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airtel

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Can you guess where Brasil is getting its nuclear powered submarine... I can tell you it isn't Russia.
Indians started working on this technology 2 decades ago and Ins Arihunt is already Inducted in Indian navy ...........what is the status of Brazilian nuclear submarine ??

Hint = http://www.janes.com/article/71578/brazil-s-nuclear-submarine-project-faces-postponement

Instead of T-90 you could have had Leclerc, it is under the transport weight and several times the tank that debacle has been. Instead of Kilo it could have been Agosta. .
Indian T-90 has Indian Armor , Gun and electronics .............we need tank Engine Technology but France Tank Lecrec is using Wärtsilä Engines ( Finland ).
Also lecrec is extremely costly .

Indians Bought dolphin Scorpène Class submarine ? Pakistan is using Agosta how we can buy the same submarine ??
 

lcafanboy

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Instead of Gorshkov, India could have opted for a refit of the Foch, including catapults. That would be much more capable than a ski-jump. Instead of T-90 you could have had Leclerc, it is under the transport weight and several times the tank that debacle has been. Instead of Kilo it could have been Agosta. MiG-29 could have been more M2000s, instead of MKI it could have been way more Rafale. Not only does France have an export to match Russia, it outclasses it in most cases, especially in support, ToT and timelines.
FOCH was way to small and rust bucket with practically no life left. Rafales were not even into production when we were operating at least 60 Sukhois and were simply not up to the SU30mki technologically, it is only now with AESA and Spectra that technologically it has just surpassed it but with Super Sukhoi upgrade Rafales will be biting dust again. T-90s have proven their mettle in syria and are good enough for our threat scenario and comes at lower cost than Leclerc. Again Kilo class submarines are one of the most feared and deadliest submarines and are no pushovers. Between Mig 29s and Mirages yes Mirages are better but at double the cost........ all french weapons cost double or thrice the price.........
 

Armand2REP

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Indians started working on this technology 2 decades ago and Ins Arihunt is already Inducted in Indian navy ...........what is the status of Brazilian nuclear submarine ??

Hint = http://www.janes.com/article/71578/brazil-s-nuclear-submarine-project-faces-postponement


Indian T-90 has Indian Armor , Gun and electronics .............we need tank Engine Technology but France Tank Lecrec is using Wärtsilä Engines ( Finland ).
Also lecrec is extremely costly .

Indians Bought dolphin Scorpène Class submarine ? Pakistan is using Agosta how we can buy the same submarine ??
PROSUB was Brasil's failed attempt at designing one. We come in and fix it, on schedule as usual in less than half the time Russian assistance got Arihant online.

Indian armour can go on Leclerc, the packages are modular. You could use Indian steel as well, it is higher quality than used in our own tanks. Wartsila bought the French company SACM that makes the engines. A typical holding company doesn't make it Finnish. They have signed Security Agreements that the only thing they see are the financials.
Leclerc is costly, you pay for the best.

Pakistan bought a lower class of the Agosta. There are higher classified variants like that used by France.
 

TPFscopes

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Instead of Gorshkov, India could have opted for a refit of the Foch, including catapults. That would be much more capable than a ski-jump. Instead of T-90 you could have had Leclerc, it is under the transport weight and several times the tank that debacle has been. Instead of Kilo it could have been Agosta. MiG-29 could have been more M2000s, instead of MKI it could have been way more Rafale. Not only does France have an export to match Russia, it outclasses it in most cases, especially in support, ToT and timelines.
We may understand your problem.
You want France to be the top most partner of Indian defence forces. I don't like align with a single nation.

Moreover, at present , mig-29k is the most capable and cheapest option available for STOBAR naval operations.
 

gadeshi

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FOCH was way to small and rust bucket with practically no life left. Rafales were not even into production when we were operating at least 60 Sukhois and were simply not up to the SU30mki technologically, it is only now with AESA and Spectra that technologically it has just surpassed it but with Super Sukhoi upgrade Rafales will be biting dust again. T-90s have proven their mettle in syria and are good enough for our threat scenario and comes at lower cost than Leclerc. Again Kilo class submarines are one of the most feared and deadliest submarines and are no pushovers. Between Mig 29s and Mirages yes Mirages are better but at double the cost........ all french weapons cost double or thrice the price.........
A voice of sanity at last! :)

I'll tell you some unpleasant thing, no offence:
Would you remember that Frenchies have refused to take Indian Rafale production lines quality assurance and it has graved MIA prospects of Rafale deal?
That's because QA system establishment will almost double the cost of JV investments without one thing to be done by the tech recipient.
Moreover this, all defence products made in India will be always at risk until you'll do one important thing.
All Russian defence products were at that risk prior 2006-2008 because of this - absence of all-aspect, all-level Military Acceptance Service.

