Small arms and Light Weapons

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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Johny_Baba

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JVPC is becoming more common with the ICG. Atleast one seaborne force was competent enough to urgently replace the WW2 era Sterling’s.View attachment 176282View attachment 176283View attachment 176284
What i found interesting is, Amogh Carbine - a conventional design weapon was readily adopted by Coast Guards and such naval units here while army vehemently rejected it and kept using Sterling ;9mm Carbine;
while a semi-bullpup Uzi style design of MSMC//JVPC that would have suited naval forces giving it compactness and so - was often pushed by the Army itself as potential replacement of Sterlings; though it is also true that now JVPC is done and passed trials and all that and yet we are not seeing any apparent replacement of Sterlings anywhere 😒 :facepalm: at maxx some supplementation by those B&T MP-9, Micro-Uzi etc in some counter terrorism and such units

in fact it seems it is various state police units and CAPF units that are adopting both Amogh and JVPC in large no.s. than the Armed Forces itself - an intended user.
same for other desi small arms like those AKs (Trichy, Ghaatak etc) and Sniper Rifles etc...
 

SwordOfDarkness

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What i found interesting is, Amogh Carbine - a conventional design weapon was readily adopted by Coast Guards and such naval units here while army vehemently rejected it and kept using Sterling ;9mm Carbine;
while a semi-bullpup Uzi style design of MSMC//JVPC that would have suited naval forces giving it compactness and so - was often pushed by the Army itself as potential replacement of Sterlings; though it is also true that now JVPC is done and passed trials and all that and yet we are not seeing any apparent replacement of Sterlings anywhere 😒 :facepalm: at maxx some supplementation by those B&T MP-9, Micro-Uzi etc in some counter terrorism and such units

in fact it seems it is various state police units and CAPF units that are adopting both Amogh and JVPC in large no.s. than the Armed Forces itself - an intended user.
same for other desi small arms like those AKs (Trichy, Ghaatak etc) and Sniper Rifles etc...
mostly cause I think it is a carbine, while army was looking more for a PDW thing like JVPC.
 

Johny_Baba

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mostly cause I think it is a carbine, while army was looking more for a PDW thing like JVPC.
well someone i know 🔨 🦈 who personally tested the JVPC complained about its buttstock a lot, citing how it is shaky, not comfortable to use and in poorly manufactured/managed weapons one can easily pull it out of the weapon itself...
Amogh's buttstock is much better in this regard, and it folds on side in case one wants compactness
so this, plus the fact that Amogh is just a mini-version of INSAS in that calibre they should have rather thought about going ahead with what was readily available than asking for something that wasn't ready yet - and now not even adopting it once it become so and asking for 5.56x45mm Carbines in place
 

Whitecollar

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well someone i know 🔨 🦈 who personally tested the JVPC complained about its buttstock a lot, citing how it is shaky, not comfortable to use and in poorly manufactured/managed weapons one can easily pull it out of the weapon itself...
Amogh's buttstock is much better in this regard, and it folds on side in case one wants compactness
so this, plus the fact that Amogh is just a mini-version of INSAS in that calibre they should have rather thought about going ahead with what was readily available than asking for something that wasn't ready yet - and now not even adopting it once it become so and asking for 5.56x45mm Carbines in place
And now we hardly see anyone talking about Amogh anymore. As I was pointing out that our NSG can be armed with integrally suppressed JVPCs, ASMIs, Amogh, TAR, Short barrel INSAS MK1C and the SSS Viper 7.62X51 thus forming a complete self reliant National Guards, people here had a completely different view. BTW what was the reason given by IA for rejecting Amogh?
 

SGOperative

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And now we hardly see anyone talking about Amogh anymore. As I was pointing out that our NSG can be armed with integrally suppressed JVPCs, ASMIs, Amogh, TAR, Short barrel INSAS MK1C and the SSS Viper 7.62X51 thus forming a complete self reliant National Guards, people here had a completely different view. BTW what was the reason given by IA for rejecting Amogh?
Bruh, Keep NSG Away -_-, if they need they will order no need to make them a dumping ground of everything indigenous, CAPFs and Police are already there and they are not a National Guard as you have mentioned.
 

