Small arms and Light Weapons

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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Lonewarrior

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I wonder why the Indian Army decided to go with a 7.62 NATO rifle in the first place. @Lonewarrior Would you care to shed some light??
Cheenis, killing lots of Cheenis

In the flat - mountainous region of Himalayas, especially the plateau like places in Galwan you don't have any cover so the engagement distance is not the same that you have in let's say Kashmir, where you have things like jungles, valleys; it increases. So the initial objective was as simple as shooting Chinese before they can with their 5.8x42mm rifles.

But as they realised after some times that it's way more accurate than other rifles in a platoon and almost as accurate as Dragunov DMRs the SIGs proliferated to other places like J&K too.
 

Lonewarrior

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Arre @Johny_Baba just noticed something

Remember I had mentioned that there has been a leak of TDP of SCAR and ASTR guys have most probably got their hands on it? Now it seems North Korea too found it.
IMG_20230806_173548.jpg

Almost interchangeable gas block, just with fixed sights. Same three slots in front of charging handle. Same charging handle design. Exact same way of barrel retention; three screws and plastic block. Similar ejection port and brass deflector design. Same design of mag release, circular button in square anti-bump. Selector is same too.
 

Blood+

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binayak95, Lonewarrior, Johny_Baba

I see your point, but do you actually believe that longer range will be of any real value when both the PLA and the Pakistanis have standardized on level III plate carriers across their frontline infantry units? Your regular, run-of-the-mill M80 ammunition cannot pierce a level 3 armor plate even from a mere distance of 10 meters!
So, unless the Indian Army is willing to adapt an armor-piercing version as standard issue, it'll be almost completely pointless.
In my opinion, a better option would be to adopt the approach the Americans took, i.e. increase the lethality of the existing 5.56x45 caliber rounds.
 
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binayak95

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binayak95, Lonewarrior, Johny_Baba

I see your point, but do you actually believe that longer range will be of any real value when both the PLA and the Pakistanis have standardized on level III plate carriers across their frontline infantry units? Your regular, run-of-the-mill M80 ammunition cannot pierce a level 3 armor plate even from a mere distance of 10 meters!
So, unless the Indian Army is willing to adapt an armor-piercing version as standard issue, it'll be almost completely pointless.
In my opinion, a better option would be to adopt the approach the Americans took, i.e. increase the lethality of the existing 5.56x45 caliber rounds.
The Americans just ditched the 5.56. Went for the SIG 6.8 in their new rifle.
 

Lonewarrior

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I see your point, but do you actually believe that longer range will be of any actual use when both the PLA and the Pakistanis have standardized on level III plate carriers across their frontline infantry units?? Your regular, run-of-the-mill M80 ammunition cannot pierce a level 3 armor plate even from a distance of 10 meters!!
So, unless the Indian Army is willing to adapt an armor-piercing version as standard issue, it'll be almost completely pointless.
Aaaah...thanks for this point, I kind of missed it in the previous posts.
Yup, one reason for 7.62x51mm is also overmatch in terms of armour.

There's a proverb very common in Bihar Jharkhand UP range, don't know whether you've heard it or not. It goes like "Lekha jokha thahe, to laika doobal kahe?"
It basically means sometimes it's better to go with common sense than using complex calculations. A Level III plate can stop 7.62x51mm ammo, but the problem is NIJ just tests whether there's a penetration in the plate or not...it doesn't test the energy transferred in the human body. Even if you shoot someone wearing Level III armour with x51mm at 100m, trust me he would wish he had not worn that armour and the bullet had killed him. Ribs world shatter, hydrostatic shock would tear organs, all of his holes would be leaking blood, worst case would be his lungs getting drowned in his own blood.

Also if armour becomes really that big of a concern then you can easily switch to 7.62x51mm AP rounds; we already have those.
In my opinion, a better option would be to adopt the approach the Americans took, i.e. increase the lethality of the existing 5.56X45 caliber rounds.
Arrree...American moved on from that approch. Now they're planning to field a new 6.8x51mm cartridge. A freaking 80 thousand psi cartridge
 

Blood+

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Aaaah...thanks for this point, I kind of missed it in the previous posts.
Yup, one reason for 7.62x51mm is also overmatch in terms of armour.

There's a proverb very common in Bihar Jharkhand UP range, don't know whether you've heard it or not. It goes like "Lekha jokha thahe, to laika doobal kahe?"
It basically means sometimes it's better to go with common sense than using complex calculations. A Level III plate can stop 7.62x51mm ammo, but the problem is NIJ just tests whether there's a penetration in the plate or not...it doesn't test the energy transferred in the human body. Even if you shoot someone wearing Level III armour with x51mm at 100m, trust me he would wish he had not worn that armour and the bullet had killed him. Ribs world shatter, hydrostatic shock would tear organs, all of his holes would be leaking blood, worst case would be his lungs getting drowned in his own blood.

