than 320km range this reminds me of Turkey article claim saying Som-J from 200km will be 2500kms(atleast when US and Russia overexaggerate capabilities they are not that bad compared to Turkey) if you read the paragraph above the chart carefully at that forum they are considered mach 2 or mach 3 flight options and longest range I saw was 220kms which surprised me. But we have heard enough sources stating they were aiming for a 400km air to air missile meaning that the RVV-BD which was shown in 2015 as 200kms with P-33 being 120kms the RVV-BD is considered a previous and new created missile and the next missile he estimated will be twice the range than the previous created one so that is the 3rd missile.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say. So RVV-BD range is 400 km?

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/air-force-aim-260-missiles/ Some say 200km and some say over 200kms. http://www.military-today.com/missiles/aim120_amraam.htm this says 160km range. But you did surprise me with the 220km range meteor because alot of sources told me in excess of 100kms so maybe you will surprise me with these two?

There is no range estimation for AIM-260 because there is absolutely nothing is known about the missile yet, not even the shape. Any source that try to tell you the exact range of AIM-260 is talking out of their ass.


AIM-120D has 50% range improvement over the previous version, basic AIM-120launched at high altitude can fly as far as 130 km. 130*1.5 = 195 km.

The AIM-120D (P3I Phase 4, formerly known as AIM-120C-8) is a development of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, improved HOBS (High-Angle Off-Boresight) capability, and a 50% increase in range.

Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM

 

[StealthFlanker]

Should have mentioned the ground clutter part to hocum at f-16.net as well when that obstructs the F-35 viewing SAMs XD. but aircrafts at lower altitudes are not on the ground, they are in the air. If aircrafts cant climb higher most of their view will be down below, I had this conversation with Marek at spacebattle and even whiskey stated this to me

"Higher altitude gives a positional advantage that confers greater freedom to attack and defend. You have a longer radar horizon, and missiles launched from lower altitude have to expend more fuel to reach you, so in turn it is easier to evade them and thus not die. You also get greater "sling" range for a number of air-to-ground weapons; glide bombs like the SDB and SDB II can achieve ranges of over 100 kilometers with high(er) altitude releases. It is in effect a basic principle of fighter combat that being Obi-Wan instead of Anakin is a Good Thing."

Yes ground clutter affect airborne radar, that why we need SAR and GMTI to view ground target and you don't need to be on ground to take advantage of ground clutter. As long as the viewing angle include both the aircraft and the ground surface.
Radar horizon is the line of sight, when you climb higher you get longer line of sight but so is your enemy

Chinese made claims that such material would make their aircrafts 1000 times smaller while Russians have claimed it is better than physically designing or using RAM absorption. Just don't know where the U.S. stands in this field.

1000 times is 30 dB, we can already make RAM with even higher absorbing rating. But absorbing rating isn't the only important aspect of RAM, the other vital aspects are thickness, structure strength, incident angle dependency and bandwidth.
Technically speaking, a Salisbury screen (one of the most basic RAM) has infinite absorbing effect at frequency of interest when a matched load 377ohms is provided but you won't see it on any stealth aircraft and stealth ship because it need to be a quarter wavelength thick, very depend on incident angle and very narrow band width.

Your buddy LMFS gots you covered from Russia defense net.
I didn't remember but Marchukov talked about this at his famous N+1 interview:
In 2013, the developers showed high pressure compressor blades for the second stage engine, intended for installation on the Su-57. They were made from titanium aluminide - an alloy of titanium and aluminum. Information appeared in the media that the same alloy can be used for the manufacture of blades for the low-pressure turbine "Product 30". But later all these works were suspended. According to Marchukov, titanium aluminide is not suitable for a military engine.
“Titanium aluminide blades are used in the very last stages of the low pressure turbine on civil aircraft, where the gas temperature is relatively low. This results in significant weight savings, as civil engines have multistage turbines. In a military engine, the gas temperature even in front of a low-pressure turbine is much higher, and titanium aluminide is simply inapplicable in these conditions, ”explained the General Designer of the A. Lyulka Design Bureau
“Intermetallics like titanium aluminide are not suitable for compressor blades either. This material is fragile, and any nick on the shoulder blade is fraught with its destruction. And the weight savings for the compressor are insignificant, "added Marchukov

I'm talking about the inlet duct and not the engine compressor blades.

 

[panzerfeist1]

Yes I made a topic in spacebattles after seeing sprstdlyscottsmn simulation, garrya and marauder2048 discussion, there was another simulation made by JaeSan. That why I agree ramjet missile can potentially have very long range. But you see, in these discussions and simulations, the range for Meteor is estimate and calculate very carefully taking into account Cd0, fuel flow rate, throttle ratio, air density and AoA. It isn't some general double multiplication. So I'm aboard. But the way you delivered the range for R-77ME look like you just try to find an excuse to increase the range regardless of whether that is reasonable.

