Stumpp Schuele & Somappa Defence LTD

[Suryavanshi]

@Johny_Baba I'm just ending what you had started. Feel free to correct me.

So few facts.
1. Almost all the stocks used on SSS's sniper rifles are either straight from a Canadian/US company named MDT (Modular Driven Technologies) or are just their knockoffs. Especially ESS, LSS and ACC stocks of MDT.

2. Actions on sniper rifles are probably one of the typical Remington 700 pattern bolt actions, plethora of which are available in US. Also is uses the common AICS magazine.

3. Same goes with trigger. Typical aftermarket trigger for Remingtons.

4. Pistol grip used on sniper rifles and all of the P-72s are also from a US company; and surprisingly its name is MDT.

5. As you mentioned, all the AK modification are actually from Texas Weapon Systems, their Dog Leg series.

6. The pistol grip used on the modified AKs is from Hogue. Again USA.

7. The folding stock in the modified AKs is in fact a Viper MOD-1, made by Strike Industries, USA.

8. The folding hinge system used on modified AKs is either the one made by Sylvan Arms, USA or it's knockoff.

All the claims of in-house development and having IPRs are more or less just bluffs. They are doing what our OFBs have done since their inception; copying and labelling StAtE oF tHe ArT. The only difference is that OFB can't even do that properly.
Problem here is not that they are copying foreign design or working in joint venture. The problem here is that they are just using our emotions and enthusiasm of indigenous stuff and #aatmanirbharbharat for their marketing. Not to mention the lack of worthy competition and level of firearm related knowledge in general populace.

So ya, cheetos.

Any source for this?

 

[Bhadra]

Desirable to who? Best thing to do is to sell design to foreign company then market it as a foreign rifle back to IA, maybe then IA would actually pay attention.

Like F-22 or F-35 or ULH or Barret sinpper rifles .. the Indain designs .... Ah...

Vidwanshak..... arguments are Vidwanshak sell that design...

 

[Lonewarrior]

Any source for this?

What kind of sources do you need?

 

[Johny_Baba]

@Johny_Baba I'm just ending what you had started. Feel free to correct me.

So few facts.
1. Almost all the stocks used on SSS's sniper rifles are either straight from a Canadian/US company named MDT (Modular Driven Technologies) or are just their knockoffs. Especially ESS, LSS and ACC stocks of MDT.

2. Actions on sniper rifles are probably one of the typical Remington 700 pattern bolt actions, plethora of which are available in US. Also is uses the common AICS magazine.

3. Same goes with trigger. Typical aftermarket trigger for Remingtons.

4. Pistol grip used on sniper rifles and all of the P-72s are also from a US company; and surprisingly its name is MDT.

5. As you mentioned, all the AK modification are actually from Texas Weapon Systems, their Dog Leg series.

6. The pistol grip used on the modified AKs is from Hogue. Again USA.

7. The folding stock in the modified AKs is in fact a Viper MOD-1, made by Strike Industries, USA.

8. The folding hinge system used on modified AKs is either the one made by Sylvan Arms, USA or it's knockoff.

All the claims of in-house development and having IPRs are more or less just bluffs. They are doing what our OFBs have done since their inception; copying and labelling StAtE oF tHe ArT. The only difference is that OFB can't even do that properly.
Problem here is not that they are copying foreign design or working in joint venture. The problem here is that they are just using our emotions and enthusiasm of indigenous stuff and #aatmanirbharbharat for their marketing. Not to mention the lack of worthy competition and level of firearm related knowledge in general populace.

So ya, cheetos.

Thank you friend for this detailed explanation regarding things with SSS and i must say i am indebted to you for this as after a while i kinda lost interest in finding out things on my own (large reason for that being very busy life).

Reading this,i also agree with things pointed out at last two paras and my doubts over them has truned into firm confirmation.

 

[Suryavanshi]

What kind of sources do you need?

Do u mean to say the company is essentially copying design from foreign firms or are they buying the items and sticking it all togethers in its p72.
Cause if it's the former than their is nothing wrong with it other than being unethical.
What matters is that all it's raw material and production resources are sourced in India.

Gun design is a saturated platform so their isn't much room for design, almost every new gun will look like the previous guns.

Their American influence is understandable since they had a JV with LMT and most of their initial R&D and tetsing was done in America.

If tomorrow they can modify their design based on IA recommendations than I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[Johny_Baba]

@Lonewarrior Can you find some info on their other products too like (a)Upgrade Kit for SVD (Dragunov Sniper Rifle) and most importantly (b) P-72 rifle and variants under that line ?

