Small arms and Light Weapons

[Harbinger]

On paper it is AK-203, Like the one you see on internet...
View attachment 81004

But ham aapko Haqeeqat se roobaru karate hai... This is the one Indian Army is receiving...!!!
View attachment 81006

Ak103 with makeup

 

[FalconSlayers]

@FalconSlayers ab munasib hai janab? View attachment 81007

Uncle Sam is someone I 100% agree will betray us someday, but never expected this from Russians. We all are aware USA is temporary friend of anyone but we expected long term relations with Russia, wonder if we switch to Western then their market would lose, so they should focus on building quality maal and consider India as a friend not a customer.

 

[Harbinger]

Uncle Sam is someone I 100% agree will betray us someday, but never expected this from Russians. We all are aware USA is temporary friend of anyone but we expected long term relations with Russia, wonder if we switch to Western then their market would lose, so they should focus on building quality maal and consider India as a friend not a customer.

Capitalism corrupted uncle Russia

 

[FalconSlayers]

Ak103 with makeup

Yes I feel the “M” in AK-103M is ‘Makeup’ and not ‘Modified’.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Capitalism corrupted uncle Russia

Its maathar rusha, cyka blyat.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Uncle Sam is someone I 100% agree will betray us someday, but never expected this from Russians. We all are aware USA is temporary friend of anyone but we expected long term relations with Russia, wonder if we switch to Western then their market would lose, so they should focus on building quality maal and consider India as a friend not a customer.

There is a reason Ukrainians,latvians,estonians,bulgarians never trust russians!! They are far worse in the region and their politics!! Even armenians hate them!!

 

[FalconSlayers]

There is a reason Ukrainians,latvians,estonians,bulgarians never trust russians!! They are far worse in the region and their politics!! Even armenians hate them!!

Yes, Russia betrayed Armenia during Nagorno-Karabakh conflict in the truest sense of the word Betrayal.

 

[Harbinger]

Its maathar rusha, cyka blyat.

Da, comrade.

 

[Harbinger]

Or they could've expanded the ak103 stock they already have with special forces.

 

[FalconSlayers]

This combo would have been the best.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Yes Russia betrayed Armenia in the truest sense of the word Betrayal.

Never trust anyone, hence the reason be self-sufficient!!! I keep pointing out this point for a reason why in the carbine deal, where we have to select the company which offers us the most ToT, since we need to be self-sufficient in this field within 10 years!!

 

[Harbinger]

America would treat India as just another customer but at least they won't disguise the mere business focused military relationship as a "friendship" which will stab India in back sooner than later.

 

[Harbinger]

Never trust anyone, hence the reason be self-sufficient!!! I keep pointing out this point for a reason why in the carbine deal, where we have to select the company which offers us the most ToT, since we need to be self-sufficient in this field within 10 years!!

India should involve private players in this sector if they're going to make it a homegrown industry, what kind of products are produced by the babus from ofb is no secret.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

India should involve private players in this sector if they're going to make it a homegrown industry, what kind of products are produced by the babus from ofb is no secret.

Hence the reason why, private companies needs to create JV with companies in NATO countries and if possible the same rich companies must buyout companies in non-NATO countries to gain ToT. The second you do this and lobby on your behalf with the military, you can see ofb going to erode in the future!!

 

[FalconSlayers]

India should involve private players in this sector if they're going to make it a homegrown industry, what kind of products are produced by the babus from ofb is no secret.

Problem is that the support for indigenous.

Navy has always been Pro-Indigenous.
Airforce has started being Pro-Indigenous.
Army will start being Pro-Indigenous.

Problem is the lack of support for indigenisation... There was a so called Self Embargo which in my opinion was a total political stunt. Embargo those which you build and exclude those which you want to import and give exceptional waivers for anything anytime. Embargo is imposed But then you need to follow the self embargo else I am laughing on this government for a self embargo and then finding waivers for things which you still want to import even after embargo, if you want such waivers then what is the point of an embargo imposed on yourself?

If Armed Forces think that because in USA private firms make a lot of defence equipment and ours have started doing it then we are at the same level then I can feel pity on them, if army wants an AR-15 pattern carbine, ask SSSD to develop an AR-15 carbine instead of issuing tenders for specs, specs alone don’t matter, design too matters but in other parts of the world countries lobby to make their private companies win the tender if their provided equipment qualifies al parameters else they can import, here in India we lobby to import and stay away from Indian companies.

