Sukhoi PAK FA

[Vijyes]

Yes, but I've tould about it as an example.

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One way or another ATF or any other jet fuel is just kerosene. It may be mixed with some amount of gasoline or additives but it is still kerosene.

 

[TPFscopes]

India is not willing to take an item at the mercy of Russia

Bro, It is known as business, not mercy. India is a part of program since 2007 as per official record. work share is very dependent of the experience.

As it is already discussed that FGFA will be a twin seat variant of PAK-FA/T-50/Su-57 , than there should be no doubt about it..

 

[Vijyes]

Bro, It is known as business, not mercy. India is a part of program since 2007 as per official record. work share is very dependent of the experience.

As it is already discussed that FGFA will be a twin seat variant of PAK-FA/T-50/Su-57 , than there should be no doubt about it..

Buying useless items is not business but extravagance. No ToT means it is useless

 

[TPFscopes]

Buying useless items is not business but extravagance. No ToT means it is useless

do you have something better for IAF?
and what do you about the ToT level of transfer for FGFA deal , as it is not yet officially signed ?

 

[Armand2REP]

do you have something better for IAF?
and what do you about the ToT level of transfer for FGFA deal , as it is not yet officially signed ?

Buy more Rafale, that is what is being discussed by the IAF and MoD. A follow on order would cut into FGFA funding, maybe postponing it indefinitely. It looks like the Rafale offsets are going into good use with Kaveri and possible Super 30 engine assistance. Radar and avionics assistance will come with more offsets. France can push the ball on all of the aviation projects, Tejas upgrads, AMCA, helicopters... whatever India wants.

 

[gadeshi]

One way or another ATF or any other jet fuel is just kerosene. It may be mixed with some amount of gasoline or additives but it is still kerosene.

Deciline is not kerosene in basis, but it won't be used in aircraft engines cause it eats engine lifetime intensively.

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[TPFscopes]

Buy more Rafale, that is what is being discussed by the IAF and MoD. A follow on order would cut into FGFA funding, maybe postponing it indefinitely. It looks like the Rafale offsets are going into good use with Kaveri and possible Super 30 engine assistance. Radar and avionics assistance will come with more offsets. France can push the ball on all of the aviation projects, Tejas upgrads, AMCA, helicopters... whatever India wants.

Being dependent on one side would be more dangerous in near future, also FGFA will come with a significant amount of ToT.

 

[Vijyes]

Deciline is not kerosene in basis, but it won't be used in aircraft engines cause it eats engine lifetime intensively.

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Military engines are generally robust that in case of fuel shortages, kerosene or diesel can substitute each other with some additives or mixtures.

It is dieseline (diesel + gasoline) and that can substitute Kerosene but is uncommon as gasoline is generally avoided as far as possible. Military aircrafts have it in mind that in case oil supply is unavailable, coal liquefaction fuels - diesel (70%), kerosene (10%), gasoline (10%) and other fuels like shipping oil, naphtha rest 10% - have to be used. So, generally a mixture of diesel, gasoline and kerosene can also be used as emergency measures though it is not used normally as it will decrease engine life

 

[TPFscopes]

T-50-2 experiencing dual engine compressor stall during extreme maneuvering.

 

[gadeshi]

Military engines are generally robust that in case of fuel shortages, kerosene or diesel can substitute each other with some additives or mixtures.

It is dieseline (diesel + gasoline) and that can substitute Kerosene but is uncommon as gasoline is generally avoided as far as possible. Military aircrafts have it in mind that in case oil supply is unavailable, coal liquefaction fuels - diesel (70%), kerosene (10%), gasoline (10%) and other fuels like shipping oil, naphtha rest 10% - have to be used. So, generally a mixture of diesel, gasoline and kerosene can also be used as emergency measures though it is not used normally as it will decrease engine life

Deciline is not diesel

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[gadeshi]

T-50-2 experiencing dual engine compressor stall during extreme maneuvering.

