Su-30 MKI

[RAM]

Day after crash, IAF grounds Sukhoi fleet for checks

NEW DELHI: The country's entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet has been grounded for "precautionary checks'' after one of these "air dominance'' fighter jets crashed in Rajasthan on Monday. IAF has sought the help of Russia and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to investigate the crash.

The two pilots, Wing Commander Srivastava and Flight Lieutenant Arora, had ejected from the Russian-origin fighter while taking part in fire-power exercises at Pokhran after fire alarms went off in the cockpit around 5.30 pm.

"Preliminary indications are that it was caused due to a technical defect. The pilots ejected after they saw fire alarm buttons glowing red... Probably the engines were on fire,'' said a source.

"The airframe and systems of the entire fleet will undergo a thorough inspection before they are allowed to take to the skies again,'' he added.

IAF is already in touch with experts from Russia, with the Sukhois still being under contractual warrantee, as well as HAL, which had "manufactured/assembled'' the fighter indigenously, to help in the court of inquiry ordered to investigate the exact reason behind the crash.

Even the earlier Sukhoi crash of April 30 is primarily attributed to technical defects, with "some'' design problems and system malfunctions playing a role in the mishap.

Defence minister A K Antony, in fact, had held that the April 30 crash was due to "a likely failure of the fly-by-wire system''. The Sukhoi fleet had then been grounded for around three weeks.

IAF has inducted 105 of the 230 twin-seater Sukhois -- primarily based in Pune and Bareilly at present -- contracted from Russia in three deals worth upwards of $8.5 billion.

With both China and Pakistan bolstering their air combat fleets, IAF has asked the government for another 50 Sukhois -- each of which would cost around $45 million -- to cater for any contingency on both the eastern and western fronts.

HAL, in fact, has been directed to end the production of 140 of the original 230 jets under transfer of technology by 2015, instead of the originally scheduled 2017-2018.

With the Sukhois being the latest and most potent fighter in India's combat fleet, IAF already earmarked airbases like Tezpur and Chabua in Assam, Halwara (Punjab) and Jodhpur (Rajasthan) as the new airbases to house two Sukhoi squadrons each. Earlier this year, the first four Sukhois were deployed in Tezpur to kickstart the entire process.

Day after crash, IAF grounds Sukhoi fleet for checks - India - The Times of India

 

[RPK]

Yup, there is. The chinese crashed 4 Su-30s and 1 Su-27. This much is known to public. Given their secretive nature, I believe many might have gone down.


HAL manufactured MKIs costs less than 25 million. So it isn't a very big loss.

Can you provide as the link for chinese crash & MKI cost

 

[fulcrum]

Yeah, like NSG said, check the 40th post, I've given the link for MKI cost. For chinese crash- China_PR

 

[fulcrum]

each of which would cost around $45 million

Ooo.. 37.5 million to less than 45 million? The previous deal was signed long back, so I guess inflation and the falling dollar value have increased the price to more than 40 million for this new deal. Well Nalini did say "current" import price.

"HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty has said that the Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million [5]."

If only HAL speeded up its production, there wouldn't be any need for 50 additional imports.

 

[p2prada]

Ooo.. 37.5 million to less than 45 million? The previous deal was signed long back, so I guess inflation and the falling dollar value have increased the price to more than 40 million for this new deal. Well Nalini did say "current" import price.

"HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty has said that the Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million [5]."

If only HAL speeded up its production, there wouldn't be any need for 50 additional imports.

The 22.5 million price tag was for a 2004 Flanker, not a 2010 Flanker. The price for an indigenous MKI is 40-45 million.

 

[AJSINGH]

it is sad that another MKI crashed but it is good that pilots are safe because IAF spends around 11 crore on a single pilot

 

[fulcrum]

The 22.5 million price tag was for a 2004 Flanker, not a 2010 Flanker. The price for an indigenous MKI is 40-45 million.

So what has changed from 2004 to 2010? A 100% inflation? I don't think so.
Any link which says HAL manufactured MKI costs 40-45 million? The current import costs as much as the above fig.

 

[StealthSniper]

Natasha alerted Sukhoi pilots of fire


The second-ever crash of a Sukhoi-30 fighter jet in Rajasthan on Monday may have been caused by engine fire, air force sources said, ruling out the possibility of human error.

A female voice warning system in the twin engine Su-30 cockpit, called Natasha in the Indian Air Force, alerted the pilots about the engine fire.

The air force sources said on Tuesday, “The pilots also spotted the fire and took a decision to eject. The cause of the fire will be established by a Court of Inquiry.”

The plane’s flight data recorder or black box has been sent for an analysis.

