Small arms and Light Weapons

[Flying Dagger]

I am laughing at the fact that we are discussing about procurements of IWI Galil, Arad, Carmel for assault rifle and carbine options, when infact we are missing IWI Zion this whole time!!
I really wish instead of AK-203, this gets selected!!
View attachment 90509

It's a DI rifle we already got Sig for that.

What's their to laugh abt it anyway ? ARAD is a GP rifle accurate and more reliable.

 

[Flying Dagger]

the problem is both OFB TAR and GHATAK look like a rip off of ak-series.
even kalashinokov complained about IPR violations in 2004, but did not pursue it further because of indo-russian relations. and even india did not order for the same purposes.
indian army which is a professional army will never buy such things, which will damage the image.

that's why only police use it.

That's not the problem... There are lots of ak copies built all over the world by various nation and companies.

TAR is copy of Bulgarian Arsenal which is copy of AK while Ghatak is inspired from INSAS and AK .

What's more important is built quality and reliability of weapon other than that all major gun suppliers have ripped of things from here and there. Unfortunately we haven't been able to even choose and copy the right products properly.

 

[airstrike99]

A 30rd magazine for a 7.62x51 military service rifle? That's pretty much unheard of. Only a few novelty models exist for civilian market.

There's a reason why FAL, G3 or even modern examples like SCAR-H or SIG-716 all have only 20rd mags.

The .308 round is considerably bigger than .223/5.56x45. Putting in 10 more rounds would make the mag too long & unwieldy.

Look at this thing: How is a soldier supposed to go prone with that?

7.62 x 39 round weighs around 16.3 g ==> 30 x 16.3g = 489 g apart from mag weight
7.62 x 51 weighs around 25.4 g ==> 20 x 25.4g = 508 g
30 x 25.4g = 762g

weight is slightly an issue but not that much.

A 30rd magazine for a 7.62x51 military service rifle? That's pretty much unheard of. Only a few novelty models exist for civilian market.

that's why the requirement went from 7.62 x 51 into 7.62 x 39. hence army is opting for ak-203.

that OFB manufactured rifle (7.62 x 51 NATO) with 20 rounds might be for competition to replace SCAR-H and FALs etc. since SCAR-H is used by special forces. not by regular army.

there really isn't any other option for army except for AK-series.

however MCIWS is an alternative. but army babus killed it exactly the way they killed arjun tank. " shOULd do MOre. sHOULd BE inTERCHAngeaBLE witH boTH 5.56mm & 7.62mm but LESS weighT anD cheAP anD shOULD be EASy to ManufaCTURE THAN AK-47s"

MCIWS was about to go in mass production in 2018. killed in 2019 for russian mal along with 464 T-90S

 

[Marliii]

144k sigs and 3lakh carbines are gonna equip the bulk of the infantry.ak203 will be used mostly by support troops and most of ak203 will end up in BSF or CRPF hands.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

144k sigs and 3lakh carbines are gonna equip the bulk of the infantry.ak203 will be used mostly by support troops and most of ak203 will end up in BSF or CRPF hands.

What is the strength of our Infantry?

 

[Marliii]

7.62 x 39 round weighs around 16.3 g ==> 30 x 16.3g = 489 g apart from mag weight
7.62 x 51 weighs around 25.4 g ==> 20 x 25.4g = 508 g
30 x 25.4g = 762g

weight is slightly an issue but not that much.



that's why the requirement went from 7.62 x 51 into 7.62 x 39. hence army is opting for ak-203.

that OFB manufactured rifle (7.62 x 51 NATO) with 20 rounds might be for competition to replace SCAR-H and FALs etc. since SCAR-H is used by special forces. not by regular army.

there really isn't any other option for army except for AK-series.

however MCIWS is an alternative. but army babus killed it exactly the way they killed arjun tank. " shOULd do MOre. sHOULd BE inTERCHAngeaBLE witH boTH 5.56mm & 7.62mm but LESS weighT anD cheAP anD shOULD be EASy to ManufaCTURE THAN AK-47s"

MCIWS was about to go in mass production in 2018. killed in 2019 for russian mal along with 464 T-90S

OFB guns are not even trusted by the army to equip front line soldiers so SF is almost never gonna allow it .OFB rifle gonna replace scar h is like throwing an modular rifle for a some stupid ak derivative .we have IWI ace in 7.62x39 but its costly for us

 

[Gessler]

