Sukhoi PAK FA

[arnabmit]

Criticism of FGFA project unfounded - Russian strategic analyst | Russia & India Report
February 1, 2014 Alexander Korablinov, RIR

The reports criticising the Indo-Russian project are aimed at diverting attention from the financial problems that the Indian Air Force will face if a contract to purchase Rafale jets is signed, according to Konstantin Makiyenko.

Cuts in India's defence spending and the cost escalations for buying and setting up licensed production of the French Rafale multirole fighters are the main reasons that certain Indian media outlets have waged campaign against the FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighting Aircraft) Russian-Indian project, Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies told the Red Star military newspaper.

Makiyenko believes that the criticism of the FGFA project in the Business Standard is unfounded and aims to divert attention from the financial problems that the Indian Air Force will face if a contract to purchase Rafale jets is signed. At issue is the purchase of 126 obsolete machines, he told Red Star.

The Russian strategic analyst noted that under the current economic conditions, the French fighters cannot be purchased without cutting spending on other programs. "Going ahead with this project threatens to consume the whole budget for modernizing the Indian Air Force and will leave the country without any fifth-generation technologies," Makiyenko said.

According to him, the accusation that 'Russians have been reluctant to share design information' is completely untrue. "Russia and India are working on the project together, and all information about it is available to Indian engineers and designers," Makiyenko said.

The FGFA project began following a Russian-Indian agreement on cooperation in the development and production of the perspective multirole fighter, signed on October 18, 2007.

The Indian fighter jet will be based on the Russian single-seat Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter, which now has four prototypes flying, but it will be designed to meet about 50 specific requirements by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Rafale price hike
India is expected to foot a much higher bill for the Rafale fighters. When French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation won the deal to supply its Rafale fighter jets, it quoted around $60 million per jet. According to a report on DNA, the cost has gone up to $120 million per jet. "The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion," the paper quoted an Indian Air Force official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee, as saying.

 

[p2prada]

Too much is being seen into the so called financial problems.

The only one who raised the issue beforehand is a guy who has an agenda against both Rafale and FGFA. Had the DCAS really said stuff about FGFA then there was only one person who reported it while the others kept quiet. Normally all news channels would have reported such a story.

 

[rajsking]

I believe there is no escaping the fact that India needs to move ahead with the project even if PAKFA turns out to be just another SU-30++. Considering the timelines, we are decades behind to develop even such platform. Even our AMCA plan is atleast 7-8 years behind the PAKFA project. And importance of such platform is all the more evident considering that China is already purchasing SU-35 and is developing a whole series of air superiority fighters.

What we need is good Govt-to-Govt negotiations. Let the govt sit on the negotiating table and ask for following two things:
1) Transfer of complete ToT - ( including each and every critical engine part) for the PAKFA from day one. i.e. even if r&D is happening in Russia, India based production line shoudl be given primacy over setting up the Russian production line.
2) Asking Russia to transfer MTA engine's ToT fully for India without any extra financial considerations from India. (i.e no license fees etc)

China used its fighter jet's engine in its transport aircraft program. We can do the reverse. Moreover the 140KN engine can even become the core around which we design 2-engine AMCA and 1-engine LCA MK3. This will also shave off years from the development of AMCA project, if we already have a working engine for the same. Even for Tejas, 140Kn engine is better than GE version. And considering the recent Us-India Stand-off, Russia will always remain more trusted defense partner.

But all this depends upon HAL's ability to overnight setup a production facility for PAKFA. Russia should not be allowed to use the excuse that HAL has not even begin establishing the facility and that giving primacy to HAL's production facility will result is considerable delay in PAKFA project.

After having taken for a ride, ( in terms of joint development of PAKFA), we should now negotiate, without loosing any further time, and try to maximize our return from whatever is remaining in the PAKFA project.

 

[gadeshi]

@rajsking, you want too much.

Soviet and then Russian developers and scientists has put their lives and a tremendous amounts of affort to develop all and every part of PAK FA.
They have developed their own unique scientific and engineering school for more than 100 years of Russian/Soviet aircraft building history.
And here is rajsking goes and demands to give it to Indians (or any one else) hot and ready and without extra money. Don't be rediculous.