Johny_Baba

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And now we hardly see anyone talking about Amogh anymore.
because as far as i know production of Amogh has mostly been ceased as JVPC arrived, some 30 to 35 thousands of some were manufactured and sold to Coast Guard, Navy, CAPFs, State Police Units etc.

and likewise it was formed based on early 2000s era GSQR and went through lots of revisions like from this one
1665931302577.png

to one with vertical grip
1665931342049.png

to current avatar
1665931396316.png


from a janky ass AK style underfolding buttstock to current side folding one, from metal magazine to polymer one and AK style bolt carrier-fire selector (i.e. basic AK configuration) to INSAS style one covering up the openings on right side - making it much sealed than before...
and yes, stupid INSAS styled dovetail rails to picatiny rail on top - even if it's a piece
^so there was improvement as they got feedback but yet it couldn't satisfy their needs; ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY WANTED TO REPLACE STERLING 9MM ;CARBINES; TO SOMETHING BETTER to start with...i have asked it before and asking it again, how come they kept rejecting Amogh or even early MSMC in this case but kept continuously using Sterlings huh

the only logical answer i get it, because they got chance to import phoren maal with B&T MP9, Micro Uzi and all such so why bother;
also logistics issues it would've caused by introduction of a new round that's not commonly shared with any other weapon in service

BTW what was the reason given by IA for rejecting Amogh?
There are lots of speculations about it,
some people say it was rejected because it was ;louder; and had high recoil issues, with army commenting that it is too powerful for the round it fires (for given size)
but same was also said about original INSAS carbine and Kalantak too...actually entire demand for 5.56x30mm Carbine started when they rejected original INSAS carbine

then they would always say reliability issues reee or whatever - but at same time it is already serving fine with said units above some of them like Coast Guard do field and operate their weapons in relatively harsher environments 🤷‍♂️ and as if phoren imported SMGs are more reliable anyway...but again complaining about reliability when they actually kept using a jam-o-matic plus widowmaker that Sterling is to start with 😒

then there was also a factor of Overpenetration (which matters a lot in CQB style roles,'specially hostages are involved)

frankly i found nothing as logical

if you want to read further from older era, refer this thread
 

Vorschlaghammer

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Did Ukraine manage to make a modernised derivative of the M2 "Ma Deuce" 50 Cal ?




BCG is compact and simpler than the M2, multi-lug rotary locking bolt means no more pesky headspacing issue. Keeps the short-recoil operation, and 2-stage feeding of the M2, all in a 29kg pkg. Can't tell if receiver is stamped or milled.
 

Johny_Baba

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DFI EXCLUSIVE FROM JOHNY_BABA! ON INSAS MK.1 AND WHERE TO FIND IT!

Everybody knows the INSAS 1B (or Mark 1B) and 1B1 of current era; but if there is 1B then 1A should've existed in past, no?

well it very well did, as evident from these pics...
1666008664761.png

1666008740833.png

1666008781526.png


...well you might be thinking 'yeah wtf such tiny matchbox sized pics'
1666008957109.png


🤷‍♂️ well what could i do these are the some of pics available on internet, mostly shared by us forum guys and knowing state of internet in past it's extremely hard to find some authentic material...

BUT WHAT IF I TELL YA, YOU CAN STILL FIND INSAS Mk.1 ?

all you have to do is,
> step 1. open google maps
> step 2. enter this co-ordinates in search
59.95406224074743, 30.31345445135361
and hit enter
> step 3. it will take you to Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineering and Communications in St. Petersburg
just go "Street View" on red marker by dropping the puppet icon there,
> step 4. turn around and viola!
1666009328055.png

near bottom of the glass cabinet having rifles inspired from Kalashnikov, you shall find your INSAS Mk.1!

This is actually located "Kalashnikov Exhibition" at upper floor of the said museum at very corner next to a certain jeep like car.

some more pics for better view,
1666009733316.png

^this is also from Street View from next position, showing off INSAS Mk.1 from that angle

apart from this if you want even more ;high kwality; view then refer this website
Artillery Museum Kalashnikov 360° panorama photo from St. Petersburg by Alexandr Suslov.

for you lazy guys here, who won't even bother to click on the link above, this view is there
1666009995597.png


i know this isn't some 4k-8k ultra HD view but compared to having little to no pics at all it is still better, isn't it ? but what about other side ?
well bad luck here, i tried my best to find it but all i could find was this snippet
1666010117396.png

again small sized but of somewhat better quality and details than previous ones

so how did i find this ? well, on this very forum itself someone i dunno remember who but either @Shaitan bhai or @sayareakd bhai or @ALBY bhai or someone akin oldies posted these two pics many times ago


using google lens it gave me this as translation, it's in chinese (traiditonal = taiwanese)

