Sukhoi PAK FA

[gadeshi]

 

[gadeshi]

 

[gadeshi]

 

[gadeshi]

 

[gadeshi]

 

[Singh]

The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter ​

Russia's new T-50 stealth fighter is fast, maneuverable, heavily-armed and hard to detect on radar. In theory.

But according to Indian air force officials, in practice the Sukhoi-made stealth jet is also too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines.

The Indians' complaints illustrate the yawning gulf between stealth warplane design and the actual production of radar-evading jets. In other words, it's one thing to sketch an advanced warplane on paper. It's quite another to build one and get it to work.

All new aerospace development is difficult and many planes get poor reviews early in testing. But the gripes coming out of New Delhi are particularly worrisome for the Russians.

Sukhoi is working on two variants of the T-50—one for Russian use and another for the Indians. The Indian air force has ambitions to purchase 144 of the stealth jets, and the money from this sale underpins the entire T-50 development effort. New Delhi is also kicking in $6 billion for design work.

Without the Indians' cash, there wouldn't be a T-50. And Russia would have basically no hope of acquiring a stealth jet to counter the Americans' F-22s and F-35s and Chinese J-20s and J-31s.


A T-50 suffers an engine flame-out during a 2011 air show. Wikipedia photo
The Russian version of the T-50 is reportedly simpler than the Indian version, which includes Indian avionics and a wider range of compatible weapons. Five Russian T-50 prototypes are flying. The Indian model still exists only on paper.

But that hasn't stopped the Indian air force from voicing its unhappiness with the T-50. According to transcripts of December and January meetings obtained by Business Standard, air force and defense ministry officials listed at least four "shortfalls "¦ in terms of performance and other technical features":

The AL-41F engines currently fitted to the T-50 are unreliable. The radar is inadequate. The airframe is poorly built, with serious implications for the jet's stealth profile. And in light of these defects, $6 billion is too much to pay up front.

According to Business Standard, Russian officials countered, saying the AL-41F engines are a temporary fit until brand-new and more powerful motors can be developed. The radar, too, is temporary—pending new sensors being developed specifically for the Indian version of the warplane.

But the allegations of sloppy construction appear to be particularly serious. Besides posing an accident risk, low-quality construction can result in gaps and mismatched angles that elevate a plane's radar signature.

Press reports in 2013 indicated that Sukhoi was having problems with quality control in the T-50 effort. At least one of the prototypes needed patches on its wings to keep from falling apart during high-stress maneuvers.

All the same, Business Standard speculates that the Indian complaints could be somewhat politically motivated, as New Delhi is also planning to buy 126 new Rafale fighters from France for an eye-watering total price of $18 billion. Scrapping the T-50 could help India pay for the French jets.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/d89b9ce721de

 

[ersakthivel]

The fit and finish has miles to go before it even reaches the level of any modern 4.5th gen fighter. With so much strengthening strips jutting out in all directions it is hardly stealth friendly in its fuselage underside. Even tejas LSP-7,8 has a way better finish than this.

Whatever be the political motivation behind IAF accusations, this kind of finish looks like an world war-II era tech.

Why are russians doing it like this? All metal, no composite gaping spaces rough edges,

Against ever increasing sensitivity of ASEA radars of the future how can it's hold it's stealth tag?


the main reason for all this is trying to improve the already existing SU-30 MK platform into stealth version, instead of going for a stealth compliant all new fifth gen designs. if this was done earlier most of the clumsy edges won't be there.

And also they could have added better stealth compliant S shaped intake .
This was I posted months ago. And now everything is coming out in the open.

 

[ersakthivel]

Pak-fa Will fall flat if IAF pulls out : Defence Analyst | idrw.org

 

[gadeshi]

@ersakthivel, just compare YF-22 and (especially) X-35 finish to early T-50 PROTOTYPES.
Why to polish a skin for early prototypes, which are not intended for RCS tests or production, but just for aerodynamic and strength tests???

If India will pull out the stack from FGFA project, Russians will just successfully complete the project and start poduction (as PAK FA is almost already done). Russians will have unique capable 5+G plane, but Indians will remain without any TOT, without 5G fighter and will overpay for 4+ Rafales.
Just that.