Another one reason is secrecy. All the engine and radar technologies, as well as FCS algorythms and weapons technology is so crucial for Russian defence domination (over China and Europe and even over US in some fields), that they are not the subject for commerce at all. They are vital for strategical balance. Russians cannot be sure that Indians will keep it in the same secret as they do. Just imagine, what can happen, if Chinese will still them from India?

 

[gadeshi]

And a force climb from 8000m to 13000m:

 

[gadeshi]

And a pack of MAKS-2013 photos:
ВООРУЖЕНИЯ, ВОЕННАЯ ТЕХНИКА, ВОЕННО-ТЕХНИЧЕСКИЙ СБОРНИК, СОВРЕМЕННОЕ СОСТОЯНИЕ, ИСТОРИЯ РАЗВИТИЯ ОПК, БАСТИОН ВТС, НЕВСКИЙ БАСТИОН, ЖУРН

 

[Haman10]

can anyone please tell me the indian modifications on pak fa ?

what are the differences between T-50 PAK FA and FGFA if there is any?

i am so sorry that people found my post insulting

really dont know what happened

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not much, Design is same just the avionics is not ..

Its like what we done with SU-30MKI ..

 

[rvjpheonix]

can anyone please tell me the indian modifications on pak fa ?

what are the differences between T-50 PAK FA and FGFA if there is any?

i am so sorry that people found my post insulting

really dont know what happened

In short... Nobody knows. There was a report claiming better radar coverage, more composites etc. But seems highly unlikely. There will not be major structural changes. I guess the difference must be in mission computers, and some other avionics. But what we get from this programme is a hands on experience of testing an amazing fifth gen platform and a whole lot of new tech even if the russians deny some most sensitive areas.

 

[Haman10]

good luck in your programs

 

[rajsking]

@rajsking, you want too much.

Then please do let me know the difference between Joint development and license production.
If PAKFA is already developed, what is the need of asking for 6b USD from India.

The fact that India has been taken for a ride is evident and this experience can hurt future collaborations. It is in interest of Russia to sweeten the deal. Do let me know where my demands are wrong.
1) It has already been stated that the AC will be produced both in India and Russia. If, by giving primacy in setting off Indian faciilty helps in salvaging the deal whats wrong in it. What is there for Russia to loose.
2) My understanding of Joint development is that it is much greater than ToT. It even involves holding joint patents for the technologies developed in the program. All I am asking is complete ToT for the project in question. It can, at no level, be compared to the Joint development - unless Russians are using this word for fool Indians.


Lets take a step back - The main difference between indigenous production and outright buying is that - for indigenous production, you have flexibility to tailor made a product according to your own requirement. While, the limitation of outright buying is that you choose from the available product that is closest to your requirement and then try to modify it to meet your requirement.
Joint Development - means that variants of product developed will meet the requirement of individual parties. Risks associated with any projects like delay, not meeting the laid out specifications befalls on both the parties.
If PAKFA was indeed a Joint development then, Russia should not have moved ahead with designing the aircraft without freezing of the Indian specifications. If the project is delayed - let it be. Project Delay is one of the inherent risk associated with joint development which Russians should have keep in mind while proposing for joint development of AC. The fact that Russians moved ahead with the designing of AC and are now asking Indians to accept their version of PAKFA means that in the name of JD - Russians are just interested in taking money from India and in return allow it to license produce the AC.

Russians are developing this AC for the past 7-8 years. Do let me know that if India pay for half of the development cost - does it mean that Russia will allow that all the patents produced in these years will be co-owned by India. If not, then it should just end the farce of JD.
But the fact is Russian need money, but not for PAKFA. PAKFA is already developed - so the money that India will give will be used elsewhere. And the bogey of JD is use to extract this money without giving much in return.

It takes about 3b USD to develop an engine. And if we pay this sum - we own the engine so developed completely - i.e. including all the patents developed in its development including rights to further license it. We are paying 6b USD and what we are asking - not even joint ownership - not even taking over the patents - just indigenous capability to develop the engine inhouse.
Let me remind you that the engines in question are those that will power the jointly developed AC - MTA and PAKFA. Therefore, going by the strict definition of JD they should already be the items whose ToT + patents + ownership should be with India too, I am just explicitly stating that ToT of engines should be with India. This is very small part of the total deal.