All the products will be at quality risk until MOD will not create MAS.
MAS must control all the stages of defence product production, from raw materials through complectation spares to ready fly-off product acceptance to be sure it has best quality it can.
And of course it must be standardized at the technical laws level.

Soviet Union has it, and Soviet products were reliable and of high quality.
Yeltsin's Russia has ruined MAS system and suffered the circumstances severely.
Russians have revived and recreated all-aspect MAS at 2004 and re-matured it in 2008.
This and only this has allowed to see the exellent results in Syria and the other places.

MAS removes corruption (several hundreds of Russian leutenant and even Colonel Generals and defence enterprise top managers lost their jobs or went into prison being accused by MAS), it amplifies QA and quality control.

Create your own MAS, remove corruption and your own T-90S will be not less the quality as Russian ones.
 

Armand2REP

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FOCH was way to small and rust bucket with practically no life left. Rafales were not even into production when we were operating at least 60 Sukhois and were simply not up to the SU30mki technologically, it is only now with AESA and Spectra that technologically it has just surpassed it but with Super Sukhoi upgrade Rafales will be biting dust again. T-90s have proven their mettle in syria and are good enough for our threat scenario and comes at lower cost than Leclerc. Again Kilo class submarines are one of the most feared and deadliest submarines and are no pushovers. Between Mig 29s and Mirages yes Mirages are better but at double the cost........ all french weapons cost double or thrice the price.........
The Foch had a bigger hanger and flight deck than the Gorshkov, it isn't about tonnage. You are using a converted cruiser with tonnes of wasted space. As for life left, officials talked about refitting the Vikrant for another ten years and it is 20 years older than the Foch. It would have served 20 years and given India the CATOBAR experience it desperately needs. The Rafale was introduced a year before the MKI so it was available. The first Sukhois you got were not MKI but MK garbage. IAF knew they were trash so they sent them back and added tailored components to bring them up to Western standards not available from Russia. T-90s haven't proven anything, don't get me started about the biathlon much less the ammunition and exploding barrels. It comes at lower cost to Leclerc because it doesn't compare to Leclerc. It is better to have 1st tier systems than massive piles of burning junk like Saddam. Kilo submarine is deadliest submarine... to its crew. The hidden secret behind Russian weapons is, if you want to operate them as much as Western systems are run, you end up paying more and suffering downtime from weak Russian supply chains, political wrangling and corruption.
 

lcafanboy

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The Foch had a bigger hanger and flight deck than the Gorshkov, it isn't about tonnage. You are using a converted cruiser with tonnes of wasted space. As for life left, officials talked about refitting the Vikrant for another ten years and it is 20 years older than the Foch. It would have served 20 years and given India the CATOBAR experience it desperately needs. The Rafale was introduced a year before the MKI so it was available. The first Sukhois you got were not MKI but MK garbage. IAF knew they were trash so they sent them back and added tailored components to bring them up to Western standards not available from Russia. T-90s haven't proven anything, don't get me started about the biathlon much less the ammunition and exploding barrels. It comes at lower cost to Leclerc because it doesn't compare to Leclerc. It is better to have 1st tier systems than massive piles of burning junk like Saddam. Kilo submarine is deadliest submarine... to its crew. The hidden secret behind Russian weapons is, if you want to operate them as much as Western systems are run, you end up paying more and suffering downtime from weak Russian supply chains, political wrangling and corruption.
India operated CATOBAR with INS Vikrant and so is very much experienced in CATOBAR operations. Those 40 Sukhois were replaced free and yes SU 30mk were converted by HAL & DRDO with help from Israel and France to a beast SU 30MKIs but Rafales were no match to it and it still is no match in certain areas like the combat range and weapons load it carries (now don't Rafale can carry 9.5 tons as then it won't have as much combat range and if you add drop tanks which Sukhoi doesn't need to carry the weapons load is reduced to below sukhoi levels). T-90s are better than what are neighbors can field and for better tank we have ARJUN now which are a beast. For Kilo submarines these are the same which sunk US nuclear Submarine in a naval exercise. Check for how much IAF is flogging Sukhois IAF is flying them twice the recommended hours per year and in most extreme conditions. The supply is also related to orders being placed on time and in advance which IAF wasn't doing it is matter of warehousing and not supply...........
 