It's a fuel dump on show

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[TPFscopes]

It's a fuel dump on show

Nah, its not fuel dump/jettison

 

[TPFscopes]

T-50-2 performing fuel jettisoning / fuel dumping...

 

[Armand2REP]

Being dependent on one side would be more dangerous in near future, also FGFA will come with a significant amount of ToT.

If the source is reliable it is not a risk. Russia has proven far less dependable as a supplier much less sharing ToT.

 

[TPFscopes]

If the source is reliable it is not a risk. Russia has proven far less dependable as a supplier much less sharing ToT.

FGFA case is bit different from all past deals.
We are not buying FGFA from Russia but it is designated as a Indo-Russian JV just like BrahMos.
We can expect much more than ToT or a Licence production aka screw driver job..
But it will be better to wait for deal rather than speculations...

 

[Armand2REP]

FGFA case is bit different from all past deals.
We are not buying FGFA from Russia but it is designated as a Indo-Russian JV just like BrahMos.
We can expect much more than ToT or a Licence production aka screw driver job..
But it will be better to wait for deal rather than speculations...

But why is it different than past deals? Gorshkov was a disaster, T-90 was a disaster, Kilo's were a disaster, MiG-29 and MKI are coming into part shortages. How many disasters do you need before you kick a bad habit?

 

[Vijyes]

FGFA case is bit different from all past deals.
We are not buying FGFA from Russia but it is designated as a Indo-Russian JV just like BrahMos.
We can expect much more than ToT or a Licence production aka screw driver job..
But it will be better to wait for deal rather than speculations...

Do you know that brahmos is also a screw driver job where the most important parts - motor and seeker is purely Russian without any ToT whatsoever. It was Israel that gave seeker ToT to India for Barak-8 missiles which can be used for brahmos too.

 

[TPFscopes]

But why is it different than past deals? Gorshkov was a disaster, T-90 was a disaster, Kilo's were a disaster, MiG-29 and MKI are coming into part shortages. How many disasters do you need before you kick a bad habit?

yup, Gorshkov was more than a disaster. but all others are fine except INS Sindhurakshak sub accident.
For Mig-29 and MKI , the logistics issue was already resolved.
over all, T-90 and MKIs are the frontline soldiers of India.

These all deals are either direct purchase or licence productions but The FGFA deal will be a Indo-Russian JV.
It means we own all technical rights of the fighter. We do not have to ask Russian counterpart for anything to do with the jet for our own Use. And for export purposes, we reserve the right to cancel or pass it.
It is very much similar (operations) to BrahMos Joint Venture.

 

[TPFscopes]

Do you know that brahmos is also a screw driver job where the most important parts - motor and seeker is purely Russian without any ToT whatsoever. It was Israel that gave seeker ToT to India for Barak-8 missiles which can be used for brahmos too.

Do you know?
The Russia supplies less than 65% of content, used to manufacture Brahmos and rest of the content is Indigenous.

For Example:
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...vers-brahmos-missile-components/1/325995.html

 

[Vijyes]

yup, Gorshkov was more than a disaster. but all others are fine except INS Sindhurakshak sub accident.
For Mig-29 and MKI , the logistics issue was already resolved.
over all, T-90 and MKIs are the frontline soldiers of India.

These all deals are either direct purchase or licence productions but The FGFA deal will be a Indo-Russian JV.
It means we own all technical rights of the fighter. We do not have to ask Russian counterpart for anything to do with the jet for our own Use. And for export purposes, we reserve the right to cancel or pass it.
It is very much similar (operations) to BrahMos Joint Venture.

Unless the most critical part - engine can be made in India, FGFA is an import. Brahmos is also an import. The shakti engine of our helicopters is also import. JV is just a fancy term which just specifies ownership and share of profit and not necessarily the joint manufacturing rights of the item in the country. Brahmos JV is just a company that assembles, not something that manufactures Brahmos. Brahmos JV acquires the parts from different sources and fits them together. It merely serves as a way to develop the technical skills if assembly to our technicians