Also if armour becomes really that big of a concern then you can easily switch to 7.62x51mm AP rounds; we already have those.
Nah, the effects would be nowhere even close to that dramatic at those extended ranges, especially if there is level IIIA soft padding underneath!!
And at any rate, why even limit yourself to just causing the enemy some discomfort when you could just adopt something akin to the M855A1 rounds, which seem to just chew through even level III+ plates at up to 150ish yards range with such ease that the plate might as well not even have been there??!!

The Americans just ditched the 5.56. Went for the SIG 6.8 in their new rifle.
Arrree...American moved on from that approch. Now they're planning to field a new 6.8x51mm cartridge. A freaking 80 thousand psi cartridge
Sorry, somehow I managed to completely forget about that, my bad.
 
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Lonewarrior

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Nah, the effects would be nowhere even close to that dramatic at those extended ranges, especially if there is level IIIA soft padding underneath!!
Trust me, no matter what soft padding you wear a ceramic plate is only going to save you from the penetration; the blunt force trauma would still be there. You'll always find a slight bulge in the opposite side of a bullet entry in ceramic plate. It's like a baseball hitting you.

There only one way of reducing this and that's using AR500 steel plates, but those are very heavy.
And at any rate, why even limit yourself with just causing the enemy some discomfort when you could just adopt something akin to the M855A1 rounds, that seem to just chew through even level III+ plates at 150ish yards range as if the plate wasn't even there??!!
Adopt M855A1 and penetrate armour at medium ranges. Or adopt M993 and penetrate armour at long ranges. You choose
 

kaboom

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Nah, the effects would be nowhere even close to that dramatic at those extended ranges, especially if there is level IIIA soft padding underneath!!
And at any rate, why even limit yourself with just causing the enemy some discomfort when you could just adopt something akin to the M855A1 rounds, that seem to just chew through even level III+ plates at 150ish yards range as if the plate wasn't even there??!!



Sorry, somehow I managed to completely forget about that, my bad.
Now a days in UK Rus conflict small arms are just used for CQB in which no doubt 7.62x51 will tear you apart mass casualties are caused by heavy weaponry and artillery.

Also plates only protect a small portion of the body .
 

Blood+

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Now a days in UK Rus conflict small arms are just used for CQB in which no doubt 7.62x51 will tear you apart mass casualties are caused by heavy weaponry and artillery.

Also plates only protect a small portion of the body .
If the firefights are indeed bound to devolve into an up-close-and-personal furball, then don't you think it makes the argument for the supposedly increased range even more irrelevant?? I mean, at such close ranges, you might as well run with a smaller cartridge. Heck, if I were to find myself in such a situation, I'd take something like the M855A1 over any 7.62 NATO round any day of the week.

Also plates only protect a small portion of the body .
Completely irrelevant.
 

binayak95

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If the firefights are indeed bound to devolve into an up-close-and-personal furball, then don't you think it makes the argument for the supposedly increased range even more irrelevant?? I mean, at such close ranges, you might as well run with a smaller cartridge. Heck, if I were to find myself in such a situation, I'd take something like the M855A1 over any 7.62 NATO round any day of the week.


Completely irrelevant.
I'd rather take a 12 gauge slug in a Benelli M104 personally for CQB, but i am kinda nuts anyway.

The 7.62x51 in the modern wonder rifles like SCAR H and the SIG have one big issue, weight and thus, lower ammo carriage by the troopers.

Otherwise its about as good as the 5.56 in the felt recoil
 

Blood+

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Trust me, no matter what soft padding you wear a ceramic plate is only going to save you from the penetration; the blunt force trauma would still be there. You'll always find a slight bulge in the opposite side of a bullet entry in ceramic plate. It's like a baseball hitting you.
I said, the effect wouldn't be as dramatic, I never said there would be no effect on that unfortunate soul that'd be at the receiving end.
There only one way of reducing this and that's using AR500 steel plates, but those are very heavy.
That I know, and I get what you're saying. But when the entire argument is based around extending the engagement range, then don't you think it'd render the issue of after-armor effects largely irrelevant, as at such distances, let's say 500 meters, the effect would be no where close to being as debilitating as it'd be if the ranges were shorter, but in that case, an armor-piercing 5.56 like M855A1 would be a lot more practical is all I'm saying.

