Sukhoi PAK FA

[VatsaOfBhrigus]

I think those two fighters come from very different philosophies,

SUKHOIs are supposed to be the BEST IN MANEUVERABILITY . That was their primary design goal, pak fa ads some degree of stealth to it.

F22s and in general american stealth system is more about being hidden and attacking, and getting a overall picture using information grid. I think more than stealth the way they can share the information through satellite uplinks across fleets is more dangerous.

 

[VatsaOfBhrigus]

A couple of point on APA studies of RAKFA posted by Dr.Somnath,


I do hope the above two points are rectified with stealth compliant shaping in indian FGFA.otherwise pakfa will remain just a sukhoi adapted to stealth 5th gen shaping with internal bomb bay and not a new design,which is a not a true 5th gen approach by the russians.

Even the chinese have come up with better underbelly fuselage shapings and serpentine air intake in j-20.

I wonder why did the IAF keep quiet about it?we are sinking close to 20 billions in this fighter, surely they could have asked russians earlier.

Sure SUKHOI could have implemented serpentine air intake in place of radar blockers with ram coating for a small portion of the visible compressor blades. And they could have reduced the clustering edges in underbelly design, which is below par in 5th gen design.

.Sure they could easily have addressed the above two points 9 and 10 and easily put serpentine intake , and smooth underbelly fuselage design like J-20,if they wished.But they didn't do it. STRANGE.

Wasn't it some indian dude who sold those designs from lockheed to china --> which then came up with the jp fighter ?

 

[Tolaha]

Wasn't it some indian dude who sold those designs from lockheed to china --> which then came up with the jp fighter ?

You must be referring to Noshir Gowadia. The leaked information was related to stealth technology in B-2 bomber.

 

[p2prada]

I do hope the above two points are rectified with stealth compliant shaping in indian FGFA.otherwise pakfa will remain just a sukhoi adapted to stealth 5th gen shaping with internal bomb bay and not a new design,which is a not a true 5th gen approach by the russians.

Sure SUKHOI could have implemented serpentine air intake in place of radar blockers with ram coating for a small portion of the visible compressor blades. And they could have reduced the clustering edges in underbelly design, which is below par in 5th gen design.

bs


.............................

 

[ersakthivel]

bs


.............................

In the LCA tejas thread,You are doing exactly the same thing the cow in the picture is doing.
Many heartfelt thanks for acknowledging it truthfully, and keep up the standard.

I know this is the level of your debating skill, as you are incapable of putting a decent debating point, and when cornered bluff like kinder garden physics, high school physics, college physics,and university physics as if you have submitted a few award winning thesis on aerodynamic.

I would be intersted in knowing what is the physics in HOLLY HELL from where you are posting

 

[p2prada]

Testing of the new engine for the PAK FA in 2014 | idrw.org

30% lesser weight than the 117 would mean the engine is in the 1000Kg class. For a 17.5 ton thrust the engine would deliver a T/W of 17.5:1. :shocked:

 

[ersakthivel]

Testing of the new engine for the PAK FA in 2014 | idrw.org

Scientific production association "Saturn" has began development of a new engine for bench testing in PAk-Fa aircraft . has informed by Yevgeny Marchuk, General Designer, Director of the Scientific and Technical Center , part of the "Saturn". Engine will begin test in 2014.

We all will have to keep our fingers crossed untill 50 engines are produced and running as a senior member set the bar for much more well documented authentic reports about more than 17 EPE engine finished testing and one installed on hornet.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.a...&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
GE rates EPE engine's new components at a technology readiness level (TRL) of 6 (indicating successful prototype testing) and notes that it has developed 17 new or derivative engines successfully from the same TRL.

The new engine offers up to a 20 percent thrust boost. That would take the EPE up to 26,500 pounds of thrust, giving it the best thrust/weight ratio of any fighter engine -- almost 11:1. Alternatively (an option understood to be attracting interest at Saab) the EPE could be delivered with a 10 percent uprate and very generous temperature margins, extending its life and reducing fighter life-cycle costs.