So,
1) To maintain even semblence of "JD" of a product designed by Russians for the Russians, the least they can do is set up its first production facility in India
2) Unless Russians agree to transfer ownership of patents developed by it over these 7-8 years, there is no point for India paying 6b USD. If Russian need this money, they should at least share ToT of engines involved in the JD. Russians should be happy that the price at which India can own/develop these engines, India is just getting production rights for the same.

I believe that Indian Babus and IAF personnel should be knowing this reality as stated above. And if they cannot take steps to address Indian concerns while salvaging the deal will mean that there are other interests which are preventing them for doing so.

 

[p2prada]

Another one reason is secrecy. All the engine and radar technologies, as well as FCS algorythms and weapons technology is so crucial for Russian defence domination (over China and Europe and even over US in some fields), that they are not the subject for commerce at all. They are vital for strategical balance.

The Russians will transfer everything. Source codes, materials to build the engine from scratch, even radar, basically everything.

It doesn't matter how long you have taken to design this stuff, you will transfer it because such agreements will say so. The idea is to completely build the aircraft from scratch in two countries, that's the idea behind a JV of this scale. It is no different for Brahmos and it is no different for IL-214 either.

As for money, Russia and India will be sharing the same amount. The main contention here is Sukhoi is saying that if IAF wants extra, that cost cannot be transferred to Russia. But IAF is saying costs should be borne equally, regardless of what is required.

Russians cannot be sure that Indians will keep it in the same secret as they do. Just imagine, what can happen, if Chinese will still them from India?

The basic idea behind this massive deal is that Russia is confident that India will keep Russia's secrets safe. It is more important for India to keep secrets safe from China anyway. So, there is greater fear that Russia can give away secrets to China.

Sukhoi does not want to export PAKFA but develop FGFA for export. But IAF does not want FGFA to be exported either. So, we will need to wait and see what kind of agreement will be reached regarding this.

Gadeshi, we can't have a 50-50 JV with 50-50 IPR sharing if one party does not have exclusive access to the entire spectrum of technology that is part of the aircraft. According to our officials, when the deal was signed in 2010, all source codes are to be shared in equal. You also forget that FGFA will have entirely different source codes compared to PAKFA, so PAKFA's source codes will remain with Russia. But I suppose since the engine and airframe are the same, the source codes will also be the same. I am not sure if those will be re-written either, but electronics will be developed with new source codes again with new radar and new EW system. Our officials also said that all foreground IP will be shared in a 50-50 format. All background IP will remain with the R&D institutes of whoever developed it.

 

[Eastman]

can anyone please tell me the indian modifications on pak fa ?

what are the differences between T-50 PAK FA and FGFA if there is any?

i am so sorry that people found my post insulting

really dont know what happened

I dont think India would like to call her participation as Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii project, another option can be a "महत्वपूर्ण हवाई जहाज परियोजना" or MHJP so I think its choosen to be called as FGFA

 

[p2prada]

can anyone please tell me the indian modifications on pak fa ?

what are the differences between T-50 PAK FA and FGFA if there is any?

i am so sorry that people found my post insulting

really dont know what happened

New radar with 360 deg capability. This is the only thing that we know for sure. There will be other major changes as well since we have to develop the source codes again. Which means new bus system, new computers etc.

We will remove metal parts on PAKFA and replace them with composites on FGFA.

Airframe and engine will be the same.

 

[Srinivas_K]

can anyone please tell me the indian modifications on pak fa ?

what are the differences between T-50 PAK FA and FGFA if there is any?

i am so sorry that people found my post insulting

really dont know what happened

FGFA is a two seater a pilot and a navigator.

FGFA do have some customization's in composites where Indians are very good.

Some French technologies like Avionics, EW suite etc...etc.... will also be integrated into that. India also will have access to Dassault tech. if MMRCA deal is done.

 

[gadeshi]

01-2:

And forced supersonic maneuver (by 01-2 as well):

 

[gadeshi]

01-5:

Who will weep about poor body finish now?

 

[arnabmit]

BrahMos wants to make missile adaptable for FGFA - Sivathanu Pillai | Russia & India Report

 

[Austin]

Russia fulfills obligations under 5th gentn fighter aircraft programme with India

NEW DELHI, February 07, 2:36 /ITAR-TASS/. Russia fulfills all of its obligations under the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme with India, Russian Ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin said at the Defexpo-2014 security systems exhibition on Thursday, February 6.