The double multiplication was made based on Borisovs statement the new 6 missiles being received will surpass the previously new created 6 missiles that were made. K-77ME of range being delivered......uhm no had a damn clue that ramjet K-77M was even considered a thing or even a serious project until last October. There have been R-77 and K-77M ramjet proposals but none were seen as serious projects until getting test fired. You can find multiple sources all over the web stating the max range as over 193kms stating K-77M not K-77ME. There of course are undisclosed missile projects(K-77ME) like the giant black missile online images have shown of the mig-31 was carrying

I often open an account in a forum if I see the discussion have some level of technical perspective. secretproject is a good forum because even though people have various opinions, they argue from a technical and physics stand point. So it isn't just mindlessly repeating brochures and marketing value but also decent selection of numbers. F-16.net is more bias toward US equipment but they do have real F-16 and F-18 pilot such as Gums, tailgate and aero engineer like Johnwills, sprstdlyscottsmn. So if you ignore the national chest thumping then discussing issues with these pilots and engineer are very interesting. Spacebattles is like a mix of F-16.net and secretproject but the level of technical discussion there is not as good. Defense india is quite similar to spacebattle but very balance view toward Western and
Russiandefense.net is just as bias as F-16.net but toward Russian equipment instead. However, there isn't an Su-35 pilot or S-400 commander there as far as I know so it just not interesting enough for me. But each have their own preference

The only reason I state this is I do not know how far you are in terms of information regarding Russian related military weapon projects. Examples include the Klevok-D2 project, Pantsir-SM having twice the missile and radar range of previous Pantsir-SM range but with ability to handle smaller size drones and loitering ammunition, Tor-m2 getting cheaper and smaller missiles that cost less than drones themselves project claims, different S-400 radars sets and new one in development, new EW systems that surpass the krasukhas, etc and some of that can be detrimental to the F-35s SEAD or DEAD operations. Russia defense net is like F-16.net but there a slightly different kick to it, they do not ban members that have different views like yourself creating an account there. For example I do browse F-16.net and secretprojects in terms of U.S. weapon projects even when when I got slapped with a ban.

Why do you think the double range treatment is for all missiles and not just the KH-59MK2? Is that not strike you as oddly convenience?
RVV-MD is a version of R-73 and the max range is 40 km, where did you get the 100 km from?

3 of the 6 new missiles in developement are already showing the promises made by Borisov. He also named 3 of the previous created 6 missiles which all were air to air so that makes it very easy what the re-maining 3 missiles are and they are air to ground. That leaves the other 3 missiles which seem to be the RVV-MD, Kh-58 and kh-35. KH-35 had its engine last updated in 2012, kh-58 did not have a engine replacement since its introduction in 2007, cant find a date of RVV-MD creations but an article states it back in 2009. Than of course there is the Su-57 from 2022-2024 getting new missiles, avionics and engines sums up a good chance that the newer missiles will exceed those ranges based on Borisov's statements. kh-59mk had a article statement back in 2010, mk2 domestic which came four months after Borisov's statement in 2018 pretty much got the range to be twice as much as the kh-59mk. They were talking about a internal kinzhal ammunition being created back in February 2020(might be the supposedly new 6 missiles that Borisov stated the su-57 will get in 2020, like its all coming together) but your anti-radiation missile story inspired me the same might happen to the kh-58.

Firstly, Klevok-D2 has very different aerodynamic and it doesn't need space for a terminal radar seeker, battery, datalink and radio fuse so you can't compare it to air to air missile like K-77M and Meteor.
Secondly, there is conservation of energy, ramjet missile can fly far because they don't need to carry oxidizer and they can throttle back to reduce the fuel flow rate. When you reduce the thrust, you will fly slower. So you can have the range or the speed, but not both at the same time. K-77M and Meteor can fly far if they trade the speed. Klevok-D2 can fly fast if it trade the range

This is exactly the reason why I want you to have a Russia defense net account, not because I think its funny that you will be butting heads with people over there. https://qr.ae/pNganJ(not trying to boost my view counts, I already have enough) Yeah I know we still have disagreements with the other missile projects but just look at the Klevok-D2 section and what is known is that it is the same length as the 100km Hermes, has a over 100km range claim but based on the ramjet portion and 210mm booster I am getting a 157.76kms range give or take distance, also carries twice the warhead payload weight, Klevok-D2 is estimated to still weigh a little less than the original 100km Hermes, speeds of 7000 km/hr are claimed at the ramjet portion of its flight. Of course this missile is going to be a very big pain in the ass to create based on those requirements which is why they estimate 2025 testing and entering the army by 2030. But bringing up to air to air missiles I sort of have a reason to do so because the AIM-120D is estimated as a 180mm diameter and 3.7 length meter missile. Me using the 210mm booster stage and assuming the ramjet is also 210mm and not like the 130mm sustainer stage. I will assume the entire diameter is 210mm and the length is easy because it has to fit in a 3.5 meter tube. Aim-120D weighs 152kg while the new Klevok-D2 based on source is said to weigh less than 150kg, Klevok-D2 is of course a surface to surface kind of missile but I am very very sure that, you can decrease the diameter to increase the length a little more(assuming that the ramjet taking over the sustainer stage is still 210mm and not 130mm) which might decrease the range by a little, but you can definitely lower the huge warhead payload weight to meet air to air missile requirement with the addition of being air launched as well we would get some pretty significant range with those speeds blasting ahead.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say. So RVV-BD range is 400 km?

the image presentation of that RVV-BD 200km range(Borisov was there himself) was shown at 2015. But Borisov also stated the air to air missile as the previous created sample in 2018(which is that missile) where a new sample exceeds the previous sample twice the range. And of course sources even from before have estimated the K-37M as 400kms so any new created sample would give the 2nd variant su-57 a 400km air to air missile.

