Su-30 MKI

[p2prada]

People. Adding Nirbhay on MKI isn't just "good"development. It is a Holy Fvking Sh!t development.

Nobody else has this capabilityor planning this including Russia.

 

[Yusuf]

That's a good development. But they have yet to validate the Brahmos on the MKI, which is smaller than the Nirbhay. I think a lot of work is required to make it air launch capable, more than the Brahmos, for sure.

Brahmos weighs 3 tons, Nirbhay said to be 1 ton. Its going to be easier to fit Nirbhay on an MKI than Brahmos.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

is the missile approach warning system(maws) be integrated with fighters only .bel should come up with land based and naval version

 

[Dark Sorrow]

is the missile approach warning system(maws) be integrated with fighters only .bel should come up with land based and naval version

Ground and ship based radars can easily pick up incoming missile. So no need for such system.

 

[black eagle]

HAL to commence "Super- 30" modernization project for Sukhoi Su 30mki from 2012 onwards


As per latest issue of India's Premier Aviation and Defence magazine "Vayu Aerospace". Nasik Division of HAL will start modernization of last batch of 40 Sukhoi Su 30MKI under "Super -30" Project from 2012.

Russian and Indian Specialist are still working on technical performance, under this Project Indian government will be allocating close to US$2.4 billion for Deep Modernization for all the Sukhoi Su30 MKI fleet currently but these upgrades will be carried out only on newly built Su-30, which will be last batch of Su-30 to join IAF.

This first 40 aircrafts will also get, strengthening of air frame to enable them to carry near 2.5 tonne, Air launched version of Brahmos , Indian air force have already provided two Su-30MKI aircrafts in 2010 to carry out such modification to the airframe and Air launch variant is also ready only integration with airframe is left .

Under "Super -30" Project, Su 30MKI will get Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE Active Electronically Scanned Array AESA radars along with new onboard mission computers, electronic warfare systems and new Russian BVR Missiles rumored to be Novator K-100 missile also known has "AWCS Killer" and also India's own Astra BVR Missile .

Current batches of Su -30 which HAL has been manufacturing are from MKI-3 variants which are further improvement over earlier batches, and "Super -30" upgrades will be carried out in batch wise and older lot of MKI-1 will be covered first.

After initial 40 plus aircrafts, older aircrafts will not be receiving any airframe modification to carry Air launched variant of Brahmos, so Brahmos air variant will limited to certain number airframes of MKI fleet only and not all, but all other aircraft fleet of Sukhoi 30 in Indian air force will be able to carry DRDO developed Sub-sonic Cruise Missile "Nirbhay" and other newly developed BVR missiles.

 

[nitesh]

A series of these news are coming, this clearly shows how badly we have to accelerate our own programs, the services has to change the attitude of being high nosed customers and start being stake holders in the projects
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/national/russia-spat-delays-brahmos-air-version-036

A war of words between India and Russia is threatening to delay the development of the air version of the BrahMos cruise missile, a joint effort of the two countries.
Friction between the two countries mainly stems from the redesigning of the Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft to make it capable of launching a 300-kg BrahMos supersonic missile from the air.
While the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) wants its Russian partner, NPO Mashinostroeyenia, to foot the bill, the latter feels that India should be financing the Sukhoi redesigning.
Irked by the unreasonable demands placed by Russia, India has decided to go it alone. The DRDO has asked Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to submit a plan for the Sukhoi redesigning.
HAL's technicians have done a preliminary study and have conveyed to the BrahMos Aerospace that they can undertake the task at a "much, much lesser cost".
Top sources told this newspaper that though the Russians are ready to undertake the redesigning, "they are asking a lot of money". Sources, however, refused to reveal the exact bill Russians wanted to slap on the DRDO.
When asked whether "is it something like a hundred crores", pat came the reply: "Many, many hundred crores!"
But more than the amount it's the Russian style of business that has irked Indian defence scientists. "They are preventing us from undertaking the job, citing a clause in the transfer of technology pact," said a source. "They won't do it for a reasonable amount and aren't allowing us to do it either."
The standoff has already delayed the testing of the air version of the missile. "We have made the launcher that would be integrated with the Sukhoi. It has been ground-tested. But we need to confirm our studies by firing a missile from it when the aircraft is engaged in high-speed manoeuvres," sources said.
For carrying the missile, Sukhoi's underbelly will have to be further strengthened and reinforced. "There will be some structural changes to the fuselage too," said the source. "This will allow the Sukhoi to continue to carry its normal menu of missiles and anti-aircraft guns."
The Russian reaction to the DRDO's move is still awaited. "Well, they normally engage us in these who-will-blink-first games," added the source. "But this time we wanted to clearly communicate that we can't be fatigued out of this. If all goes well, we will have the first test flight before the yearend."

