Small arms and Light Weapons

[itsme]

What? 7.62x51mm will always kick you unless you mount a muzzle break that will concuss the guy fighting by your side.

Obviously 7.62 51 has higher recoil compared to other rounds but in our case the sig716 has a higher recoil cause of the type of ammo used. When the original Sig ammo is used the recoil is pretty much lower but, ofcourse not as low as a 556.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Obviously 7.62 51 has higher recoil compared to other rounds but in our case the sig716 has a higher recoil cause of the type of ammo used. When the original Sig ammo is used the recoil is pretty much lower but, ofcourse not as low as a 556.

Bhai what "original" SIG ammo are you referring to here ? the ones we're using is same specification as US M80 one and i believe it is also de-facto standard machine gun round there for M240 etc

just give specifications

 

[SGOperative]

Bhai what "original" SIG ammo are you referring to here ? the ones we're using is same specification as US M80 one and i believe it is also de-facto standard machine gun round there for M240 etc
View attachment 134451
just give specifications

I will give him the benefit of doubt since the rounds are being made by OFB

 

[itsme]

Bhai what "original" SIG ammo are you referring to here ? the ones we're using is same specification as US M80 one and i believe it is also de-facto standard machine gun round there for M240 etc
View attachment 134451
just give specifications

Think I read it in an article where it said "Indian jugaad helps soldiers using American rifles" or something on those lines. I am sure many members here have read it too since it was posted on this forum. The ofb rounds are made to nato 762*51 specs and are cheap but has heavy recoil than the sig made 762 nato spec ammo. Apparently the soldiers are used to the recoil now after training.

Also, even though the ammo is made to nato spec, there are other factors as well which determine the quality and performance of the ammo. And we all know the quality delivered by ofb.

Edit- found the article.

https://theprint.in/defence/army-us...into-a-mean-rifle-for-soldiers-at-loc/698631/

 

[SGOperative]

Think I read it in an article where it said "Indian jugaad helps soldiers using American rifles" or something on those lines. I am sure many members here have read it too since it was posted on this forum. The ofb rounds are made to nato 762*51 specs and are cheap but has heavy recoil than the sig made 762 nato spec ammo. Apparently the soldiers are used to the recoil now after training.

Also, even though the ammo is made to nato spec, there are other factors as well which determine the quality and performance of the ammo. And we all know the quality delivered by ofb.

I think that was article was by Print and had tons of issue to begin with.

 

[itsme]

I think that was article was by Print and had tons of issue to begin with.

Yeah, I agree. There are other points especially using the sig as a lmg with bipod but, i guess they meant DMR and not lmg. Also the videos on YouTube with civies firing sigs 716i don't seem to have very heavy recoil, atleast lesser than the recoil what we initially saw in the hands of our jawans.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The ammunition which we are using in Sig-716 is M80 ball FMJ which is the standard NATO ammunition, which weighs around 147 grains. This is the same ammo which OFB also makes, and has recently exported to USA for their civilian market.

However, if we were to use some match grade ammunition for Sigs (168,175,180 grains etc.) from say (future SSS/CBC JV plant in Hyderabad) it might improve the accuracy of the rifle (to sub-MOA level) than what is possible which standard M80 ammo. However, in that case since the bullet weight is increased, the recoil will slightly increase. That is why most 7.62*51 rifles like SCARs, HK-417, AR-10 variants (from USA civilian markets) etc. use some sort of muzzle brakes to compensate the recoil.

PS: The Print article is a third class article from an author who doesn't have any idea of small arms or OFB. For example, it refers to a verticle handgrip (from FAB defence) and bipods as jugaad.

 

[Marliii]

The sig mcx spear has a barrel of 13 inches other participants also are in the same ballpark I believe but dont know about the bullpup

 

[Whitecollar]

The ammunition which we are using in Sig-716 is M80 ball FMJ which is the standard NATO ammunition, which weighs around 147 grains. This is the same ammo which OFB also makes, and has recently exported to USA for their civilian market.

However, if we were to use some match grade ammunition for Sigs (168,175,180 grains etc.) from say (future SSS/CBC JV plant in Hyderabad) it might improve the accuracy of the rifle (to sub-MOA level) than what is possible which standard M80 ammo. However, in that case since the bullet weight is increased, the recoil will slightly increase. That is why most 7.62*51 rifles like SCARs, HK-417, AR-10 variants (from USA civilian markets) etc. use some sort of muzzle brakes to compensate the recoil.

PS: The Print article is a third class article from an author who doesn't have any idea of small arms or OFB. For example, it refers to a verticle handgrip (from FAB defence) and bipods as jugaad.