Adopt M855A1 and penetrate armour at medium ranges. Or adopt M993 and penetrate armour at long ranges. You choose
Dude, first of all, our army does not happen to be made of clones of Carlos Hathcock, far from it. I thought it was common knowledge. You think your average rifleman is capable of accurately engaging a man-sized moving target at 600–700 meters and beyond? Then why even bother giving everyone a handcannon, which the vast majority of them will have no use for??!!
Plus, have you actually looked at the physique of the average Indian Army soldier?? Like half of them look like Grim from The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, with literal twigs for arms and virtually nothing in the way of shoulder and back muscles, and you expect them to keep using such a high-powered rifle for a prolonged period of time??
In my opinion, a much better option would have been to standardize on an improved 5.56 rifle with a dedicated armor-piercing variant as standard issue for the riflemen and adopt the SIG 716s only for DMR roles with a quality LPVO sight.

I won't even go into the whole increased weight and the resultant logistics issue.
 

Blood+

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I'd rather take a 12 gauge slug in a Benelli M104 personally for CQB, but i am kinda nuts anyway.
Ala trench guns. A good choice, not really nuts if you ask me.
The 7.62x51 in the modern wonder rifles like SCAR H and the SIG have one big issue, weight and thus, lower ammo carriage by the troopers.
That's a huge issue, especially for us considering the peckerwoods we have got for soldiers, no offense intended.
Otherwise its about as good as the 5.56 in the felt recoil
[/QUOTE]
While modern rifle designs have indeed reduced recoil, they're still nowhere close to being identical to those chambered for 5.56 NATO. I mean, those same recoil mitigation techniques are applied to the 5.56 rifles as well, aren't they??
 

kaboom

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the main reason for IA going for 7.62 for Ladakh region was distance of engagement , with longer barrel and more powerful round you can engage enemy at longer distances and engaging them does not just mean to kill them , just pin them halt their advances so that you can then target them with artillery, mortars and MGs .. that doesn't require sharpshooter skills

the situation of Ladakh is similar to the desert region of Afghanistan , the US military used to engage them and pin them down and halt their advances while the artillery , heavy weapons like grenade launchers , Mgs and air support clear them out... It was there that felt that 5.56 was not giving them that range due to which SCAR was inducted

Also plates cover only a portion of body and it is relevant as RR also uses heavy plates (3+/4) even then suffer casualties
 

Lonewarrior

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I said, the effect wouldn't be as dramatic, I never said there would be no effect on that unfortunate soul that'd be at the receiving end.
Bones shattering, heavy internal bleeding, organs tearing, blood vessels in lungs getting burst are all know issues, I'm not making them up Saar. Trust me. People have died
There is this whole field of terminal ballistics called Behind Armour Blunt Trauma (BABT)
Screenshot_2023-08-06-19-20-42-71_6bcd734b3b4b52977458a65c801426b0.jpg
That I know, and I get what you're saying. But when the entire argument is based around extending the engagement range, then don't you think it'd render the issue of after-armor effects largely irrelevant, as at such distances, let's say 500 meters, the effect would be no where close to being as debilitating as it'd be if the ranges were shorter, but in that case, an armor-piercing 5.56 like M855A1 would be a lot more practical is all I'm saying.
Well what you're saying is like a conundrum; you can use a 7.62 FMJ at long range but lose penetration or you can use a 5.56 AP but at a close range.

But what if I use an 7.62 AP?
You gave example of 500m engagement; 7.62 AP (M993) can easily penetrate 5mm of RHA steel at 500m. If it's ceramic then extend it bit more.
Dude, first of all, our army does not happen to be made of clones of Carlos Hathcock, far from it. I thought it was common knowledge. You think your average rifleman is capable of accurately engaging a man-sized moving target at 600–700 meters and beyond? Then why even bother giving everyone a handcannon, which the vast majority of them will have no use for??!!
Plus, have you actually looked at the physique of the average Indian Army soldier?? Like half of them look like Grim from The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, with literal twigs for arms and virtually nothing in the way of shoulder and back muscles, and you expect them to keep using such a high-powered rifle for a prolonged period of time??
First of all, this is not "the" physique of Indian army. You'll find a plethora of physique belonging from various different places. And as for this argument of soldier not being able to engage targets because they're not muscular...I've just one thing for you.
Also, before INSAS 7.62x51mm was the only thing we knew
In my opinion, a much better option would have been to standardize on an improved 5.56 rifle with a dedicated armor-piercing variant as standard issue for the riflemen and adopt the SIG 716s only for DMR roles with a quality LPVO sight.
Agree, can't argue there
The best solutions for us would have been to adopt a single new 6mm caliber round and replace everything.
And the second best solution would be have been to make 5.56x45mm the standard caliber but have multiple ammo for different scenarios. An extremely heavy fragmenting round to replace 7.62x39mm AKs in CI/CT ops, a regular FMJ and a lightweight steel cored for neer peer engagement; covering everything with a single caliber.