'specially I don't get many things regarding to P-72 ,things like where is magazine release mechanism on it ? no button or even paddle is seen to confirm either of two style of magazine locking / release mechanism on it,
then they haven't shown any proper view to confirm gas operated reloading design on it (although claimed it to be short-stroke gas piston type) and finally no pics of it disassembled or its internals anywhere to see type of action on it - whether it is of a rotating bolt design or some other (saying because at once i seriously thought that it may be a tilting bolt design,something similar to FAL or SKS),last but not least no bolt hold open device (though on 7.62x39mm version that feeds from AK magazine it's understandable but what about 5.56 NATO one ?)...one thing that is kinda confirmed is reciprocating charging handle which is able to change its side via disassembly - kinda like SCAR here.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

@Johny_Baba I'm just ending what you had started. Feel free to correct me.

So few facts.
1. Almost all the stocks used on SSS's sniper rifles are either straight from a Canadian/US company named MDT (Modular Driven Technologies) or are just their knockoffs. Especially ESS, LSS and ACC stocks of MDT.

2. Actions on sniper rifles are probably one of the typical Remington 700 pattern bolt actions, plethora of which are available in US. Also is uses the common AICS magazine.

3. Same goes with trigger. Typical aftermarket trigger for Remingtons.

4. Pistol grip used on sniper rifles and all of the P-72s are also from a US company; and surprisingly its name is MDT.

5. As you mentioned, all the AK modification are actually from Texas Weapon Systems, their Dog Leg series.

6. The pistol grip used on the modified AKs is from Hogue. Again USA.

7. The folding stock in the modified AKs is in fact a Viper MOD-1, made by Strike Industries, USA.

8. The folding hinge system used on modified AKs is either the one made by Sylvan Arms, USA or it's knockoff.

All the claims of in-house development and having IPRs are more or less just bluffs. They are doing what our OFBs have done since their inception; copying and labelling StAtE oF tHe ArT. The only difference is that OFB can't even do that properly.
Problem here is not that they are copying foreign design or working in joint venture. The problem here is that they are just using our emotions and enthusiasm of indigenous stuff and #aatmanirbharbharat for their marketing. Not to mention the lack of worthy competition and level of firearm related knowledge in general populace.

So ya, cheetos.

Ah, for god's sake.....I'm tired of this cheetos and kurkure debate...
Stop being so fussy...
A new company with no prior experience in any kind of small arms manufacturing comes in and what do you think their first focus will be on......their own folding stocks.......hell no.....as far as my limited knowledge goes, all the critical systems in these rifles are their own + the most critical factor, i.e, metallurgy. So whatever stock or pistol grip they want to use on the guns is irrelevant for a company that is just a couple or few more years old (i am talking about SSSdefence and not the old SSS springs or whatever else they have).
When talking about indigenous systems people want every damn nut and bolt to be made in India and they want it right now, but i don't see just how that is going to be possible for all weapon systems we make. Even the most experienced manufacturers of these weapons, well fuck em, even china can't do that.
As for SSSdefence, cut them some slack, will ya. Let them mature in all the critical systems now and make reliable and quality weapons then we can go nit picky on these details...(and hinges, seriously???)
We actually don't have any indian companies manufacturing these accessories, do we?.....
But we surely need a private entity in this and the optics ( holo, red dot and LPVOs....) Yes we have alpha's scopes but do they have any red dot or holo designs...?
Maybe SSS will foray into this domain, or maybe they won't, doesn't matter at all to me.
If their guns pass the trials amd meet all the requirements, including the qualitative ones, good enough, and if they have the infra base for mass production and can maintain the quality in mass production, well, give em the fuckin orders....

And for those who want the P 72s, vipers and sabers to be inducted right now, have some patience guys, its not that easy either....

 

[Johny_Baba]

Do u mean to say the company is essentially copying design from foreign firms or are they buying the items and sticking it all togethers in its p72.
Cause if it's the former than their is nothing wrong with it other than being unethical.
What matters is that all it's raw material and production resources are sourced in India.

Gun design is a saturated platform so their isn't much room for design, almost every new gun will look like the previous guns.

Their American influence is understandable since they had a JV with LMT and most of their initial R&D and tetsing was done in America.

If tomorrow they can modify their design based on IA recommendations than I don't see anything wrong with it.

the second thing,bro

except P-72 all other things that they proudly claim as "theirs",either that AK SOPMOD (really ? ) Kit or those bolt action rifles Viper and Sabre etc is actually screwdrivered from maal imported from such US based companies.

It's almost like FAB defense of Israel selling us stuffs while importing it from other guy and calling it all theirs,w/o even bothering of removing OEM tags on their stuff.Khel khatam Maal hazam.

As for P-72 it's the most ambigious product from their side,many things are still unknown that i mentioned in my post above and i am really hopeful it's something of their own innovation and not some unfinished work picked up from their *partner* companies,trying to sell it here.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

'specially I don't get many things regarding to P-72 ,things like where is magazine release mechanism on it ? no button or even paddle is seen to confirm either of two style of magazine locking / release mechanism on it,

I thought these.... projections or whatever...in the trigger guard were the mag release......