Natasha, a voice information and reporting system (VIFR), warns fighter pilots if they are flying too low, if the engine develops a snag or the aircraft is running low on fuel.

The female voice warning system is known as the *****ing Betty in the US fighter aircraft. It is believed within military aviation circles that most male pilots would respond more quickly to a female voice.

Su-30s, inducted in 1997, were grounded for a day on Tuesday pending a preliminary inquiry. The fighter jets will resume flying in a day or two.

Defence minister A.K. Antony had attributed the first Sukhoi crash, on April 30, to a likely failure of the fly-by-wire system. This means the pilot could not get the plane to respond to his command. The air force has lost 13 aircrafts in accidents this year.

The Sukhois are due for an upgrade in their weapons package, radar and avionics. The IAF has around 100-odd Sukhoi fighters scattered across fighter bases in Pune, Bareilly and Tezpur.

Link:

?Natasha? alerted Sukhoi pilots of fire- Hindustan Times

 

[enlightened1]

Week after flight, President wants to know why Su-30MKIs are crashing​

​

President of India Pratibha Patil has expressed concern and asked to be supplied with more information on the grounding of the Indian Air Force's Sukhoi fleet, just days after she became the first ever woman to fly in a Su-30MKI fighter. Sources tell LiveFist that Air HQ is currently preparing a comprehensive docket with information on the November 30 accident involving a Sukhoi-30MKI, in which both pilots survived, plus information on the procedures used by the IAF which necessitates such temporary no-flying periods to eliminate immediate problem areas that may have flight safety implications across the fleet.

Just to stir up the irony a little more, here's what the folks at Irkutsk had to say in a trumpeting little statement (nevermind the English) on the day that the President went up in the MKI: "In India, this plane has become a symbol of national pride. It takes part in all military parades and aviation exhibitions held in the country, successfully represents the national air forces on the international military games. Its image is placed on the anniversary coin which has been let out to the 75th anniversary of the air forces of India."

 

[fulcrum]

Yes! The black box has been recovered! This would be very useful.

BTW, regarding MKI cost:

How much does a Su-30MKI cost?
Nov 12 2009

230 Sukhoi-30MKI jets, Indian Air force's Primary multirole fighter costs 8.5 billion. So the average cost of a single jet is 36.96 million. But that isn't the whole story. Lets analyze in detail.
Many deals were signed with varying costs and other factors.
Deal 1: 40 jets. Cost 1,462 million.
Deal 2: 10 jets. Cost 277.01 million. Unit cost 27.7 million.
Deal 3: 140 jets. Cost 4,809* million.
Deal 4: 40 jets. Costs 1,600 million. Unit cost slightly less than 40 million.

230 jets cost: 8148 million
8148 + 270** = 8418 ~ 8500 or 8.5 billion.

*4,809 million(previously it was 20,000 Cr Rupees or 4.35 billion) includes: Cost for license, ToT(Transfer of Technology), assistance & for setting up the production line in HAL(Hindustan Aeronautics Limited), 350 million or less for components procured from Irkut which wasn't manufactured by HAL, 26 aircraft kits supplied by Irkut & assembled by HAL, and the actual production in HAL. So the average cost of the HAL manufactured fighter is 34.35 million.

**270 million is for replacing the Su-30K acquired in Deals 1 & 2 with new MKIs.

Deal 5: 50 jets. Unit cost around/less than 45 million. Total cost 2250 million.
For 280 jets the total cost comes to: 2250 + 8418 = 10.668 billion.

Assumption:
HAL could manufacture the Sukhoi fighters at about 22.5 million per unit, as per an old statement from HAL chairman. In the revised deal which shortened the time frame, and added 350 million or less worth of components from Russia which would have been costlier if HAL manufactured it previously and presently(HAL claims they can manufacture a 100% indigenous MKI next year within contract figures), lets assume the cost is 27 million(including imported components and local inflation), an increase of 4.5 million. 27 X 114 = 3078 million. So around 1.731 billion is the cost for license, ToT, assistance & for setting up the production line in HAL, and 26 aircraft kits supplied by Irkut & assembled by HAL. Ofcourse, this is a rough assumption since MKI has been indigenised in stages and the "27 million" fig may be reduced as time passes. Setting up assembly and getting ToT is indeed costly.



[All figures in U.S dollars]

References:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/..._with_40_more_Sukhois/articleshow/1581347.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-presses-HAL-for-more-Sukhois/articleshow/4832280.cms

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html
--------
fighterplanes.tk

 

[ppgj]

Yes! The black box has been recovered! This would be very useful.

BTW, regarding MKI cost:

but does the cost you have arrived at includes the cost of items sourced french, israeli companies?
does it also include the cost of indian avionics?