"We pay no attention to negative publications that appear from time to time and claim that Russia does not fulfill its obligations under the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme. Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation under this programme develops as scheduled, and we have not received any official complaints from the Indian side", he said.

Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, Deputy Director of the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told ITAR-TASS at the exhibition that all such publications had been written to order.

Commenting on one such article in the Indian newspaper Business Standard, Dzirkaln said it was not true. "There is some speculation regarding the development of the Russian-Indian fifth generation fighter aircraft programme, but it's not surprising because the Indian Air Force, as the customer, would like to get the 'hardware', while budget funding has been disbursed for research and development," he said.

"We have no official complaints from India with regard to the fifth generation fighter aircraft. All negotiations take place under the agreements reached earlier," Dzirkaln said.

The newspaper said the Indian Air Force (IAF) had "alleged the Russians would be unable to meet their promises about its performance." On December 24, 2013, in a meeting in New Delhi chaired by Gokul Chandra Pati, the secretary of defence production, top IAF officials argued the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) had "shortfalls"¦ in terms of performance and other technical features."

Business Standard reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying 6 billion U.S. dollars to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

Top Defence Ministry sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft, the newspaper said.

Fifth-generation fighters are qualitatively superior to current "Generation 4.5" fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI. They are designed for stealth, which makes these near-invisible to radar; they "supercruise", that is, fly at supersonic speed without lighting engine afterburners (which some current fighters like the Rafale also do); and they have futuristic avionics and missiles, Business Standard said.

"The Defence Ministry and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) have countered the IAF's objections to the FGFA. Russian officials have clarified that the current prototype's engine, the AL-41F1, is a temporary solution to let the flight-test programme continue. A new engine being developed in Russia will eventually power both the FGFA and PAK-FA," the newspaper said.

It stressed that "Russia has gone ahead with developing a fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi Design Bureau has designed and done 300 test-flights of the T-50, the stealth fighter Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plan to refine into the FGFA in about eight years. The Russian Air Force, which has less ambitious specifications than the IAF, plans to induct into service its own version of the T-50, the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) by 2017-2018."

Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) estimates the Russian-Indian market for fifth generation fighter aircraft at 200 planes and the global market at 400 planes.

The initial version of the fifth generation fighter aircraft being created jointly by India and Russia will be ready for flight testing in 2014, the Times of India said earlier, quoting the Chief of the Air Staff and Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne as saying.

"The two sides are close to signing a key contract expected to be worth over 11 billion U.S. dollars for research and development phase of the project in the near future," the newspaper said.

"The first prototype of the FGFA is scheduled to arrive in India by 2014 after which it will undergo extensive trials at the Ojhar air base (Maharashtra)...we are hopeful that the aircraft would be ready for induction by 2022," Browne told PTI.

The IAF Chief was in Russia in August 2012 to review the progress made in the programme and the prototypes of the aircraft developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau at Zhukovsky there, the newspaper said.

Browne reviewed the performance of the fifth generation fighter aircraft, called Sukhoi T-50.

"Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to us. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. So, India will have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019. HAL will subsequently begin manufacturing the fighters," the newspaper's source said.

Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) First Deputy Director Alexander Fomin said that India and Russia would need at least 6-10 years to build a fifth generation fighter aircraft."It takes some time to create a plane. The manufacture of such a sophisticated piece of equipment is a science-consuming process that requires big investments. At least six to ten years will pass before we build a sample of the fifth generation fighter plane and being its serial production," Fomin said.

In the future, Russia and India plan to sell these planes not only on the national markets, but also in third countries. "We will export it in cooperation with Indian partners," the official added.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation will work on the new fighter plane.

According to Indian media reports, the two parties will invest 8-10 billion U.S. dollars in the project. Experts believe that the new plane will exceed Western analogues by the cost-efficiency criterion and will not only enhance the defence capabilities of the Russian and Indian navies, but will also take a worthy place on the world market.

World experience shows that it takes about 3-4 years to test new planes before their mass production can begin. Russia's new plane may as well fit into this schedule, especially since its maiden flight proved its reliability in different regimes.

Fifth generation planes are currently used only by the United States: F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning. However the Russian plane, tentatively called T-50, surpasses the American Raptor.

 

[gadeshi]