 

[Lonewarrior]

Ah, for god's sake.....I'm tired of this cheetos and kurkure debate...
Stop being so fussy...
A new company with no prior experience in any kind of small arms manufacturing comes in and what do you think their first focus will be on......their own folding stocks.......hell no.....as far as my limited knowledge goes, all the critical systems in these rifles are their own + the most critical factor, i.e, metallurgy. So whatever stock or pistol grip they want to use on the guns is irrelevant for a company that is just a couple or few more years old (i am talking about SSSdefence and not the old SSS springs or whatever else they have).
When talking about indigenous systems people want every damn nut and bolt to be made in India and they want it right now, but i don't see just how that is going to be possible for all weapon systems we make. Even the most experienced manufacturers of these weapons, well fuck em, even china can't do that.
As for SSSdefence, cut them some slack, will ya. Let them mature in all the critical systems now and make reliable and quality weapons then we can go nit picky on these details...(and hinges, seriously???)
We actually don't have any indian companies manufacturing these accessories, do we?.....
But we surely need a private entity in this and the optics ( holo, red dot and LPVOs....) Yes we have alpha's scopes but do they have any red dot or holo designs...?
Maybe SSS will foray into this domain, or maybe they won't, doesn't matter at all to me.
If their guns pass the trials amd meet all the requirements, including the qualitative ones, good enough, and if they have the infra base for mass production and can maintain the quality in mass production, well, give em the fuckin orders....

And for those who want the P 72s, vipers and sabers to be inducted right now, have some patience guys, its not that easy either....

Really!? The most important thing is metallurgy! You are just lying to yourself.

Barrels are made of 416/4140 steel, heat treated to 46-48 RC range, actions-bolts are made of 416/4140/4340, heat treated in 41-40 RC range, small steel components are of S7 tool steel or 440C SS or 17-4 PH and all aluminium parts are either 6061 or 7075-T6. That's the whole f***ing metallurgy of a gun, and I barely have a 1% know how of firearms.

The heart of a precision rifle is barrel, action and trigger. That's it. And all of these seems nothing more than some off the shelf stuff, with their brand and model markings filed down.

 

[Suryavanshi]

the second thing,bro

except P-72 all other things that they proudly claim as "theirs",either that AK SOPMOD (really ? ) Kit or those bolt action rifles Viper and Sabre etc is actually screwdrivered from maal imported from such US based companies.

It's almost like FAB defense of Israel selling us stuffs while importing it from other guy and calling it all theirs,w/o even bothering of removing OEM tags on their stuff.Khel khatam Maal hazam.

As for P-72 it's the most ambigious product from their side,many things are still unknown that i mentioned in my post above and i am really hopeful it's something of their own innovation and not some unfinished work picked up from their *partner* companies,trying to sell it here.

What do u say? We tag them on Twitter through DFIs official Twitter account and ask them questions?

@LurkerBaba @ezsasa @Shaitan

We have 15k followers, anything mentioned here will carry more weight than random twitter accounts.

 

[Suryavanshi]

the second thing,bro

except P-72 all other things that they proudly claim as "theirs",either that AK SOPMOD (really ? ) Kit or those bolt action rifles Viper and Sabre etc is actually screwdrivered from maal imported from such US based companies.

It's almost like FAB defense of Israel selling us stuffs while importing it from other guy and calling it all theirs,w/o even bothering of removing OEM tags on their stuff.Khel khatam Maal hazam.

As for P-72 it's the most ambigious product from their side,many things are still unknown that i mentioned in my post above and i am really hopeful it's something of their own innovation and not some unfinished work picked up from their *partner* companies,trying to sell it here.

What do u say? We tag them on Twitter through DFIs official Twitter account and ask them questions?

@LurkerBaba @ezsasa @Shaitan

We have 15k followers, anything mentioned here will carry more weight than random twitter accounts.

 

[Lonewarrior]

the second thing,bro

except P-72 all other things that they proudly claim as "theirs",either that AK SOPMOD (really ? ) Kit or those bolt action rifles Viper and Sabre etc is actually screwdrivered from maal imported from such US based companies.

It's almost like FAB defense of Israel selling us stuffs while importing it from other guy and calling it all theirs,w/o even bothering of removing OEM tags on their stuff.Khel khatam Maal hazam.

As for P-72 it's the most ambigious product from their side,many things are still unknown that i mentioned in my post above and i am really hopeful it's something of their own innovation and not some unfinished work picked up from their *partner* companies,trying to sell it here.