"Indian prototype rifle
India Prototype rifle
The original rifle used in India was the L1A1, the same type as the British, manufactured by the Ishapol Arsenal. Later, in response to the trend of countries around the world switching to small-caliber rifles, India also began to develop small-caliber rifles, and handed over this project to ARDE (Armament Research & Development Establishment: Armament Research and Development Corporation). After comparing ARDE's rifles with those of other countries in the world, India decided to use ARDE's products as standard weapons.
The rifle developed by ARDE is named INSAS (Indian Small Arms System: Indian Small Arms System).
In 1990, the Indian government ordered 1,800 "Zero" series (pre-production models) from the Ixapol Arsenal and started production.
The INSAS comes with a three-round firing mechanism, as well as a separate firing mode selector, but is still classified as a knockoff variant of the AK."


and another pic that was shared here was this, that proved existence of this said Mk.1 prototype of INSAS at some museum etc

although it's low kwality one taken from far at some improper lighting etc but still more than enough...

since then i was trying my best to find this on google images, bing images, yandex images and what not and finally after so much hard work i have tracked it down and sharing with you!

NOW ANYBODY FROM HERE GOING TO VISIT ST. PETERSBURG MUST HAVE TO VISIT THE MILITARY HISTORY MUSEUM OF ARTILLERY, ENGINEERING AND COMMUNICATIONS AND VISIT KALASHNIKOV EXHIBITION AT UPPER FLOOR AND GO TO RIGHTMOST GLASS CABINET AND TAKE SOME GOOD PICS-VIDS AND GODDAMN UPLOD HERE I TELL YA'LL!
also kindly ask the museum if they can be kind enough to give a proper out-of-the-box demo of this specimen of INSAS Mk.1 in ian mcollum forgotten weapons style :pray:
@nongaddarliberal
 

SKC

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DFI EXCLUSIVE FROM JOHNY_BABA! ON INSAS MK.1 AND WHERE TO FIND IT!

Everybody knows the INSAS 1B (or Mark 1B) and 1B1 of current era; but if there is 1B then 1A should've existed in past, no?

well it very well did, as evident from these pics...
View attachment 176574
View attachment 176576
View attachment 176577

...well you might be thinking 'yeah wtf such tiny matchbox sized pics'
View attachment 176578

🤷‍♂️ well what could i do these are the some of pics available on internet, mostly shared by us forum guys and knowing state of internet in past it's extremely hard to find some authentic material...

BUT WHAT IF I TELL YA, YOU CAN STILL FIND INSAS Mk.1 ?

all you have to do is,
> step 1. open google maps
> step 2. enter this co-ordinates in search
59.95406224074743, 30.31345445135361
and hit enter
> step 3. it will take you to Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineering and Communications in St. Petersburg
just go "Street View" on red marker by dropping the puppet icon there,
> step 4. turn around and viola!
View attachment 176579
near bottom of the glass cabinet having rifles inspired from Kalashnikov, you shall find your INSAS Mk.1!

This is actually located "Kalashnikov Exhibition" at upper floor of the said museum at very corner next to a certain jeep like car.

some more pics for better view,
View attachment 176580
^this is also from Street View from next position, showing off INSAS Mk.1 from that angle

apart from this if you want even more ;high kwality; view then refer this website
Artillery Museum Kalashnikov 360° panorama photo from St. Petersburg by Alexandr Suslov.

for you lazy guys here, who won't even bother to click on the link above, this view is there
View attachment 176585

i know this isn't some 4k-8k ultra HD view but compared to having little to no pics at all it is still better, isn't it ? but what about other side ?
well bad luck here, i tried my best to find it but all i could find was this snippet
View attachment 176586
again small sized but of somewhat better quality and details than previous ones

so how did i find this ? well, on this very forum itself someone i dunno remember who but either @Shaitan bhai or @sayareakd bhai or @ALBY bhai or someone akin oldies posted these two pics many times ago


using google lens it gave me this as translation, it's in chinese (traiditonal = taiwanese)