 

[rvjpheonix]

@ersakthivel, just compare YF-22 and (especially) X-35 finish to early T-50 PROTOTYPES.
Why to polish a skin for early prototypes, which are not intended for RCS tests or production, but just for aerodynamic and strength tests???

If India will pull out the stack from FGFA project, Russians will just successfully complete the project and start poduction (as PAK FA is almost already done). Russians will have unique capable 5+G plane, but Indians will remain without any TOT, without 5G fighter and will overpay for 4+ Rafales.
Just that.

Agree with your first part. Cancelling of the FGFA however will not mean we wont have a fifth gen plane. It will only mean the importance of AMCA will go up as a strategic project and we will commit more funds and resources to it.

 

[sayareakd]

IMHO, we are screwed from all sides (from enemies to friends)
On the one hand both our enemies will have 5G fighter (it may or may not have good quality fighter, but we can say 5g) on the other hand both our friends (Russians and French) are going to screw us with price if not product. Russians are already doing it mere development partner for 15 percent work (ofcourse we cant be more then that as we lack tech base to make 5G fighter and less say better it is for engine) plus in future Russis will do day light robbery when it comes to price rise for the FGFA. Same goes for Rafale, with Reliance jumping on to the defence without any experience what so ever and french saying HAL is not up to mark. Plus now screwing big time on price for Rafale, not to forget TOT (crew driver tech).

In this circumstance when we need to have fighter to take on two front war, plus will be up against 5G in future 5-10 years down the line. What options we have for future. Other option is AMCA but i dont think it is on table for next -10 years, therefore it is out of question.

 

[arnabmit]

The way I see it:

Rafale is a scam with huge kickbacks. MMRCA was launched when India was doing 9% GDP growth, now it 4% and rupee slumping, it has become out of reach for us. The logical thing to do would be to scrap MMRCA and go for MiG-35 with full ToT.

Demonization of FGFA by IAF further suggests Scam in Rafale deal. All the points raised by IAF are for PAK-FA prototypes, not even for the PAK-FA final product or FGFA prototype. Indian work share is 15% of PAK-FA. It will be 50% of FGFA. We need to understand this difference.

Moreover, it would be ok if IJT is scrapped and Yak-130 bought instead. It is a cheap, robust and futuristic platform. If we expect HAL and ADA to take up all the projects simultaneously, there is no way they will succeed and deliver in time. HAL and ADA should concentrate on Tejas Mk1, Mk2, LCH, LOH, IMRH, MTA, AMCA & FGFA, apart from assembling foreign platforms. No need to dedicate assets and resources on platforms which are available for cheap elsewhere.

Make what is not available.
Buy what is available cheaply so that readiness is not compromised.
Simultaneously build capability to build home grown systems (Eg: Buy Pilatus, develop HTT-40 for replacement of Pilatus in future)

 

[chase]

why can't indian moron government understand that without privatization india will have to depend on foreign private firms . These idiots are ok to buy from videshi companies but are anorexic to buy from indian private companies. STUPID INDIAN MENTALITY!

 

[gadeshi]

why can't indian moron government understand that without privatization india will have to depend on foreign private firms . These idiots are ok to buy from videshi companies but are anorexic to buy from indian private companies. STUPID INDIAN MENTALITY!

Look, friend, this position is very dangerous.
We, Soviet people, have passed througout this insanity and gain only the disaster and destruction of high-tech industry. You should read more serious economic books rather than watch a TV to understand this.

All the crucial strategic enterprises must be in the government hands with a private investments into them.
Russians have understood this and created UAC, UEC and KRET - a huge powerfull holdings and concerns capable of concurent fight and resources concentration. That's wise.