7.62 x 39 round weighs around 16.3 g ==> 30 x 16.3g = 489 g apart from mag weight
7.62 x 51 weighs around 25.4 g ==> 20 x 25.4g = 508 g
30 x 25.4g = 762g

weight is slightly an issue but not that much.



that's why the requirement went from 7.62 x 51 into 7.62 x 39. hence army is opting for ak-203.

that OFB manufactured rifle (7.62 x 51 NATO) with 20 rounds might be for competition to replace SCAR-H and FALs etc. since SCAR-H is used by special forces. not by regular army.

there really isn't any other option for army except for AK-series.

however MCIWS is an alternative. but army babus killed it exactly the way they killed arjun tank. " shOULd do MOre. sHOULd BE inTERCHAngeaBLE witH boTH 5.56mm & 7.62mm but LESS weighT anD cheAP anD shOULD be EASy to ManufaCTURE THAN AK-47s"

MCIWS was about to go in mass production in 2018. killed in 2019 for russian mal along with 464 T-90S

The 203 was selected for one reason & one reason alone: to placate the Russian lobby.

If at all the 7.62x39 was needed, then IWI ACE-32 would probably have been a superior platform (could have been made in India by PLR systems).

 

[Aditya Ballal]

The 203 was selected for one reason & one reason alone: to placate the Russian lobby.

If at all the 7.62x39 was needed, then IWI ACE-32 would probably have been a superior platform (could have been made in India by PLR systems).

Why did we choose the AK203 though, why not the AK 15?(IK we wanted AK 103 and the Russians convinced them to choose 203, but we've made it a 103M anyway but still)
Was it cost or something else?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Why did we choose the AK203 though, why not the AK 15?(IK we wanted AK 103 and the Russians convinced them to choose 203, but we've made it a 103M anyway but still)
Was it cost or something else?

The decision process by the selection of AK203 is extremely shady, even by Indian standards. There was no tendor, no RFI, no RFP released. Around 2017, a team of 'experts' from MOD visited various army manufacturers factories around the world. They got breifed by company executives there, tested the rifles at their in-house shooting ranges, and based on that they made the decision that AK-203 will be procured. Russian's apparently showcased their other models including AK-15 too, but the expert team liked AK-203 better due to its simplicity. This weapon was to be manufactured in OFB Amethi factory, ignoring the fact that OFB has two other products in the same category in two other factories (TAR in Trichy factory, and Ghatak in Ishapore factory).

After that the contract negotiating teams of both sides met and as usual with other deals, the Russian started asking astronomical prices for the rifles. Now the Indian side is trying to reduce the price, by omitting different parts of the rifles (which may be procured later in other contracts similar to T-90 scam), such that AK-203 has watered down to AK103. To further decrease the price, we may end up with a barebone AK-47 or just a bolt carrier group and decide to go ahead with the contract.

 

[Tactical Doge]

To further decrease the price, we may end up with a barebone AK-47 or just a bolt carrier group and decide to go ahead with the contract.

LOL
Mujhse ye sab saha nahi jaata

 

[Aditya Ballal]

What sight is that on the OFB 7.62X51? The OLF Dehradun one?
Also has this gun received the new pistol grip as seen in the other INSAS MK1C AND BABY TAR.

 

[Gessler]

Why did we choose the AK203 though, why not the AK 15?(IK we wanted AK 103 and the Russians convinced them to choose 203, but we've made it a 103M anyway but still)
Was it cost or something else?

If we had to haggle & forego such things as a simple piece of metal like fire selector, I doubt we ever could afford AK-15 at the prices that Russians were willing to offer.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Few people were commenting on social media platforms about us being the only ones using standalone holographic sights on 7.62x51 rifle(Sig 716) and what a waste it is. Here is a Belgian Land Component soldier using a Scar H with UBGL and Eotech holographic sight.
I do admit an LPVO would definitely be the best case scenario.

 

[Marliii]

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Does Tombo or Alpha Technologies or any other Indian company manufacture LPVO sights?

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Does Tombo or Alpha Technologies or any other Indian company manufacture LPVO sights?

Nope, someone on this thread claimed tonbo makes thermal LPVOs but I cou find any info.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Are my eyes fooling me or are those Insas having a proper foregrip , no the jugaad one?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

 

[FalconSlayers]

I am laughing at the fact that we are discussing about procurements of IWI Galil, Arad, Carmel for assault rifle and carbine options, when infact we are missing IWI Zion this whole time!!
I really wish instead of AK-203, this gets selected!!
View attachment 90509

Difference between Zion and Arad?