P-72 is nothing more than a typical Kalashnikov with some modifications and redesigned piston system.
And btw, the stock assembly is from Magpul Masada/ Remington ACR.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

last but not least no bolt hold open device (though on 7.62x39mm version that feeds from AK magazine it's understandable but what about 5.56 NATO one ?)

Yeah my thought too....especially since they are saying that they are eying the international market.....all i can think as reasons for this are :
1: the mag interchangeability on different platforms....( Does any kind of bolt catch design without purpose-designed magazines exist...???)
2: since this is the first iteration, they may not have wanted to make it too complex and may consider it in the future.....
I wanted to ask them this, but missed the Q&A session on twitter..

 

[LurkerBaba]

What do u say? We tag them on Twitter through DFIs official Twitter account and ask them questions?

@LurkerBaba @ezsasa @Shaitan

We have 15k followers, anything mentioned here will carry more weight than random twitter accounts.

Are you interested in being part of the Twitter team ? https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/need-volunteers-for-twitter.82270/page-2

 

[ezsasa]

What do u say? We tag them on Twitter through DFIs official Twitter account and ask them questions?

@LurkerBaba @ezsasa @Shaitan

We have 15k followers, anything mentioned here will carry more weight than random twitter accounts.

a suggestion.

might as well send a questionnaire to SSS, and the responses can be posted on DFI home page.

tidbits from that “interview” can be posted on SM, with a link to DFI homepage.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

all of these seems nothing more than sime off the shelf stuff, with their brand and model markings filed down.

Don't think so,i think we must ask em

 

[Suryavanshi]

a suggestion.

might as well send a questionnaire to SSS, and the responses can be posted on DFI home page.

tidbits from that “interview” can be posted on SM, with a link to DFI homepage.

Good Idea sir.
If they come of clean than we will promote the f*uck out of them otherwise they can continue doing what they are doing.

I have been in support of this comapny since day 1, but I'm not willing to compromise.

 

[Lonewarrior]

@Lonewarrior Can you find some info on their other products too like (a)Upgrade Kit for SVD (Dragunov Sniper Rifle) and most importantly (b) P-72 rifle and variants under that line ?

'specially I don't get many things regarding to P-72 ,things like where is magazine release mechanism on it ? no button or even paddle is seen to confirm either of two style of magazine locking / release mechanism on it,
then they haven't shown any proper view to confirm gas operated reloading design on it (although claimed it to be short-stroke gas piston type) and finally no pics of it disassembled or its internals anywhere to see type of action on it - whether it is of a rotating bolt design or some other (saying because at once i seriously thought that it may be a tilting bolt design,something similar to FAL or SKS),last but not least no bolt hold open device (though on 7.62x39mm version that feeds from AK magazine it's understandable but what about 5.56 NATO one ?)...one thing that is kinda confirmed is reciprocating charging handle which is able to change its side via disassembly - kinda like SCAR here.

Sorry I just missed your post, my bad. Sure, I can.

A. Modifications of SVD.
1. A modified LSS XL Gen-2 stock from MDT in place of original. Modified because they made it foldable, the original is fixed.
2. Pistol grip is the same that's offered by MDT.
3. It's hard to say about the top rails and handguard assembly, as there aren't much media related to SSS's SVD available.

B. Now coming to P-72s.
1. The buttstock assembly is the same used on Masada/ACR. In some pics it seems like they tried to replicate that by 3D printing. Design wise, ditto.
2. In some pics the pistol grip is the one from MDT and in others it's the good ol' A2 grip of AR-15.
3. I'm pretty sure that an AK Fire Control Group is used. How? Guessing by the position of hammer and trigger pins. Also if you look closely, the fire selector switch's "wings" are reversed on both sides, a telltale sign of Kalashnikovs.
4. It uses AK mags. In some pics it's Magpul and in some it's PRO MAG (ya pro mag ).
The magazine release is same paddle type, just the paddle levers are turned 90° instead of straight. As an AK mag, there is no Bolt Hold Open.
5. The bolt carrier group seems like a modified AK one. Modifications including a new bolt carrier with charging handle and no attached bolt carrier extension or piston. This also means they changed the recoil spring assembly.
6. Not sure, but it can be a short stroke piston operated. Not a big deal, given there past experience with Dragunov which is also a SS piston rifle. The piston heads of both AK and SVD are of 10-12mm diameter, so again it can used there.
7. The upper-lower-handguard seems bit dubious to me. In some pics it looks like stamped sheet steel, milled aluminium in some and interestingly the texture in some pics resemble 3D printed plastic.

Again these are what I deduced solely from some pics. I can be totally wrong here. I'm not claiming something. Anyone can feel free to correct me.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

I don't care if they are copying foreign OEM designs as if OFB is building equipments from it's own R&D manufacturing Dhanush TAR and other AK copies.
But SSS defence should manufacture all of these equipments locally.