 

[gadeshi]

@2arnambit:
HAL and ADA can build Yak-130 rather to buy them. And gain a complete TOT.
This way you'll learn how to make a completely adjustable imitation software, which allows Yak-130 to imitate Su-27/30/35, PAK FA, F-16, Mirage-2000 and Rafale flight behaviour by just switching the flight program grip

 

[Shirman]

All i can say is good news for India would be anti-stealth countermeasures would come out soon than expected (i have earmarked @p2prada's timeline that anti-stealth countermeasures won't come before 2030 in the other thread) well with people i had personal chat say best maturity period would be 2017..they told me that Dual Band Radars with the radar's sensor processing tech available now is more than enough to actually get materialized by then something which way back in 2012 was next to impossible i remember Singha's post in radar specs and tec thread in BR saying there was no tech available (back then) fusion of long wave multi band radar.........Mig-35, Tejas Mk.2 would be safer bet than eurofighter and super hornet.......plus invest more in multi layer both domestic and international made IADS.......By circa 2022-25 weaponisation on anti-stealth theory based tech such as Quantum imaging would take shape and come on the arena.....
also I wanted to desperately ask @Austin what is the base unit price of Nebo-m export variant.......by almaz antey concern......

 

[p2prada]

All i can say is good news for India would be anti-stealth countermeasures would come out soon than expected (i have earmarked @p2prada's timeline that anti-stealth countermeasures won't come before 2030 in the other thread) well with people i had personal chat say best maturity period would be 2017..they told me that Dual Band Radars with the radar's sensor processing tech available now is more than enough to actually get materialized by then something which way back in 2012 was next to impossible i remember Singha's post in radar specs and tec thread in BR saying there was no tech available (back then) fusion of long wave multi band radar.........Mig-35, Tejas Mk.2 would be safer bet than eurofighter and super hornet.......plus invest more in multi layer both domestic and international made IADS.......By circa 2022-25 weaponisation on anti-stealth theory based tech such as Quantum imaging would take shape and come on the arena.....
also I wanted to desperately ask @Austin what is the base unit price of Nebo-m export variant.......by almaz antey concern......

For best maturity period to come at 2017, system should have been employed 5 years ago.

People only talk of how future technologies will bridge the gap between current stealth and detection. But at the same time current stealth technology can be enhanced with active capabilities to enhance stealth even more.

Beyond that you need modern missiles with modern seekers to fight these stealth fighters and the earliest cousins of such missiles will be made only in 2017 at the earliest. Much more robust systems will take a decade longer after that. You can fuse what you want to both detect and track the fighter. But if you can't engage it, then it becomes pointless. More importantly, you want such detection techniques on other fighter aircraft, and not on the ground.

If current gen stealth becomes useless, then LCA Mk2, Mig-35, Rafale, EF etc will all be hopelessly outdated technologies. The same anti-stealth techniques can be used to defeat any counter measures the 4th gen fighters can throw.

Nebo-M isn't anti-stealth technology. Its base principles have existed for decades longer than stealth.

Long wavelengths only allow "adequate" situational awareness. Not enough to engage a fighter jet. This applies to any long wavelength techniques even against 4th gen and lower fighters. Fighters are far too agile and fast for a long wavelength to generate accurate readings for fire control. That's why 5th gen aircraft are more interested in defeating fire control radars which primarily use X band. If you can't shoot down what you can detect, then stealth works.

The priority for a stealth fighter is to decrease detection time and nullify any capability in attacking it. That's stealth.

 

[Shirman]

For best maturity period to come at 2017, system should have been employed 5 years ago.

Who knows! what if the system is already in secret and the developer offers it on international market intentionally to cut the gap between its effectiveness and the counter systems development cycle............

People only talk of how future technologies will bridge the gap between current stealth and detection. But at the same time current stealth technology can be enhanced with active capabilities to enhance stealth even more.

Like ?????? Can you give me one example apart from RAM skins and coatings ok....how can you make an f-35 further stealthy ?????i understand F-22 has undergone some super secret upgrade which we will never now and final variant /production of Pakfa still has ample of scope for RCS reduction after its Rcs test.........

Beyond that you need modern missiles with modern seekers to fight these stealth fighters and the earliest cousins of such missiles will be made only in 2017 at the earliest. Much more robust systems will take a decade longer after that. You can fuse what you want to both detect and track the fighter. But if you can't engage it, then it becomes pointless. More importantly, you want such detection techniques on other fighter aircraft, and not on the ground.