"Indian prototype rifle
India Prototype rifle
The original rifle used in India was the L1A1, the same type as the British, manufactured by the Ishapol Arsenal. Later, in response to the trend of countries around the world switching to small-caliber rifles, India also began to develop small-caliber rifles, and handed over this project to ARDE (Armament Research & Development Establishment: Armament Research and Development Corporation). After comparing ARDE's rifles with those of other countries in the world, India decided to use ARDE's products as standard weapons.
The rifle developed by ARDE is named INSAS (Indian Small Arms System: Indian Small Arms System).
In 1990, the Indian government ordered 1,800 "Zero" series (pre-production models) from the Ixapol Arsenal and started production.
The INSAS comes with a three-round firing mechanism, as well as a separate firing mode selector, but is still classified as a knockoff variant of the AK."


and another pic that was shared here was this, that proved existence of this said Mk.1 prototype of INSAS at some museum etc

although it's low kwality one taken from far at some improper lighting etc but still more than enough...

since then i was trying my best to find this on google images, bing images, yandex images and what not and finally after so much hard work i have tracked it down and sharing with you!

NOW ANYBODY FROM HERE GOING TO VISIT ST. PETERSBURG MUST HAVE TO VISIT THE MILITARY HISTORY MUSEUM OF ARTILLERY, ENGINEERING AND COMMUNICATIONS AND VISIT KALASHNIKOV EXHIBITION AT UPPER FLOOR AND GO TO RIGHTMOST GLASS CABINET AND TAKE SOME GOOD PICS-VIDS AND GODDAMN UPLOD HERE I TELL YA'LL!
also kindly ask the museum if they can be kind enough to give a proper out-of-the-box demo of this specimen of INSAS Mk.1 in ian mcollum forgotten weapons style :pray:
@nongaddarliberal
These projects have been good. Some of the prototypes also looks good but the execution and the end production line variants turns out to be problematic most of the times.
 

Johny_Baba

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DFI EXCLUSIVE FROM JOHNY_BABA! ON INSAS MK.1 AND WHERE TO FIND IT!

Everybody knows the INSAS 1B (or Mark 1B) and 1B1 of current era; but if there is 1B then 1A should've existed in past, no?

well it very well did, as evident from these pics...
View attachment 176574
View attachment 176576
View attachment 176577

...well you might be thinking 'yeah wtf such tiny matchbox sized pics'
View attachment 176578

🤷‍♂️ well what could i do these are the some of pics available on internet, mostly shared by us forum guys and knowing state of internet in past it's extremely hard to find some authentic material...

BUT WHAT IF I TELL YA, YOU CAN STILL FIND INSAS Mk.1 ?

all you have to do is,
> step 1. open google maps
> step 2. enter this co-ordinates in search
59.95406224074743, 30.31345445135361
and hit enter
> step 3. it will take you to Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineering and Communications in St. Petersburg
just go "Street View" on red marker by dropping the puppet icon there,
> step 4. turn around and viola!
View attachment 176579
near bottom of the glass cabinet having rifles inspired from Kalashnikov, you shall find your INSAS Mk.1!

This is actually located "Kalashnikov Exhibition" at upper floor of the said museum at very corner next to a certain jeep like car.

some more pics for better view,
View attachment 176580
^this is also from Street View from next position, showing off INSAS Mk.1 from that angle

apart from this if you want even more ;high kwality; view then refer this website
Artillery Museum Kalashnikov 360° panorama photo from St. Petersburg by Alexandr Suslov.

for you lazy guys here, who won't even bother to click on the link above, this view is there
View attachment 176585

i know this isn't some 4k-8k ultra HD view but compared to having little to no pics at all it is still better, isn't it ? but what about other side ?
well bad luck here, i tried my best to find it but all i could find was this snippet
View attachment 176586
again small sized but of somewhat better quality and details than previous ones

so how did i find this ? well, on this very forum itself someone i dunno remember who but either @Shaitan bhai or @sayareakd bhai or @ALBY bhai or someone akin oldies posted these two pics many times ago


using google lens it gave me this as translation, it's in chinese (traiditonal = taiwanese)

"Indian prototype rifle
India Prototype rifle
The original rifle used in India was the L1A1, the same type as the British, manufactured by the Ishapol Arsenal. Later, in response to the trend of countries around the world switching to small-caliber rifles, India also began to develop small-caliber rifles, and handed over this project to ARDE (Armament Research & Development Establishment: Armament Research and Development Corporation). After comparing ARDE's rifles with those of other countries in the world, India decided to use ARDE's products as standard weapons.
The rifle developed by ARDE is named INSAS (Indian Small Arms System: Indian Small Arms System).
In 1990, the Indian government ordered 1,800 "Zero" series (pre-production models) from the Ixapol Arsenal and started production.
The INSAS comes with a three-round firing mechanism, as well as a separate firing mode selector, but is still classified as a knockoff variant of the AK."


and another pic that was shared here was this, that proved existence of this said Mk.1 prototype of INSAS at some museum etc

although it's low kwality one taken from far at some improper lighting etc but still more than enough...

since then i was trying my best to find this on google images, bing images, yandex images and what not and finally after so much hard work i have tracked it down and sharing with you!