Armand2REP

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India operated CATOBAR with INS Vikrant and so is very much experienced in CATOBAR operations. Those 40 Sukhois were replaced free and yes SU 30mk were converted by HAL & DRDO with help from Israel and France to a beast SU 30MKIs but Rafales were no match to it and it still is no match in certain areas like the combat range and weapons load it carries (now don't Rafale can carry 9.5 tons as then it won't have as much combat range and if you add drop tanks which Sukhoi doesn't need to carry the weapons load is reduced to below sukhoi levels). T-90s are better than what are neighbors can field and for better tank we have ARJUN now which are a beast. For Kilo submarines these are the same which sunk US nuclear Submarine in a naval exercise. Check for how much IAF is flogging Sukhois IAF is flying them twice the recommended hours per year and in most extreme conditions. The supply is also related to orders being placed on time and in advance which IAF wasn't doing it is matter of warehousing and not supply...........
India hasn't operated CATOBAR since 1978. Any skills gained are long gone by now. You don't think Rafale is a match to it when it can shoot it well before it is detected. MKI doesn't even have RWR, you can't deploy counter-measures if you don't know it is coming. You really want to compare strike capabilities... really? It is only as good as the weapons it carries. MKI can fly a max of three missions per day, Rafale can do five. Arjun is certainly better than T-90, just shrink down the size/weight for transport purposes. Leclerc already meets the transport requirement. Did Kilos sink US submarines? Rafale shot down F-22s in DACTs, that is more real than naval simulations with crippled destroyers. I do know Kilos killed more of its crew than any enemy it faced. When signing a support contract that means the supplier provides all support required for specified number of years. It isn't buying a nut here and a turbine blade there. The reason your aircraft don't fly is because you either didn't sign a support contract, or Russia is failing to live up to the terms of the contract. It is the latter.
 

TPFscopes

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@Armand2REP @lcafanboy
this is not a french or russian fanclub thread. so, you guys have to stop this BS here and should move to a concerned thread.

GoI and Indian armed forces always do whatever is the need of time and within the budget. we don't pick anything just to make others happy. And most important, The present need of time is to manufacture each and everything in house and within the country.

Request you guys to stop spamming and stick with the thread.

Good Day...
 

FactsPlease

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We may understand your problem.
You want France to be the top most partner of Indian defence forces. I don't like align with a single nation.

Moreover, at present , mig-29k is the most capable and cheapest option available for STOBAR naval operations.
I hope you and others know you are arguing with someone who will make up things, especially when against Russia in defense area.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-combat-aircraft-hal.36/page-132#post-1312358
-- A big pity that as much as I like Rafale for RCAF, there is people who think a great nation needs "alternative fact" to prove the value of its product...
 

Vijyes

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I hope you and others know you are arguing with someone who will make up things, especially when against Russia in defense area.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-combat-aircraft-hal.36/page-132#post-1312358
-- A big pity that as much as I like Rafale for RCAF, there is people who think a great nation needs "alternative fact" to prove the value of its product...
Lets bring back this thread to Sukhoi FGFA than rant further about 'alternative facts'. If anyone thinks I hate Russia too for my opposition to FGFA, I actually dislike USA and UK for banning Modi. I don't have any hatred for Russia at all.

That being said, this thread appears to be meaningless as for over 3 years, there has been no progress at all on FGFA. So, all kind of garbage and unwanted speculations have come here. It is best if no discussion is done on this thread at all as long as new concrete information doesn't come
 

smestarz

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It is strange seeing Rafale boys ranting on Su-57 thread,,,
How about you going to Rafale thread and do this ranting there?
As far as Rafale its an overated plane thats excellent when against third world countries without credible air defence, When the Russians came to Syria, the Rafales simply stayed away from the Russians., And that was just Su-30 SM.. imagine where the french planes would be when Su-57 are in the sky,. just hiding in their hangars i Guess.