If thats so than whole point of anti stealth ground based IADS system is meaningless....why should a country develop it / buy it when she knows her enemy has steath aircraft in its air force inventory

If current gen stealth becomes useless, then LCA Mk2, Mig-35, Rafale, EF etc will all be hopelessly outdated technologies. The same anti-stealth techniques can be used to defeat any counter measures the 4th gen fighters can throw.

I said this same words to the developer....the reply was the real deal is how to counter stealth a/c by a 4th-4.5 gen a/c.....whats the main difference between an f-35 and mig-35 its conventional stealth offcourse the former offers to the customer............

Nebo-M isn't anti-stealth technology. Its base principles have existed for decades longer than stealth.

but we can't avoid its situational awareness in protecting the key strategic areas can't we, can you please explain us the use of it and why it primary exist....!!!!!!!!!!

Long wavelengths only allow "adequate" situational awareness. Not enough to engage a fighter jet. This applies to any long wavelength techniques even against 4th gen and lower fighters. Fighters are far too agile and fast for a long wavelength to generate accurate readings for fire control. That's why 5th gen aircraft are more interested in defeating fire control radars which primarily use X band. If you can't shoot down what you can detect, then stealth works.

Completely agree on this part.......what if the radar uses the combi of 2 wavelengths sensor fuse it give an over all picture will it help more than the conventional active radars on the market..........Raytheon has by the way produced a DBR and just found out from Jo's post on forum key pub that Russia plans to field another....my "developer" here happens to be an Israeli......lol....

The priority for a stealth fighter is to decrease detection time and nullify any capability in attacking it. That's stealth.

Then the priority for a counter stealth tech would be.........quite opposite!!!!!!

 

[Austin]

@Shirman , I have no idea on Nebo-M cost as the Russian have not disclosed it officially.

In any case we need such Systems and develop anti-Stealth capability on SAM and Radar front

 

[ersakthivel]

IMHO, we are screwed from all sides (from enemies to friends)
On the one hand both our enemies will have 5G fighter (it may or may not have good quality fighter, but we can say 5g) on the other hand both our friends (Russians and French) are going to screw us with price if not product. Russians are already doing it mere development partner for 15 percent work (ofcourse we cant be more then that as we lack tech base to make 5G fighter and less say better it is for engine) plus in future Russis will do day light robbery when it comes to price rise for the FGFA. Same goes for Rafale, with Reliance jumping on to the defence without any experience what so ever and french saying HAL is not up to mark. Plus now screwing big time on price for Rafale, not to forget TOT (crew driver tech).

In this circumstance when we need to have fighter to take on two front war, plus will be up against 5G in future 5-10 years down the line. What options we have for future. Other option is AMCA but i dont think it is on table for next -10 years, therefore it is out of question.

I agree hundred percent on each and every point you raised,

RAFALE is totally not needed now, but IAF hell bent on committing a huge amount of money on it, while Tejas mk-2 and super sukhois can easily do the job at a third of the MMRCA deal cost,

In the case of FGFA , without first laying down the time frame and workshare details GOI is going to put all levers of control like, work share, cost and specs in the russian hands and no IAF is crying foul.

The reason IAF is crying foul is because china will deploy a large no of J-20 and sell a large no of j-31to PAK at a very cost.

And IAF is looking at the prospect of getting a few in number{because russians are going to rip it off on cost front, citing the stupidly high price IAF is willing to pay for RAFALE which is way below FGFA}, worst in stealth(especially J-31 , which does not have canards ) platform than even what PAF is going to get!!!.

The reason Russians are not giving us a fifty percent workshare is we will know the real cost by doing it. So they can't overcharge us later!!

The IAF could easily have given the final specs of AMCA five or six year before and asked GOI to kick start the development of AMCA six or seven years before.

ADA could have started with GE engine in prototype stage like russians are doing with low powered engine for PAKFA and once K-9 or K-10 gets flight certification then they could have replaced the GE engine like the test flight program of RAFALE .

reason IAF did not do that and kept sitting on the ASR and revising it three times from 2002 to 2013 is another mystery that can not be resolved in the smoke and mirror game called Indian defence procurement.