 

[mki]

Hi guys .......

I had read something in wiki that Irbis-E radar (su-35) is one of the most capable radar.

Irbis-E can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets at one time at ranges near 400 kilometers, and attack up to 12. In air-to-surface mode the Irbis-E provides mapping allowing to attack a surface target with precision-guided weapons while scanning the horizon searching for airborne threats that can be engaged using active radar homing missiles.
Tikhomirov NIIP has provided the ability to spot super-low observable targets with RCS equal to 0.01 square meters at ranges out to 90 kilometers.
This capability allows the aircraft to engage cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles as well as fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft, such as the F-22 and F-35. The Irbis-E was clearly designed to support the ramjet RVV-AE-PD/R-77M missile in Beyond Visual Range combat against reduced signature Western fighters like the Block-II F-18 Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon. Curiously, NIIP does not claim Irbis-E has superiority over the F-22's APG-77 AESA, yet their cited performance figures exceed range figures for the APG-77. -- Wiki

If we go it Irbis-e radar we have edge over almost all advance 4th and 4th++ fighter jets.


http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html#mozTocId332358

 

[p2prada]

Irbis E is a superior radar system to the Bars. The Irbis AESA version is designed to be better than the Phazatron version, but it is not yet ready. The Irbis E will also need a more powerful engine and that will affect the range of the MKI if fuel capacity is not increased to 11 tons from the current 9.6 tons.

That's why we are going for Phazatron. It is more mature than Irbis AESA.

We will see much more advanced versions of the Irbis on the PAKFA, so no worries there.

 

[mki]

Irbis E is a superior radar system to the Bars. The Irbis AESA version is designed to be better than the Phazatron version, but it is not yet ready. The Irbis E will also need a more powerful engine and that will affect the range of the MKI if fuel capacity is not increased to 11 tons from the current 9.6 tons.

That's why we are going for Phazatron. It is more mature than Irbis AESA.

We will see much more advanced versions of the Irbis on the PAKFA, so no worries there.

roger that sir........ thanks for clearing my doubt....

 

[Armand2REP]

If you believe those Irbis-E stats, I have the London Bridge to sell you.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

well the dassault company once claimed that the rafael is the best fighter in the world.doesn't that sound a big joke to you.every designer claims higher figure than what the product actually is. and this is true not only for russians but also for europeans and americans.but this anti-russian propoganda is really unwaranted.

 

[p2prada]

If you believe those Irbis-E stats, I have the London Bridge to sell you.

The Irbis E stats are real. Even MKI's engines cannot power it and that is a known fact.

Only the Su-35BM and higher versions can power the radar and that was confirmed by Indian officials as well.

The MKI uses 126.5Kn engines which was uprated to 131KN on later versions. Irbis needs 147KN and higher. The power packs for item 117S are bigger than the A-31FP.

 

[whiplash]

The Irbis E stats are real. Even MKI's engines cannot power it and that is a known fact.

Only the Su-35BM and higher versions can power the radar and that was confirmed by Indian officials as well.

The MKI uses 126.5Kn engines which was uprated to 131KN on later versions. Irbis needs 147KN and higher. The power packs for item 117S are bigger than the A-31FP.

I think the 400km detection range for 3 sqm targets is total bullshit. I mean thats almost AWACS like!

 

[smartindian]

The Irbis E stats are real. Even MKI's engines cannot power it and that is a known fact.

Only the Su-35BM and higher versions can power the radar and that was confirmed by Indian officials as well.

The MKI uses 126.5Kn engines which was uprated to 131KN on later versions. Irbis needs 147KN and higher. The power packs for item 117S are bigger than the A-31FP.

i have one doubt here why cant we simply replace older engine with new one , because su-27,30,35 are from the same family . if it can be what are the problem we can face

 

[Kunal Biswas]

i have one doubt here why cant we simply replace older engine with new one , because su-27,30,35 are from the same family . if it can be what are the problem we can face

Power plant can be changed, But it will hamper MKI fleet as it will be a major upgrade..

Its Weight of the radar, Irbis E can be installed on MKI but it will limit its maneuverability, Presently IAF use Bars which is PESA and gives 350km of scan can & track 15 air targets but it have its limitations, Where Zhuk ASE scan 200 km with 60 targets tracked its light weight and offers everything what MKI needs..

During the April trials for the MiG-35, the Zhuk AE test radar

Zhuk ASE AESA - Scaling the Zhuk AE for the Flanker

One of the stated intentions of Phazotron is to scale up the Zhuk AE for the Flanker, in the manner of the Zhuk-27 and Zhuk-MSFE variants, using a 0.98 metre diameter aperture.