The Foch had a bigger hanger and flight deck than the Gorshkov, it isn't about tonnage. You are using a converted cruiser with tonnes of wasted space. As for life left, officials talked about refitting the Vikrant for another ten years and it is 20 years older than the Foch. It would have served 20 years and given India the CATOBAR experience it desperately needs. The Rafale was introduced a year before the MKI so it was available. The first Sukhois you got were not MKI but MK garbage. IAF knew they were trash so they sent them back and added tailored components to bring them up to Western standards not available from Russia. T-90s haven't proven anything, don't get me started about the biathlon much less the ammunition and exploding barrels. It comes at lower cost to Leclerc because it doesn't compare to Leclerc. It is better to have 1st tier systems than massive piles of burning junk like Saddam. Kilo submarine is deadliest submarine... to its crew. The hidden secret behind Russian weapons is, if you want to operate them as much as Western systems are run, you end up paying more and suffering downtime from weak Russian supply chains, political wrangling and corruption.
 

smestarz

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IAF is a professional air force, but sadly they are not led professionally. The top brass have been seriously involved in a way to fill their own pockets, and there is no bigger example than ACM Tyagi and NAK Browne
Su-30 MKI was there during their time as leaders, how exactly did they take care of the nations premier aircraft?
How about ACM Rahas contribution? NAK Browne and Raha did contribute to commenting counter to the efforts of MoD. They were trying to push for Rafale and thus making it difficult for MoD to negotiate price or terms.

The spare management during their time had issues and all they did was point hands at Russia that Russian planes are not good etc, Where ever Su-30 is used, it is feared and there are no spares issues. In fact India is the biggest user of Su-30 MKI and its surprising that the IAF chiefs never thought to give importance to handling spares and spare management? Just to give a point, IAF requires roughly Rs 3450 crore worth of spares for its Su-30 MKI fleet and IAF just provides for Rs 50 crore for spares that shows that the top brass of IAF has no clue of what actually is happening. And they dont have a vision what to do or how to marshall resources, they are more eager to just read aircraft brochures and then tell HAL to incorporate all those. I might suggest to sack the entire top brass and to promote the lower officers at least they would not be so involved in corruption.

We are one of the air force where even Mirage 2000 was grounded. It is wonderful for the French fanboys to comment the bad availability rate of Su-30 MKI which as we see is due to bad spare management, but when the Mirage 2000 is grounded, they start pointing fingers at IAF. hahaha hilarious

Earlier Su-30 MK was twin seat plane which was what IAF wanted, and IAF then tested these planes and suggested the avionics and improvements they wanted and this India specific plane is Su-30 MKI. Remember one thing here, the French did not help, we paid for the avionics. IF the French had refused, there were others of course. For example we use LITENING pods, we are are not ordering French pods, are we?

The big difference between Rafale and Su-30 MKI is the area of operations, France is a small country so Rafale does make the right cut with its range. Where as Russia is a big country and after the dissolution of USSR, it had had defence cuts, and also its Short range frontline planes were the first casualties like the MiG-21 etc, with the range of Su-27/30 a squadron of these can easily cover area of 3-4 squadrons for CAPs and thus smaller nos of planes can handle the job of 4-5 squadrons. Also since these are more advanced with longer range radar, better armed a squadron of Su-30 can easily handle the work load of 5 squadrons of MiG-21 in terms of range, and weapons,

IAF is using Su-30 MKI twice the recommended flight hours and this matter was pointed by CAG also,

India operated CATOBAR with INS Vikrant and so is very much experienced in CATOBAR operations. Those 40 Sukhois were replaced free and yes SU 30mk were converted by HAL & DRDO with help from Israel and France to a beast SU 30MKIs but Rafales were no match to it and it still is no match in certain areas like the combat range and weapons load it carries (now don't Rafale can carry 9.5 tons as then it won't have as much combat range and if you add drop tanks which Sukhoi doesn't need to carry the weapons load is reduced to below sukhoi levels). T-90s are better than what are neighbors can field and for better tank we have ARJUN now which are a beast. For Kilo submarines these are the same which sunk US nuclear Submarine in a naval exercise. Check for how much IAF is flogging Sukhois IAF is flying them twice the recommended hours per year and in most extreme conditions. The supply is also related to orders being placed on time and in advance which IAF wasn't doing it is matter of warehousing and not supply...........
 

smestarz

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I would correct you about Migs and Mirages here,
Mig-29 are way better than Mirage 2000, The biggest problem with MiG-29 was our air force. IAF limited MiG-29 purely as Air superiority plane, and this flaw became apparent during Kargil when Jaguar was found inept to hit targets in Kargil and the only other strike plane that IAF had was Mirage 2000, and it was accompanied by MiG-29 which ensured that PAF F-16 kept away.