The EPE "will not make much difference at an air show", says Boeing chief test pilot Ric Traven, but dramatically improves the fighter's performance at high speed and altitude, halving supersonic acceleration times. For the Gripen, the extra thrust would translate into further-improved supercruise (supersonic level flight without afterburner) capability.

At yesterday's roll-out of the 500th Super Hornet/Growler, Boeing program vice-president Kory Mathews confirmed that the F414 Enhanced Performance Engine would be the baseline for the company's offer to India.

Still the senior member calls the engine as a paper tiger. So this new engine is neither paper nor tiger .So as of now the PAKFA that is to be inducted in 2017 has no engine at all.

So in 4 years time will all the testing be done for PAKFA's new engine , and 50 engines running?

If it is possible then by the same analogy EPE is a concrete reality by the time TEJAS mk-2 enters service.

 

[p2prada]

More nonsense,

The engine was rejected by IAF too. It currently doesn't exist.

IAF Rejects last minute offer for powerful engine from one of MMRCA contenders
IAF won�t accept last minute offers from MMRCA contenders - Brahmand.com


This is from Carnegie endowment, Ashley Tellis's article.

These concerns arise in part because
of the way the F/A-18E/F's General
Electric F414 Enhanced Performance
Engine (EPE) was scored during the
competition. Boeing offered this engine,
which is in its final development stage,
as the standard power-plant for the production
version of the F/A-18E/F Super
Hornet because its 20 per cent greater
thrust and advanced design — involving
a two-stage integrated blade and
disk fan, an advanced six-stage highpressure
compressor, and a new highpressure
turbine design — mitigated
many of the flight envelope deficiencies
that had hampered the airplane when
equipped with the older F414-GE-400
engine. Thanks to the EPE, the F/A-18E/
F's climb performance, its transonic acceleration,
its maximum sustained G,
its maximum sustained turn rates, and
its top-end speed all improve considerably,
with beneficial impact on its performance
in both the air-to-air and the
air-to-ground regimes.
The IAF, however, held the engine's
development status as proof of its immaturity,
despite the fact that when it
enters service it will be a substantially
new engine with greatly improved performance
and decades of active life
ahead of it. That the IAF was unwilling
to accept the engineering test results
of the F414 EPE where the F/A-18E/F
was concerned, even as it accepted the
bench test results of the developmental
AESA radars proposed by the Europeans,
raises questions about whether the
service may have interpreted compliance
with some ASQRs a tad subjectively

 

[ersakthivel]

More nonsense,

The engine was rejected by IAF too. It currently doesn't exist.

IAF Rejects last minute offer for powerful engine from one of MMRCA contenders
IAF won�t accept last minute offers from MMRCA contenders - Brahmand.com


This is from Carnegie endowment, Ashley Tellis's article.

Then will IAF also reject PAKFA engine that is not yet developed at all.
The reason for epe-414 's rejection in MMRCA contest should be compared with the developed fully engine fitted RAFALE and TYPHOON on the ofer.

It should not be construed as rejection of GE's 414-EPE engine offer for the under development TEJAS mk-2 program ,as the 414-EPE has the same form fit as any 414 tejas is supposed to carry

The IAF didnot reject the engine on engine tech shortfalls, The MMRCA tender stipulates a a buy of finished product , not a buy of aircraft with under development engine.But TEJAS mk-2 is a evolving program and there is no international tender floated for the engine program of tejas mk-2 with a stipulation that the engine maker should offer a commercially running model for the tender,
As there is no engine tender for TEjas-mk-2 , the rejection of under development 414- EPE engined super hornet for the IAF's MMRCA tender has no relationship with GE-414-EPE's offer for tejas-mk-2.

Lets wait till the official anouncement.
I believe the EPE is not at a earlier developmental stage than PAKFA's engine now.

it is a very nice practice to quote credible sources like Carnegie endowment, Ashley Tellis's article.:thumb:

. Keep up the good work

In the same way don't ridicule the other guy who posts from RAND study and other credible sources.:thumb:

Because quoting authentic source will always enhance the credibility of the thread and raise the level of discussion , not personal abuses and glorified personal opinions

You can keep the discussion civil. Neither you nor me own Ge or SUKHOI. And the availability of 414 won't endanger india's national security either.