If we assume that such a scaled up design uses exactly the same quad module technology as the Zhuk AE does, and an enlarged cooling plate and mounting frame, then the achievable performance will scale with the aperture size. For the 0.98 m antenna outside diameter, assuming a similar unused area around the emitter array, the total usable aperture diameter will be around 0.8 metres, and the element count will sit at around 1160. If we assume tighter placement and a 1.1 metre antenna outside diameter, as used in the Pero PESA, then the total usable aperture diameter will be around 0.95 metres, and the element count will sit at around 1630, or about the same as the Zhuk-MSFE PESA design.

With a peak power rating of 10 Watts/channel the latter yields a peak power of the order of 16.3 kW which results in a radar which outperforms the N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-71 and APG-79 in raw power aperture performance. Such a radar could reach IOC around 2010 if it is funded properly, in step with the timelines for the NIIP Irbis E.

If Phazotron improve the TR channel power rating as they have stated an intent to do, then the results bear some careful consideration. Tabulating options yields some interesting results.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html

 

[p2prada]

I think the 400km detection range for 3 sqm targets is total bullshit. I mean thats almost AWACS like!

Irbis claims could be as real as claimed by any manufacturer. Reduce manufacturer claims by 10 to 20% for true ranges.

Irbis has a higher resolution at closer ranges. The 350Km+ detection range is for 3m2 targets which is an upgrade from the 350Km for 20m2 and 200Km for 3m2 target for Bars which delivers less than half the power of the Irbis.

AWACS claim such large ranges because of their processing capabilities. Even these claims are dodgy at best. For eg: The Phalcon claims 400Km detection range with a peak power less than 10KW. The Swedish Erieye claims 350Km with a 2.5KW radar peak power.

Irbis claims ~20KW of peak power achieved. So, why is the detection figure not realistic? Also you have to consider the fact that AWACS claim greater than 300deg coverage while fighter radars claim 140deg in the frontal hemisphere and lesser in the rear hemisphere which means a greater amount of power is focussed in a smaller radius thereby increasing chances of detection.

Fact is the western manufacturers claim very high ranges with lesser power and when Russians achieve the same with more power, they say it is impossible. It's called prejudice.

So, in the end I would say the Irbis exceeds AWACS in detection and perhaps even tracking if Russian software is as good as Western.

 

[p2prada]

i have one doubt here why cant we simply replace older engine with new one , because su-27,30,35 are from the same family . if it can be what are the problem we can face

Other than increased costs and waste of time, it will affect MKIs range because of it's reduced fuel capacity. The single seat Su-35BM has an extra fuel tank where our second pilot is supposed to be seated. That manages the extra fuel required for the extra power delivered. Not so much with the MKI.

PAKFA has a more powerful engine than that on the Su-35, but it has a lower fuel capacity than BM by a ton. However a newer more advanced engine with better SFC will cover up the difference.

The Phazatron requires lesser power than Bars and exceeds Bars capabilities. This frees up power for other aspects like EW.

 

[Armand2REP]

The Irbis E stats are real. Even MKI's engines cannot power it and that is a known fact.

Only the Su-35BM and higher versions can power the radar and that was confirmed by Indian officials as well.

The MKI uses 126.5Kn engines which was uprated to 131KN on later versions. Irbis needs 147KN and higher. The power packs for item 117S are bigger than the A-31FP.

Nice... too bad it is bunk when a 135kw EMPAR radar can only detect .1m^2 at 50km and yet is is 10 times more powerful than Irbis and 20 times less efficient? Like I said... I got a bridge to sell ya!

 

[p2prada]

Nice... too bad it is bunk when a 135kw EMPAR radar can only detect .1m^2 at 50km and yet is is 10 times more powerful than Irbis and 20 times less efficient? Like I said... I got a bridge to sell ya!

You pointed out to a Sh!tty radar by today's standards.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=...&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

It's a C band radar and it's duty cycle is 10 to 12%. This means most of the 135KW power is lost to uselessness. It's detection ranges will obviously be limited by it's decades old software. The figure of 50 Km for 0.1m2 you gave for EMPAR is as of 1987.

It is an ancient radar. Even IAF has old super powerful radars that does nothing even though they claim detection ranges of 1500Km.

Irbis is an X band radar and has a much higher efficiency. It is mostly superior to any fighter radar today except the 2nd and 3rd generation AESA radars of equivalent power like the APG-77.

I understand you trying to sell me a bridge, but sell me a bridge as of 2011, not as of 1973. London Bridge is falling down, falling down....

 

[Armand2REP]

The peak power for the Irbis is only going to get around 10% translated into actual power gain, it is the same for all radars. duh

Like you are going to make a case that European radar technology is obsolete compared to Russian... please. I still have that bridge for you. lol