After that incident, IAF started to get its act together and started treating MiG-29 as an MRCA a it was. And the proof is that now the MiG-29 also has Targeting pods.
IAF is not a fast learner and so there are lot of issues in IAF it is a professional airforce but lacks professional leadership.


Su-30 MKI vs Rafale, if we have to hit deep in China, that is very much possible with Su-30 MKI with its internal range and also warload, but for the same long distance, Rafale might be useless as its Wet pylons would have to be used for Fuel and thus reduces war load. And as you said with Super Sukhoi upgrade, Rafale might be just limited to facing the Pakistanis so that they dont get beaten by the Chinese jets.

T-90 is a very nice tank and it fits the indian requirements,. Leclerc was not even considered that tells a lot.


FOCH was way to small and rust bucket with practically no life left. Rafales were not even into production when we were operating at least 60 Sukhois and were simply not up to the SU30mki technologically, it is only now with AESA and Spectra that technologically it has just surpassed it but with Super Sukhoi upgrade Rafales will be biting dust again. T-90s have proven their mettle in syria and are good enough for our threat scenario and comes at lower cost than Leclerc. Again Kilo class submarines are one of the most feared and deadliest submarines and are no pushovers. Between Mig 29s and Mirages yes Mirages are better but at double the cost........ all french weapons cost double or thrice the price.........
 

airtel

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PROSUB was Brasil's failed attempt at designing one. We come in and fix it, on schedule as usual in less than half the time Russian assistance got Arihant online.
India and France were working on Tejas Project (including Kaveri Engine ) but after the Pokhran-2 tests& sanctions , France stopped their consultancy and this is why both Tejas & kaveri projects delayed .
but that did not happen with Russians .


officially Russians did not help us and no money was ever paid to Russia and we have all the Technologies & Rights on This submarine .

and I dont think Brazilian submarine project is " Fixed " .


Brazil's nuclear submarine project faces postponement
Jose Higuera, Santiago - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
20 June 2017
Under pressure from a combination of financial and political factors, the Brazilian government is considering an extended suspension of funding for its SN-BR nuclear-powered submarine programme, sources in Brasilia have told Jane's.

The SN-BR programme was launched in 1978 and since then USD4.3 billion has been spent on the project, with total investment currently planned to amount to USD9.5 billion by the time the first boat is due to enter service in 2029.

http://www.janes.com/article/71578/brazil-s-nuclear-submarine-project-faces-postponement
and DCNS is making this Brazilian Submarine , Your workers are doing all the Job so what is the benefit of Brazil ? They dont have trained workers or technical knowledge & they can not make another nuclear submarine without Your Help ..................but we can .








And I am sure they can not launch a Nuclear capable Ballistic Missile from This submarine .





This Brazilian submarine deal is more beneficial for France .
 
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IndianHawk

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Su-30 MKI vs Rafale, if we have to hit deep in China, that is very much possible with Su-30 MKI with its internal range and also warload, but for the same long distance, Rafale might be useless as its Wet pylons would have to be used for Fuel and thus reduces war load. And as you said with Super Sukhoi upgrade, Rafale might be just limited to facing the Pakistanis so that they dont get beaten by the Chinese jets.
Rafale will be used against china . Su30 mki will be used to achieve air superiority over tibet , south Western china.

Rafale with it's long range missiles will help su30 and Indian army to destroy radars and whatever advanced fighters china can throw up , few j20s or su35s.

Rafale is intended to deal with few advanced jets that china will have in near future before FGFA again established Indian edge over china .
 

Armand2REP

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India and France were working on Tejas Project (including Kaveri Engine ) but after the Pokhran-2 tests& sanctions , France stopped their consultancy and this is why both Tejas & kaveri projects delayed .
but that did not happen with Russians .


officially Russians did not help us and no money was ever paid to Russia and we have all the Technologies & Rights on This submarine .

and I dont think Brazilian submarine project is " Fixed " .
Safran had no contract for Kaveri until this year. France did not condemn Pokhran nor did it join in sanctions.

Your own link says "the Brazilian Navy said its overall Submarines Development Program (Programa de Desenvolvimento de Submarinos: PROSUB) was not suspended or facing delays."
 

Vinod DX9

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FGFA will it come at all? Su-57 itself isn't ready anyway. The platform which isn't ready itself, how can anyone make it better?
 

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