So why are you getting hot under the collar?

 

[p2prada]

There is a huge difference between facts and speculation. RAND study was speculation. Carnegie was fact.

RAND study was, BVR maybe inaccurate because it was in the past. Carnegie was, IAF rejected for sure. Huge difference.

Smart people can differentiate between the two.

PAKFA's engine is a sure shot development and we are paying for it. EPE was a "India pay for it and we will deliver engine" case. Huge difference. Now, it will be "Saab pay for it and we will deliver engine."

If nobody pays for it, then there will be no EPE. In our case, we are buying a 4th gen engine with ~100KN of thrust for LCA.

Don't bring LCA in one of DFIs few good threads and mess it up.

Nobody is hot under the collar without a reason. Look at the difference between my posts to you and my posts to others. Find the reason for why every guy you debated with called you an idiot or a kid. Huge difference between being realistic and being a fanboy.

 

[ersakthivel]

See even after a detailed explanation ,I don't expect this my source is better than your source type of argument.
The crux of my point is MMRCA rejection of hornet with 414 epe version has nothing to do with tejas mk-2 choice.
It is not an objective point of view to write that IAF rejected epe engine blandly.
IAf was not involved in the earlier deal between ADA and GE.
Both PAKFA and tejas mk-2 have another 5 years before entering service.
EPE ha 3 potential customers hornet,grippen NG,tejas mk-2,
So developmental cost will be shared in case of orders materializing,

At yesterday's roll-out of the 500th Super Hornet/Growler, Boeing program vice-president Kory Mathews confirmed that the F414 Enhanced Performance Engine would be the baseline for the company's offer to India.


this statement is all over the net. Me or you is not going to be the final authority on this.

I never said the deal is signed between ADA and GE for epe.

SO other than a few people who have no stomach for detailed discussion and only indulge in I know the best type posting I have no issues with any body in the forum.
And no need to certify one's own post is better than mine.if you don't know about RAND ,it is not my job to explain it either.
Rand study says that BVR kill zones are based on the assumption that enemy has no warning of BVR firinng and continues to head forward towards the aircraft.And ew tactics can spoof the mid range course correction of long range BVRS.
KOPP to says the same thing.
And I don't want any clarification from you for this either.

Neither do I believe in the YOU tube simulation you sent that says SU-35 can wipe out so much somewhere.

Lot of studies like these pervade the net.Their motive not to sing the glory of SU-35, but to push for more orders for F-35.
Every one knows about marketing tactics.

And I don't want any detailed discussions with you either on any of the above subjects and drag things down in this thread.
END OF DISCUSSION.

 

[Defcon 1]

For what its worth.

@Ersathikvel

Dude. calm down. It is not necessary to be proved right every time. You should see what you are doing along the way. You are completely destroying some of the best threads of this forum. In addition, one thing I have noticed about you is that you read the correct articles, but you always end up making the wrong conclusions. For example, your claim about 17 EPE engines is wrong. That article meant something else. Read carefully, and read every article twice. It is very difficult for anyone to debate with you when you post an article and make wrong assumption out of it. We cannot go on pointing out your mistakes. You can be a very good poster, but first of all you need to accept that it is ok to be wrong sometimes. I myself have been proved wrong numerous times on this forum. There is nothing embarrassing about it. We come here to learn and not for d*ck measuring. I do not expect you to reply to this post but just read it carefully and accept that you too could have been wrong.

Live long and prosper

 

[ersakthivel]

For what its worth.

@Ersathikvel

Dude. calm down. It is not necessary to be proved right every time. You should see what you are doing along the way. You are completely destroying some of the best threads of this forum. In addition, one thing I have noticed about you is that you read the correct articles, but you always end up making the wrong conclusions. For example, your claim about 17 EPE engines is wrong. That article meant something else. Read carefully, and read every article twice. It is very difficult for anyone to debate with you when you post an article and make wrong assumption out of it. We cannot go on pointing out your mistakes. You can be a very good poster, but first of all you need to accept that it is ok to be wrong sometimes. I myself have been proved wrong numerous times on this forum. There is nothing embarrassing about it. We come here to learn and not for d*ck measuring. I do not expect you to reply to this post but just read it carefully and accept that you too could have been wrong.