In 9 hole review's video on AK-103, Vladimir Onokoy had said a pretty interesting thing: you see when we talk about the US, you have match grade ammo that greatly increases moa accuracy...but the thing is- most countries outside US don't even have such a concept or have never heard of it/used it. Hence 7.62 AK was designed in such a way that whatever ammo is being feeded(has to comply to Intl standards atleast), the gun still maintains a respectable accuracy standard.
WRT IA, if Sig's accuracy was even remotely close to AK 203's it would suffice with them. So current ammo has no issues as of now...plus IA will get several high end optics by 2024-25 for their battle rifles anyways.

 

[Whitecollar]

Yeah, I agree. There are other points especially using the sig as a lmg with bipod but, i guess they meant DMR and not lmg. Also the videos on YouTube with civies firing sigs 716i don't seem to have very heavy recoil, atleast lesser than the recoil what we initially saw in the hands of our jawans.

You should also see their built body. Most shooters in the US have Big Chungus level body and ex military people especially train themselves even after they've retired. Having that extra weight and good amount of muscle/fat near collar bone area makes for a good natural recoil absorbant(somewhat).

Our Jawans are hardy, lean and fit. They withstand all kinds of rough and harsh terrain/weather 365 days. Obviously felt recoil will appear more for them compared to avg Big Chungus civi in US.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

 

[Whitecollar]

View attachment 134473

Wait...that MARS sight is offset...it's not alligned with iron sights

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Wait...that MARS sight is offset...it's not alligned with iron sights

Doesn’t need to be, the existing rail section probably wasn’t enough so they had to make this modification. If you’ve noticed most sights designed for the INSAS too are offset with the provision to use iron sights at the same time.

 

[Whitecollar]

Doesn’t need to be

No I know that but...who twists his rifle clockwise for secondary sights(unless he's a lefty)? Offset sights are generally secondary sights when you have a magnifying primary. Yep definitely he's a lefty then...

 

[Aditya Ballal]

No I know that but...who twists his rifle clockwise for secondary sights(unless he's a lefty)? Offset sights are generally secondary sights when you have a magnifying primary. Yep definitely he's a lefty then...

See the edit I made explaining why it’s done.

 

[Whitecollar]

Doesn’t need to be, the existing rail section probably wasn’t enough so they had to make this modification. If you’ve noticed most sights designed for the INSAS too are offset with the provision to use iron sights at the same time.

Hmmm...had to see few publically available images to know if every optic installed has an offset(these are horizontal offsets not angular ones like on phoren rifles)

Sight has offset so both Iron+sight working as collective sight system.

A modified mounting rail to mitigate any offsets and allign to iron sights(for magnifiers)

The way it was freaking meant to be

Wow...those IA bois might be having a good time Zeroing their RDS, Halos and MARS to 200+ mtr distances on INSAS...

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

In 9 hole review's video on AK-103, Vladimir Onokoy had said a pretty interesting thing: you see when we talk about the US, you have match grade ammo that greatly increases moa accuracy...but the thing is- most countries outside US don't even have such a concept or have never heard of it/used it. Hence 7.62 AK was designed in such a way that whatever ammo is being feeded(has to comply to Intl standards atleast), the gun still maintains a respectable accuracy standard.
WRT IA, if Sig's accuracy was even remotely close to AK 203's it would suffice with them. So current ammo has no issues as of now...plus IA will get several high end optics by 2024-25 for their battle rifles anyways.

In the 9 hole review's video which featured Vladimir Onokoy, the AK-103 scored a 3.2 MOA at 100 m target with sights.

Whereas, any youtube Sig-716i video from american youtube channels, you will find Sig-716 (with optics) acheiving 0.5-1 MOA(with match grade ammo) and 1-1.5 MOA with cheap ammo (M-80 ball) at 100 m.

So there is a difference in accuracy in both rifles. However, AKs from Russia always scores very high in reliability.

In a famous youtube video from Kalashnikov concern, they tested different AR series rifles, Sig-550 series, HK-416s with AK-103 in a ice torture test. Only the AK could fire reliability after taking it out from from beneath ice, whereas other rifles failed.

 

[cobra commando]

AFAIK there is no other dedicated thread for stuff like RLs, RCLs and ATGMs so this is fine ig.

On which thread can we discuss about the various RLs and Anti tank weapons of the army . Can you share some link with me ?

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/grenade-launchers-and-atgms.24027/

 

[Aditya Ballal]

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/grenade-launchers-and-atgms.24027/

It does not appear when you search in the search option. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Whitecollar]

In a famous youtube video from Kalashnikov concern, they tested different AR series rifles, Sig-550 series, HK-416s with AK-103 in a ice torture test. Only the AK could fire reliability after taking it out from from beneath ice, whereas other rifles failed.

You should also check Flannel Daddy Garand Thumb's video on extreme ice torture test...you'll be surprised how effective AKs actually are...