We would have been using thousands of Arjuns but Army changed their requirements unnecessarily over time so that Arjun becomes unacceptable and T-90s are imported, same goes with their infantry rifle program, they changed their caliber requirements multiple times during development, we can make but we need people who are ready for it and hate imports. Here Indian Army purposely wants a foreign rifle to win their firearms tender while they can ask SSSD straightaway that we need AKs and ARs not CZ BREN knockoff P-72s so make it for us so that you can easily win the tender but then Army will not do it, Army can help in development of Small Arms but they don’t do it purposely so that few elites can earn kickbacks from imports and then this so called arms embargo, what happened now? They said they will get an indigenous carbine but they are inviting foreign bids too? This is just joke, even I can say I will study 12 hours a day without touching phone and then spend hours on it saying, aaj man nahi padhne ka, aaj zaruri kaam hai, ek kaam tha...

Navy is in best condition because they focussed on indigenisation and hence we are producing aircraft carriers like INS Vikrant indigenously and next INS Vishal carrier will also be built indigenously, Navy only has to float tenders to those who will construct their submarine and all of them are Indian companies.

Airforce is now focussing on indigenisation hence now they are getting well off for future but Indian army so called pride of India has always lobbied for imported maal, funny thing is that Indian helicopter service companies like Pawan Hans (which is a government PSU company) uses Airbus helicopters and not Indigenous Dhruv helos, if Civilian variant of Dhruv was made for fun then why did Government waste our taxpayers’ money on it’s development?

Indian Army uses almost half a dozen different types of red dots and holographic sights, we import EOTech 512 even though BEL Makes holographic sights indigenously, Army could have made it standard, but made a clusterfuck with infuse of multiple imported ones,

The only reason QAT got Quad NODs was because Tonbo was making it in India indigenously, if they were not making it, the MoD would not have sanctioned it’s development for use, such is our condition.

World’s best firearm makers belong to the countries where firearms are illegal to own except for a few legal civilian weapons for self defence.

If Army wanted an AR-18 battle rifle they could have asked SSSD to make an AR-18 rifle but then they want ki SSSD ko ham kyu bole? Wo nahi banaye unki galti, ham import karenge.

It is not America where if a company’s product does not qualify then it can be rejected, it is India hence if one is developing Small Arms then support it so that it can be procured instead of rejecting them and leaving them with few resources.

We have JV called PLR which hardly receives any bulk orders, they make small arms and all sorts of accessories indigenously yet are ignored.

 

[Harbinger]

Problem is that the support for indigenous.

Navy has always been Pro-Indigenous.
Airforce has started being Pro-Indigenous.
Army will start being Pro-Indigenous.

Problem is the lack of support for indigenisation... There was a so called Self Embargo which in my opinion was a total political stunt. Embargo those which you build and exclude those which you want to import and give exceptional waivers for anything anytime. Embargo is imposed But then you need to follow the self embargo else I am laughing on this government for a self embargo and then finding waivers for things which you still want to import even after embargo, if you want such waivers then what is the point of an embargo imposed on yourself?

If Armed Forces think that because in USA private firms make a lot of defence equipment and ours have started doing it then we are at the same level then I can feel pity on them, if army wants an AR-15 pattern carbine, ask SSSD to develop an AR-15 carbine instead of issuing tenders for specs, specs alone don’t matter, design too matters but in other parts of the world countries lobby to make their private companies win the tender if their provided equipment qualifies al parameters else they can import, here in India we lobby to import and stay away from Indian companies.

We would have been using thousands of Arjuns but Army changed their requirements unnecessarily over time so that Arjun becomes unacceptable and T-90s are imported, same goes with their infantry rifle program, they changed their caliber requirements multiple times during development, we can make but we need people who are ready for it and hate imports. Here Indian Army purposely wants a foreign rifle to win their firearms tender while they can ask SSSD straightaway that we need AKs and ARs not CZ BREN knockoff P-72s so make it for us so that you can easily win the tender but then Army will not do it, Army can help in development of Small Arms but they don’t do it purposely so that few elites can earn kickbacks from imports and then this so called arms embargo, what happened now? They said they will get an indigenous carbine but they are inviting foreign bids too? This is just joke, even I can say I will study 12 hours a day without touching phone and then spend hours on it saying, aaj man nahi padhne ka, aaj zaruri kaam hai, ek kaam tha...