NOW ANYBODY FROM HERE GOING TO VISIT ST. PETERSBURG MUST HAVE TO VISIT THE MILITARY HISTORY MUSEUM OF ARTILLERY, ENGINEERING AND COMMUNICATIONS AND VISIT KALASHNIKOV EXHIBITION AT UPPER FLOOR AND GO TO RIGHTMOST GLASS CABINET AND TAKE SOME GOOD PICS-VIDS AND GODDAMN UPLOD HERE I TELL YA'LL!
also kindly ask the museum if they can be kind enough to give a proper out-of-the-box demo of this specimen of INSAS Mk.1 in ian mcollum forgotten weapons style :pray:
@nongaddarliberal
My comments on INSAS Mk.1 (compared to current variant)
first please refer the pic here,
INSAS Mk.1 Features.png

>regd 1.
i remember talking about this once here
AK style mags can be changed fast if mag release is made for that purpose.Look at magazine release of Polish Beryl.

This big paddle makes changing mags as faster as any other AR-15.
guess what our ARDE and OFB nibbas already had done it before on INSAS Mk.1A itself in past but then army asked for return of older style of magazine locking/release ? 🤷‍♂️

>regd 2. (also taking 4, 5 in account)
so most striking difference is totally different gas block, probably taken from 1A SLR or FN CAL (reminder, INSAS took so many design features from both FN assault rifles of past, CAL and FNC, as evident from MK.1A and MK.1B designs, plus there is one FN CAL showcased in Rifle Room of Ishapore Rifle Factory - further cementing the hypothesis)
1666018948784.png

this may or may not have differen gas settings on it, and judging from Muzzle Device (refer 4) that is again from later designs of FAL and FNC style muzzle devices sans any slip-rings for grenade launching; i also believe that Mk.1A did not have any intended Rifle Grenade Launching capability, also evident from lack of separate top cover locking tab on sides (at least that is what seems to me) as well as lack of longer magazine spring tab (refer 5 for locking the top cover with main receiver - some features that are needed//useful on rifle grenade launching AKs

>regd 3.
hhmm this is one of the most bugging thing i saw on Mk.1A INSAS, i mean this was actually better design than what we have on current INSAS huh, like instead of putting a mass-ful (i.e. having extra weight) front trunnion housing for gas tube they are (seemingly, to me at least) just using gas tube itself and locking it directly with front trunnion,
now the way they did it could be either of this
- using top cover and spring tension from recoil spring to keep it pushed forward, just similar to Valmet//Galil
- using spring loaded lock to retain it, not exactly same but AKS-74U kinda has this; on AKS-74U that lock is depressed using the top cover that is also hinged, here top cover seems separate
why i said this was actually better design is because it actually sheds some unnecessarly mass-weight off the centre part of rifle, is simpler; if not spring loaded then either cross-pin or AK styled locking tab that you rotate before taking off gas tube - but point is it was simplified here
ALSO they probably (seems to me) integrated entire assembly for charging handle with the gas tube itself, somewhat similar to what was there on FARA-83 of Argentina i.e. this way i believe
1666017866243.png

(FARA-83 disassembly, will talk about it later, don't mix up other parts like gas block and that muzzle device with MK.1A INSAS here, those were taken from Beretta AR-70/90 design)
too long; didn't read conclusion yada yada is, MK.1A actually had simpler design (probably better too) of Gas Tube plus Charging Handle Assembly than MK.1B INSAS and successors...how come army rejected this one...i have no idea 🤷‍♂️

>regd 4, 5
already covered

>regd 6.
read from image, nothing else

>regd 7.
🤷‍♂️ what else to say, it's signature feature of stamped sheet receiver INSASes to have their inner bolt carrier guide rails riveted to the receiver instead of how AK does it by using spot-weldings...they also riveted a separate (in-line with left side bolt carrier rail) ejector piece to the receiver - this design is straight from FNC (probably intentions in mind that if ejector needed maintenance they can just drill off those rivets and replace it with newer one...but such situation rarely arises and you can rather just hammer any deformity back to intended shape 🤷‍♂️ )