There is no range estimation for AIM-260 because there is absolutely nothing is known about the missile yet, not even the shape. Any source that try to tell you the exact range of AIM-260 is talking out of their ass.
AIM-120D has 50% range improvement over the previous version, basic AIM-120launched at high altitude can fly as far as 130 km. 130*1.5 = 195 km.

Do you have any sources of the AIM-120D max range because all it takes is a simple google search that goes AIM-120D max range and it would immediately throw 160kms in front of my face. I was hoping that you had a similiar source to the meteor with a unpowered flight showing 220kms. I cant even read that chart, I mean all I see is a line going from 0 to a little over 40 on the left and 0 to a little over 120kms on the right. I dont even think copy and pasting that image to yandex file image upload would even translate that to english because the damn Cryillic looks a little worn out.

"The AIM-120D (P3I Phase 4, formerly known as AIM-120C-8) is a development of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, improved HOBS (High-Angle Off-Boresight) capability, and a 50% increase in range. "

google search • AIM-120C-5: >105 km so being 50% more gives it a 52.5kms + 105 = 157.5km range? Is that why I keep getting 160kms whenever I search aim-120D max range?

 

[panzerfeist1]

Yes ground clutter affect airborne radar, that why we need SAR and GMTI to view ground target and you don't need to be on ground to take advantage of ground clutter. As long as the viewing angle include both the aircraft and the ground surface.
Radar horizon is the line of sight, when you climb higher you get longer line of sight but so is your enemy

Looks to me in that image that a lower altitude aircraft will be above the earth in the clear region not at the clutter zone. There is also a clear region where ground clutter does not occur. But if the F-35 for example does want to fly in a ground clutter region at lower altitudes this will lose its air to air missiles range to climb up because it is even lower than before along with depending which airspace it is in to be more targetabble from any SAMs down below.

1000 times is 30 dB, we can already make RAM with even higher absorbing rating. But absorbing rating isn't the only important aspect of RAM, the other vital aspects are thickness, structure strength, incident angle dependency and bandwidth.
Technically speaking, a Salisbury screen (one of the most basic RAM) has infinite absorbing effect at frequency of interest when a matched load 377ohms is provided but you won't see it on any stealth aircraft and stealth ship because it need to be a quarter wavelength thick, very depend on incident angle and very narrow band width.

RAM is better? does not seem like it here more like equal in absorption and its still considered an ongoing field for countries pursuing it like photonic integrated circuits https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/app.47241 Also reading the latest 2020 articles from the Chinese and Russians(with italian colleagues) I am getting a little dejavu reading what both have to say.

https://webcache.googleusercontent....nd-fighter-planes/+&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[/URL]

Google Translate

Both 2020 Chinese and Russian articles literally state why the fuck do we have to sacrifice aerodynamic performance for RAM and shaping when this can help resolve that(I see why your not a big fan of metamaterials). They also talk about it being a part of the antennas not only for increased stealth but better radar performance. Talk about alot of similarities between the articles. I cannot copy any text from the cached version(original version gives me 404 error code)

I remember you have posted the lockheed and northrup ram comparison of the f-117. Where lower frequencies show a 10 times increase in radar signature size. and pretty much that is probably what the Chinese are referring to regarding low and high frequency absorption that metamaterial is better in that regard.

I'm talking about the inlet duct and not the engine compressor blades.

compressor blades are inside inlet, question is where did you get information that inlet is made out of aluminum since that claim passed to the blades, everyone took that as true while some said that was completely false. As always a pleasure to talk to you.

 

[panzerfeist1]

I cannot re-edit my answer but in that missile graph is that saying 20km as in a 20km flight ceiling? and is that line passed the 120km range at a 26 or 27km height? I dont think i can translate that page but if that is the case I dont think there is any aircraft with that kind of flight ceiling which is why they gave a 105km range for aim-120C source. I never expected you do be the kind of person to proudly reference a Russian source regarding a US missile anyways.

 

[Neptune]

The use of virtual reality/holograms to train and help manufacture the SU-57. Very rare/never before seen parts of SU-57:


A collection of more videos:

Konkurs2019

View and download from Yandex.Disk

yadi.sk

And a few screen shots:

 

[panzerfeist1]

Heard LMFS got this from Jo Asakura(shocked I thought he only had a key aero account)

Konkurs2019 — Yandex.Disk (yadi.sk)

Konkurs2019 — Yandex.Disk (yadi.sk)

More videos I suppose of holograms.