 

[fulcrum]

But does the cost you have arrived at includes the cost of items sourced french, israeli companies?
does it also include the cost of indian avionics?

As the link says, the contract is for the whole jet, everything included. French avionics have been replaced by indigenous stuff. French mainly provide non-critical avionics like MFDs, GPS and stuff. I read somewhere that HAL is replacing some or all of that with their own make. The critical Jammer system from IAI is a pod IIRC. So it is carried externally at the wing tips. So that means, it's not part of, or integrated into the Aircraft. So my guess is it is not part of the contract. Even if it is, it won't be very costly. The costliest and the most significant avionics of any fighter is the Radar, and that is Russian.

 

[ppgj]

As the link says, the contract is for the whole jet, everything included. French avionics have been replaced by indigenous stuff. French mainly provide non-critical avionics like MFDs, GPS and stuff. I read somewhere that HAL is replacing some or all of that with their own make. The critical Jammer system from IAI is a pod IIRC. So it is carried externally at the wing tips. So that means, it's not part of, or integrated into the Aircraft. So my guess is it is not part of the contract. Even if it is, it won't be very costly. The costliest and the most significant avionics of any fighter is the Radar, and that is Russian.

well i am not sure. even our own single engined LCA's are rumoured to be between 21 to 31 mil dollars which ofcourse i can't substantiate with links.
so it is difficult to take your assertion at face value. they are monsters and double engined.

 

[ppgj]

As the link says, the contract is for the whole jet, everything included. French avionics have been replaced by indigenous stuff. French mainly provide non-critical avionics like MFDs, GPS and stuff. I read somewhere that HAL is replacing some or all of that with their own make. The critical Jammer system from IAI is a pod IIRC. So it is carried externally at the wing tips. So that means, it's not part of, or integrated into the Aircraft. So my guess is it is not part of the contract. Even if it is, it won't be very costly. The costliest and the most significant avionics of any fighter is the Radar, and that is Russian.

this is from the link you provided-

"The deal will be signed within this financial year. They will come for a little less than $40 million apiece," said ACM Tyagi. IAF already operates around 50 multi-role Sukhoi-30MKIs, which are based in Pune
, Bareilly and Halwara

IAF to add muscle with 40 more Sukhois - India - The Times of India

 

[fulcrum]

well i am not sure. even our own single engined LCA's are rumoured to be between 21 to 31 mil dollars which ofcourse i can't substantiate with links.
so it is difficult to take your assertion at face value. they are monsters and double engined.

Defence industry is a funny place where a Raptor with Aesa with state of the art highly secretive stuff is only 38 million more than F-15s. Each F-15K is estimated at $105 million. Infact, if USAF ordered more raptors, each raptor would have been at the same price of Eurofighter and Rafale. You are not buying 2 or 3 kgs of Rice where more kgs means more price. The more you order, the price falls drastically! And Russian stuff is known to be cheap and rugged. All the over the top CF composites must be having costing a ton of money on the LCA program.

this is from the link you provided-
IAF to add muscle with 40 more Sukhois - India - The Times of India

Yes, that is the import price for the 40 additional orders. Russians are known to increase costs citing excuses. Infact the new order is pegged at 45 million.

Deal 1: 40 jets. Cost 1,462 million.
Deal 2: 10 jets. Cost 277.01 million. Unit cost 27.7 million.
Deal 3: 140 jets. Cost 4,809* million.
Deal 4: 40 jets. Costs 1,600 million. Unit cost slightly less than 40 million.
Deal 5: 50 jets. Unit cost around/less than 45 million. Total cost 2250 million.

The previous deals were signed when Russia just emerged from the Soviet union and was economically weak. Now they are strong enough to dictate terms of their liking. Gorshkov is an example. In any case even with 45 million, it's only 10 million costlier than the HAL produced versions(including set-up ToT and other costs). Compare this to rip-offs from Europe.

BTW, the same link which you quoted, also quotes the total cost of HAL's MKI.

 

[fulcrum]

BTW, check this out: Single engined but costly:

Greece's top brass had opted for the F-15 which had the best test reviews but its high price, about $75 million each, rendered the purchase prohibitive. The F-16 cost about $45 million and the Mirage about $58 million. The officials said a combination of all three types of planes being purchased was also being examined.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article5.html

Even F-15 E or H costs 75 million. Something is seriously wrong with Western nations.

 

[ppgj]

You are not buying 2 or 3 kgs of Rice where more kgs means more price. The more you order, the price falls drastically! And Russian stuff is known to be cheap and rugged. All the over the top CF composites must be having costing a ton of money on the LCA program.

ofc i am not talking about weight either of rice or the a/c.
just look at the capabilties of a su 30mki which is also 2 engined vis-a-vis LCA or f-16. there can't be a comparison. and hence more cost.
yes more numbers mean less cost but even at 45mil it is the minimum you can hope for in today's market.
local manufacture may reduce it a bit but the cost of infrastructure for that brings it back to square one.