>regd 8.
read from image, seems they had different bayonet design in mind initially but reverted to what we have now

apart from all these,
- wooden furniture on INSAS ? (handguards and front grip at least - buttstock seems polymer one or also could be wooden one who knows) to be honest it looks much cool than those overly flashy orange oil-painted polymer stuff
- no spring loaded carrying handle here ? i mean it is present in those tiny pics so must be there, there also is an etching on right side of handsguards for alloting space for carrying handle rod but it seems previously it was just simple carrying handle affixed on that side of rifle, much similar to what FAL//SLR has...so...army asked for carrying handle to be spring-loaded one ? (so it snaps down on its own while not in use ?) 🤷‍♂️ this is complicating simpler things at its best...
- shape of iron sights protective 'ears' are different from current one, most likely taken from FN CAL
- no top mounted rail, not even dovetail piece; also top seems much ;flatter; than regular AK's - as if they had plans for putting a long rail of whatever kind army preferred on later versions (it is also possible that they had later era FN FNC's optical scope mount in mind that utilised entire free-flat top and affixed with front trunnion and rear iron sight's base, but it required a unique shape of notches on both sides to do so - not present here so most likely not the case)
 

Love Charger

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My comments on INSAS Mk.1 (compared to current variant)
first please refer the pic here,
View attachment 176618
>regd 1.
i remember talking about this once here

guess what our ARDE and OFB nibbas already had done it before on INSAS Mk.1A itself in past but then army asked for return of older style of magazine locking/release ? 🤷‍♂️

>regd 2. (also taking 4, 5 in account)
so most striking difference is totally different gas block, probably taken from 1A SLR or FN CAL (reminder, INSAS took so many design features from both FN assault rifles of past, CAL and FNC, as evident from MK.1A and MK.1B designs, plus there is one FN CAL showcased in Rifle Room of Ishapore Rifle Factory - further cementing the hypothesis)
View attachment 176628
this may or may not have differen gas settings on it, and judging from Muzzle Device (refer 4) that is again from later designs of FAL and FNC style muzzle devices sans any slip-rings for grenade launching; i also believe that Mk.1A did not have any intended Rifle Grenade Launching capability, also evident from lack of separate top cover locking tab on sides (at least that is what seems to me) as well as lack of longer magazine spring tab (refer 5 for locking the top cover with main receiver - some features that are needed//useful on rifle grenade launching AKs

>regd 3.
hhmm this is one of the most bugging thing i saw on Mk.1A INSAS, i mean this was actually better design than what we have on current INSAS huh, like instead of putting a mass-ful (i.e. having extra weight) front trunnion housing for gas tube they are (seemingly, to me at least) just using gas tube itself and locking it directly with front trunnion,
now the way they did it could be either of this
- using top cover and spring tension from recoil spring to keep it pushed forward, just similar to Valmet//Galil
- using spring loaded lock to retain it, not exactly same but AKS-74U kinda has this; on AKS-74U that lock is depressed using the top cover that is also hinged, here top cover seems separate
why i said this was actually better design is because it actually sheds some unnecessarly mass-weight off the centre part of rifle, is simpler; if not spring loaded then either cross-pin or AK styled locking tab that you rotate before taking off gas tube - but point is it was simplified here
ALSO they probably (seems to me) integrated entire assembly for charging handle with the gas tube itself, somewhat similar to what was there on FARA-83 of Argentina i.e. this way i believe
View attachment 176623
(FARA-83 disassembly, will talk about it later, don't mix up other parts like gas block and that muzzle device with MK.1A INSAS here, those were taken from Beretta AR-70/90 design)
too long; didn't read conclusion yada yada is, MK.1A actually had simpler design (probably better too) of Gas Tube plus Charging Handle Assembly than MK.1B INSAS and successors...how come army rejected this one...i have no idea 🤷‍♂️

>regd 4, 5
already covered

>regd 6.
read from image, nothing else

>regd 7.
🤷‍♂️ what else to say, it's signature feature of stamped sheet receiver INSASes to have their inner bolt carrier guide rails riveted to the receiver instead of how AK does it by using spot-weldings...they also riveted a separate (in-line with left side bolt carrier rail) ejector piece to the receiver - this design is straight from FNC (probably intentions in mind that if ejector needed maintenance they can just drill off those rivets and replace it with newer one...but such situation rarely arises and you can rather just hammer any deformity back to intended shape 🤷‍♂️ )