Live long and prosper

confusion is created because BOEING officilas consistently claim highest thrust variant 414 will be available for tejas .

I am not the only one throughout the net many people are hinting at it.

So can you explain the level of technical development of EPE engine and how developed it is vis a vis pakfa engine?

It will clear lot of confusion.

Also if you say which are the threads spoiled by me and correct my mistake it will help me post more properly in future,

Threads are meant for discussion about aerodynamic principles and the future scope of development, not for peddling personal opinions with no source to back.

people who post in serious thread must not use words like DUDE, D**k measuring and all the stuff in the first place, and then the other guy strikes back ,why bemoan the quality of thread is destroyed.

First let me simply teach you some net manners,

A proper reply for you to make is,

sakthivel as of now there is no confirmation that , EPE is available for TEJAS mk -2,

Then I would have given a proper reply like,

OK , I too said the same. But if it is available it would make tejas so much more better.

 

[ersakthivel]

For what its worth.

@Ersathikvel

Dude. calm down. It is not necessary to be proved right every time. You should see what you are doing along the way. You are completely destroying some of the best threads of this forum. In addition, one thing I have noticed about you is that you read the correct articles, but you always end up making the wrong conclusions. For example, your claim about 17 EPE engines is wrong. That article meant something else. Read carefully, and read every article twice. It is very difficult for anyone to debate with you when you post an article and make wrong assumption out of it. We cannot go on pointing out your mistakes. You can be a very good poster, but first of all you need to accept that it is ok to be wrong sometimes. I myself have been proved wrong numerous times on this forum. There is nothing embarrassing about it. We come here to learn and not for d*ck measuring. I do not expect you to reply to this post but just read it carefully and accept that you too could have been wrong.

Live long and prosper

the article clearly stated that 17 engines with components based on this tech is working, And I know that perfectly well.

The JAS-39 Gripen: Sweden's 4+ Generation Wild Card

Engine. Hauling all of that around will require a more powerful engine than the current RM12 variant of GE's popular F404. GE's F414, produced in partnership with Volvo Aero and in use on the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet family, will be that engine. The base model offers a 25-35% power boost over its predecessor the F404, and the developmental F414 EPE could offer another 20% thrust increase on top of that, for a total boost of 50-62%.

Swedes And Swiss Move Toward Joint Gripen

The E/F is expected to supercruise with weapons carried. Still under discussion is whether to use the Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) version of the F414, which could be configured to deliver more thrust, better fuel efficiency or a combination of the two.

A complete mature engine is may not be put on a production fighter by now,

But what are the odds than grippen Ng and new export versions of super HORNETs which are going to be the main users of EPE not winning any export orders for the next 10 years?

 

[Defcon 1]

the article clearly stated that 17 engines with components based on this tech is working, And I know that perfectly well.

The JAS-39 Gripen: Sweden's 4+ Generation Wild Card



Swedes And Swiss Move Toward Joint Gripen

As you say Mr. I am always right. The reason I didn't show courtesy to you in my previous post, is because you don't deserve it.

 

[ersakthivel]

As you say Mr. I am always right. The reason I didn't show courtesy to you in my previous post, is because you don't deserve it.

It is better to have a fair discussion with technical points and quotes than having the courtesy of some people who want to turn a few threads into private pleasures of posting what they like and abusing anyone who questions it.

no need to discuss anything further.

thanks a lot.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[sathya]

the black circle at the nose seems like photoshop work. . ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

the black circle at the nose seems like photoshop work. . ?

No they are testing different electronics and materials..

 

[Abhi9]

More on the 5th gen engines for PAKFA
http://www.odnako.org/magazine/material/show_22213/
«Мы должны научиться сосредотачиваться на приоритетных направлениях» - - Журнал "Однако" номер #4 (20)

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