Yes, that is the import price for the 40 additional orders. Russians are known to increase costs citing excuses. Infact the new order is pegged at 45 million.

which is what p2p was saying.

In any case even with 45 million, it's only 10 million costlier than the HAL produced versions(including set-up ToT and other costs). Compare this to rip-offs from Europe.

i doubt it will be 10 mil difference. costs of labour/pay have also gone up in india. but even that is eaten away by the infrastructure needed to manufacture them.

BTW, the same link which you quoted, also quotes the total cost of HAL's MKI.

but i pointed out the fig you needed.
btw it was you who provided the link.

 

[venkat]

My doubt is have the pilots seen actual fire in the engines? if yes how can they see fire sitting in the cockpit? cameras might have been mounted inside the cockpit only? more over , most of the engines are covered inside the aircraft rear fuselage,except for the exhaust! Fire is indirectly detected with the help of temperature sensors mounted at various points. The signals from the sensors are processed and fed to fire warning system which in turn will send a warning to the voice warning sytem with Natasha alerting the pilot with a synthetic voice message! suppose if the thermocouples have misbehaved and shown abnormal increase in temp . when there is none ,giving a false alarm to the pilot ,which might prompt pilots to press eject button ,sensing fire! secondly a fuel leak in the engine may also cause an unwanted fire! A leak in the fuel plumbing line,an improper oil seal....etc...The exact reason is to be probed with sherlock holmes precision for our own good!

 

[fulcrum]

i doubt it will be 10 mil difference. costs of labour/pay have also gone up in india. but even that is eaten away by the infrastructure needed to manufacture them.

Any link which says HAL's workforce have gotten a huge % of pay rise and this has increased the MKI cost?
The link clearly says the TOTAL cost of the project is 4809 million, which means everything included. Another link clearly says 230 jets cost 8.5 billion. Why are you disputing the sources?

yes more numbers mean less cost but even at 45mil it is the minimum you can hope for in today's market.

Says who? The americans who are traditionally costilier than the Russians? or the Rip-off Europeans? A Mig-29Ks unit cost is 32 million. A Mig-29M's unit cost will be even less since it doesn't have the carrier enhancements like rugged frame & landing gear, tail hook and corrosion resistant body. All this in a limited production run of only 16 fighters. Only 16!! If the order was 100 then expect it to touch as low as 20-25 million in export. If it is inhouse production then it would be even less.

but i pointed out the fig you needed.
btw it was you who provided the link.

No you didn't. What you posted was infact what I posted previously. You were assuming I didn't read it? I was all along saying the same thing, that new imported jets cost 45 million.

This is what prada said: "The price for an indigenous MKI is 40-45 million" when clearly it is 10 million less. It is 15-20 million less if you do not take into account ToT and setup expenses.

 

[ppgj]

Any link which says HAL's workforce have gotten a huge % of pay rise and this has increased the MKI cost?

salaries and pay have gone up for GOI employees including HAL.

With the acceptance of the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission by the Union Cabinet, the pay of about 50 lakh government employees will go up by at least 21 per cent.

6th Pay Commission Scales - 21% Salary Hike For Central Staff In Sixth Pay Commission

The link clearly says the TOTAL cost of the project is 4809 million, which means everything included. Another link clearly says 230 jets cost 8.5 billion. Why are you disputing the sources?

you must remember the progressive increase of the cost with time. we are talking the cost as of today.

A Mig-29Ks unit cost is 32 million.

no 37mil plus.
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...a-eyes-follow-on-order-for-naval-mig-29s.html

The order is likely to be worth around $1.1 billion and fits in with the navy's plan to have a combination of high and medium fighters for its air combat capabilities.

the order is for 29 mig 29k if i am right.

A Mig-29M's unit cost will be even less since it doesn't have the carrier enhancements like rugged frame & landing gear, tail hook and corrosion resistant body. All this in a limited production run of only 16 fighters. Only 16!! If the order was 100 then expect it to touch as low as 20-25 million in export. If it is inhouse production then it would be even less.

ofc it will be less but not to extent you think.

No you didn't. What you posted was infact what I posted previously. You were assuming I didn't read it? I was all along saying the same thing, that new imported jets cost 45 million.

that is what i said. check back.

This is what prada said: "The price for an indigenous MKI is 40-45 million" when clearly it is 10 million less. It is 15-20 million less if you do not take into account ToT and setup expenses.

i would agree with p2p.
now you give links since you keep asking and prove your 15-20 mil less claim.