>regd 8.
read from image, seems they had different bayonet design in mind initially but reverted to what we have now

apart from all these,
- wooden furniture on INSAS ? (handguards and front grip at least - buttstock seems polymer one or also could be wooden one who knows) to be honest it looks much cool than those overly flashy orange oil-painted polymer stuff
- no spring loaded carrying handle here ? i mean it is present in those tiny pics so must be there, there also is an etching on right side of handsguards for alloting space for carrying handle rod but it seems previously it was just simple carrying handle affixed on that side of rifle, much similar to what FAL//SLR has...so...army asked for carrying handle to be spring-loaded one ? (so it snaps down on its own while not in use ?) 🤷‍♂️ this is complicating simpler things at its best...
- shape of iron sights protective 'ears' are different from current one, most likely taken from FN CAL
- no top mounted rail, not even dovetail piece; also top seems much ;flatter; than regular AK's - as if they had plans for putting a long rail of whatever kind army preferred on later versions (it is also possible that they had later era FN FNC's optical scope mount in mind that utilised entire free-flat top and affixed with front trunnion and rear iron sight's base, but it required a unique shape of notches on both sides to do so - not present here so most likely not the case)
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MisraZ

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well someone i know 🔨 🦈 who personally tested the JVPC complained about its buttstock a lot, citing how it is shaky, not comfortable to use and in poorly manufactured/managed weapons one can easily pull it out of the weapon itself...
Amogh's buttstock is much better in this regard, and it folds on side in case one wants compactness
so this, plus the fact that Amogh is just a mini-version of INSAS in that calibre they should have rather thought about going ahead with what was readily available than asking for something that wasn't ready yet - and now not even adopting it once it become so and asking for 5.56x45mm Carbines in place
Now that you've mentioned it, I do remember 2 founding members of INDRA page mentioning this. While inspecting the buttstock of a JVPC model, they managed to pull it out and were unable to put it back. So left the area leaving the weapon without buttstock.
 

Johny_Baba

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>regd 3.
hhmm this is one of the most bugging thing i saw on Mk.1A INSAS, i mean this was actually better design than what we have on current INSAS huh, like instead of putting a mass-ful (i.e. having extra weight) front trunnion housing for gas tube they are (seemingly, to me at least) just using gas tube itself and locking it directly with front trunnion,
now the way they did it could be either of this
- using top cover and spring tension from recoil spring to keep it pushed forward, just similar to Valmet//Galil
- using spring loaded lock to retain it, not exactly same but AKS-74U kinda has this; on AKS-74U that lock is depressed using the top cover that is also hinged, here top cover seems separate
why i said this was actually better design is because it actually sheds some unnecessarly mass-weight off the centre part of rifle, is simpler; if not spring loaded then either cross-pin or AK styled locking tab that you rotate before taking off gas tube - but point is it was simplified here
ALSO they probably (seems to me) integrated entire assembly for charging handle with the gas tube itself, somewhat similar to what was there on FARA-83 of Argentina i.e. this way i believe
1666017866243.png

(FARA-83 disassembly, will talk about it later, don't mix up other parts like gas block and that muzzle device with MK.1A INSAS here, those were taken from Beretta AR-70/90 design)
too long; didn't read conclusion yada yada is, MK.1A actually had simpler design (probably better too) of Gas Tube plus Charging Handle Assembly than MK.1B INSAS and successors...how come army rejected this one...i have no idea 🤷‍♂️
(forgot to mention here in original post)
another hypothesis regd gas tube arrangement on INSAS MK.1A
- that, it is taken from FN FNC (yeah like gas block of FN CAL but gas tube + regulator arrangement from FN FNC)
doesn't make sense ? lemme explain
so on FNC, on top of the rear end of handguards, there is this thumb operated selector for gas regulator - which is affixed on the gas tube itself, turning it would turn entire gas tube around, and doing so would open or close certain gas vent holes at gas block side, thus regulating the gas flow...on FNC there are two gas settings - normal and adverse
^INSAS MK.1B follows exact same thing but instead of rear it is at front, and instead of turning entire gas tube around to open/close gas ports it just turns around a separate regulator piece to do so
(then how come Belgians made FNC like this, making entire gas tube turn around instead of just a small regulator piece ? the answer is adjusting gas for adverse condition means that gun is already fired heavily and gas port would be extremely hot - so touching it would burn hands of an operator...so putting regulator at rear side where it would be at relatively cooler position is better)
1666025575882.png