But in that case too you'd have need a handful of longer range rifles. Everyone needs. When US army faced ridgeline to ridgeline combat for the very first time in Afghanistan they had a mental breakdown. Almost everyone in the platoon had M16/4 and only a handful and that too rarely had M240s because of its weight. But the Talibans on the other hand had multiple PKMs. US Army became so desperate that they started pulling out old M14s from reserves.
I won't even go into the whole increased weight and the resultant logistics issue.
The weight increase would be an issue but not that much. Remember we're not standing on the doorsteps of complete manned - unmanned training. Earlier it would have been a pita to carry even 1000 extra rounds of 7.62x51mm but now a drone can deliver resupply to the front lines in minutes.

And as for logistics is considered, our standard MMG is in 7.62x51mm. The replacement Negev 7 is also in the same. If you see it in that way then we're actually streamlining our logistics in high altitude areas (obviously we're doing it unknowingly, but it's happening nonetheless)
While modern rifle designs have indeed reduced recoil, they're still nowhere close to being identical to those chambered for 5.56 NATO. I mean, those same recoil mitigation techniques are applied to the 5.56 rifles as well, aren't they??
It's kind of hard to describe; there are 5.56x45mm guns that like a mule and there are also 7.62x51mm guns that give a gentle shove. But ya, if it's a modern 7.62x51mm rifle like SCAR firing proper speced ammo then the recoil won't be exponentially more than 5.56x45mm. Noticeable yes, but not too much

TL;DR to this whole rant of mine

Imagine if I say I'm buying S23 Ultra to achieve maximum productivity then would you consider it a good decision or not?
But if I tell you I'll be using 2G in it, a non-fast charger and won't subscribe to any utility application; then?

This is more or less what we have done with our procurement. We identified the problem of long range engagement and we chose a very good platform to deal with it...and then we very intricately f-up every single thing. For a long time we lacked even NATO spec ammunition, we're still unable to convince our troops that they can shoot slightly more accurate if they flip up their iron sights, proper LPVO won't come atleast in this Kali Yuga, we are no where close to procure AP rounds...I guess you understood the whole problem. And how it's more of a management issue than a technical one
 

Lonewarrior

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Also plates cover only a portion of body and it is relevant as RR also uses heavy plates (3+/4) even then suffer casualties
True
Plates generally only cover the front torso and back. Optionally you can insert plates to cover your sides. But frankly that's what you need. Even this much protection is so bulky and heavy that special operation guys general don't have the rear plate for reducing weight; just front one.

As for RR suffering casualties; try to find out the level of IFAK kit we issue to our individual soldiers. The number of modern advanced tourniquets issued to each soldier.
You'll find the answer.
 

kaboom

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True
Plates generally only cover the front torso and back. Optionally you can insert plates to cover your sides. But frankly that's what you need. Even this much protection is so bulky and heavy that special operation guys general don't have the rear plate for reducing weight; just front one.

As for RR suffering casualties; try to find out the level of IFAK kit we issue to our individual soldiers. The number of modern advanced tourniquets issued to each soldier.
You'll find the answer.
I don't want to go down that rabbit hole as i know I will end up devastated
 

Love Charger

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I don't want to go down that rabbit hole as i know I will end up devastated
By your profile picture you already look devastated Bhai .
Take care. By the way what hit you that all your hair is standing up like someone from Mister Bean ?
 

kaboom

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By your profile picture you already look devastated Bhai .
Take care. By the way what hit you that all your hair is standing up like someone from Mister Bean ?
Taking too much responsibility is decremental for my health...
 

Blood+

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the main reason for IA going for 7.62 for Ladakh region was distance of engagement , with longer barrel and more powerful round you can engage enemy at longer distances and engaging them does not just mean to kill them , just pin them halt their advances so that you can then target them with artillery, mortars and MGs .. that doesn't require sharpshooter skills
Yeah, yeah, the good old Soviet doctrine, but even then, accuracy matters, as a properly drilled and trained soldier wouldn't be suppressed unless you could place your shots within a few meters of them. And besides, that's what you've got your GPMGs for!!


the situation of Ladakh is similar to the desert region of Afghanistan , the US military used to engage them and pin them down and halt their advances while the artillery , heavy weapons like grenade launchers , Mgs and air support clear them out... It was there that felt that 5.56 was not giving them that range due to which SCAR was inducted

Apples to oranges cause to my knowledge, those goat fuckers over there didn't have body armor, but the PLA troopers do.
Also plates cover only a portion of body and it is relevant as RR also uses heavy plates (3+/4) even then suffer casualties

Last time I checked, none of the PAFF fuckers was equipped with a 7.62 NATO rifle, therefore, your argument is indeed irrelevant to our discussion. If you get hit in an exposed part of your body, then the caliber likely wouldn't matter.
 

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