1666025285953.png

(Top = FNC Gas Tube; Bottom = Gas Regulator Operation on FNC)
ok so coming back to the MK.1A INSAS, it is possible here that perhaps they are also incorporating similar gas regulator system here with a similar regulator between these marked section
1666025824381.png


^though do note this hypothesis here is least believable one even for me, as pics seem to be clear enough to point out if such configurations were there - then again these are pics from behind a somewhat glossy glass cabinet so it is possible that some minute but critical details of the rifle were not captured that well by cameras - only a closed, personal inspection could verify something here.

if not FNC chhap gas regulator setup then at best those ;notch; at end of gas tube could be for affixing upper handguards section - but i've found no pic of eariler INSAS prototype with top handguards at all - maybe even that was later era requirement by the army
 

Johny_Baba

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Now that you've mentioned it, I do remember 2 founding members of INDRA page mentioning this. While inspecting the buttstock of a JVPC model, they managed to pull it out and were unable to put it back. So left the area leaving the weapon without buttstock.
{don't want to risk any flame wars between defense groups-channels, but this has to be shared}
bhau i don't know about that because the info was first shared on 'Shatrujeet' page by O G 🔨 🦈 sirji himself (if you cannot decode emoji part you need to lurk more at older sphere of the forum), perhaps it was later picked by INDRA guys and they simply kapi-pasted it there on their page.

Now i don't want any flame wars for such trivial credit thing but in past same INDRA guys also kaapi pasted one of my explanation regarding identifying Trichy Assault Rifle from Bulgarian Arsenal Guns - by looking at flat profile of Gas Block on it and i can goddamn provide proof that it was me who first observed it and explained in public = my original post here
Well,I think I've found a visible difference between TAR (Kalashnikov Variant) and Bulgarian AK.

OFB Trichy's gas block has flat profile at front,While Bulgarian AK's gas block is not that flat at front,in fact its profile is very similar to AK-74's gas block.

OFB Trichy




Bulgarian AK (probably AR-M1 or AR-M7)
Now, Their is something to distinguish between these rifles ..
sadly image host i used for those pics died later hence it returns dead links icon but i do have original pics with me and those were these
OFB_TRICHY_Kalashnikov_Variant.png

OFB_TRICHY_Kalashnikov_Variant_2.png

OFB_TRICHY_Kalashnikov_Variant_3.png

since then lots of defense pages including INDRA have used my explanation to make those ;quick identification; images for Trichy etc 😏

so yeah, INDRA ka pata nhi muje toh O G source ne hi bataya thaa
 

MisraZ

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{don't want to risk any flame wars between defense groups-channels, but this has to be shared}
bhau i don't know about that because the info was first shared on 'Shatrujeet' page by O G 🔨 🦈 sirji himself (if you cannot decode emoji part you need to lurk more at older sphere of the forum), perhaps it was later picked by INDRA guys and they simply kapi-pasted it there on their page.

Now i don't want any flame wars for such trivial credit thing but in past same INDRA guys also kaapi pasted one of my explanation regarding identifying Trichy Assault Rifle from Bulgarian Arsenal Guns - by looking at flat profile of Gas Block on it and i can goddamn provide proof that it was me who first observed it and explained in public = my original post here


sadly image host i used for those pics died later hence it returns dead links icon but i do have original pics with me and those were these
View attachment 176657
View attachment 176658
View attachment 176659
since then lots of defense pages including INDRA have used my explanation to make those ;quick identification; images for Trichy etc 😏

so yeah, INDRA ka pata nhi muje toh O G source ne hi bataya thaa
Considering that there is an issue with buttstock of JVPC, wouldn't it be better to have a side folding stock? or can we improve the retractable buttstock?
 

Whitecollar

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Considering that there is an issue with buttstock of JVPC, wouldn't it be better to have a side folding stock? or can we improve the retractable buttstock?
MP7 never had such an issue, neither did MP5...both made way before final avatar of MSMC. I guess that DRDO may have found this out via experience of various users and may have strengthened the retainer locks. Even after IA's extensive trials including high altitude ones, they passed the weapon which simply means that either the buttstock issue may have been in few manufactured models or IA completely forgot to extend the butt while taking extensive trials.
 

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