Navy is in best condition because they focussed on indigenisation and hence we are producing aircraft carriers like INS Vikrant indigenously and next INS Vishal carrier will also be built indigenously, Navy only has to float tenders to those who will construct their submarine and all of them are Indian companies.

Airforce is now focussing on indigenisation hence now they are getting well off for future but Indian army so called pride of India has always lobbied for imported maal, funny thing is that Indian helicopter service companies like Pawan Hans (which is a government PSU company) uses Airbus helicopters and not Indigenous Dhruv helos, if Civilian variant of Dhruv was made for fun then why did Government waste our taxpayers’ money on it’s development?

Indian Army uses almost half a dozen different types of red dots and holographic sights, we import EOTech 512 even though BEL Makes holographic sights indigenously, Army could have made it standard, but made a clusterfuck with infuse of multiple imported ones,

The only reason QAT got Quad NODs was because Tonbo was making it in India indigenously, if they were not making it, the MoD would not have sanctioned it’s development for use, such is our condition.

World’s best firearm makers belong to the countries where firearms are illegal to own except for a few legal civilian weapons for self defence.

If Army wanted an AR-18 battle rifle they could have asked SSSD to make an AR-18 rifle but then they want ki SSSD ko ham kyu bole? Wo nahi banaye unki galti, ham import karenge.

It is not America where if a company’s product does not qualify then it can be rejected, it is India hence if one is developing Small Arms then support it so that it can be procured instead of rejecting them and leaving them with few resources.

We have JV called PLR which hardly receives any bulk orders, they make small arms and all sorts of accessories indigenously yet are ignored.

That lack of support comes from insecurities, they're made to believe bahar ka maal is best thus this.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Finally someone said it!!! In that case the chinese were never familiar with Bullpups and they were born and bred with AK-47 and Type-56, but overnight they switched to Type-97!!

One thing I admire about the chinkis are that they are very pragmatic approach to everything
We "could" learn


Unrelated:
Isn't 95 the standard issue
I think the Type 97 is the one chambered in 5.56 for export

 

[Flying Dagger]

I think the whole Infantry should standardize on 7.62*51 mm round only. The frontline troops have already being issued with Sigs with a total of 1.44 L coming in. This concept of frontline vs. non-frontline was done during Bipin Rawat was CDS, to save cost from importing a lot of rifles from abroad. However, with the repeat order of 72K and AK-203 deal in limbo, this frontline vs. non-frontline concept should be abolished. It will be a logistical nightmare, since we are already considering building up conventional forces against China, and troops are gradually getting de-inducted from C&I with CRPFs stepping in to fill that role.

And how they are going to handle that recoil specially in carbine version ??

Not to forget weight of ammo and magazines?

6.8 round is enough for the purpose and if not then stick to 5.56 for carbine role.

And no AKs are not bought for cost purpose but for make in India and political relationship with russia.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

And how they are going to handle that recoil specially in carbine version ??

Not to forget weight of ammo and magazines?

6.8 round is enough for the purpose and if not then stick to 5.56 for carbine role.

And no AKs are not bought for cost purpose but for make in India and political relationship with russia.

Carbine is a separate deal in 5.56 mm chamber.

There are 3 categories of soldiers:

(A) Frontline Infantry soldiers
(B)Non-Frontline Infantry soldiers
(C) Mechanized Infantry soldiers
(D) Soldiers belongs to Arty, AAC, Armoured corps, signals etc.

Original plan mooted in 2016-17 was to replace the Insas 5.56 in (A-C) with 7.62*51 mm in. Then in 2018-19, it was decied that (A) should get Sig's (as per emergency procurement) and (B,C) should get 7.62*39 mm AK-203 (JV between OFB and Russia) to reduce cost. The deal had political undertones to it. However, the cost quoted by Russian is greater than Sig's, hence the 2018-19 plan to buy a cheaper rifles falls flat on its face.

The carbine deal was always for (D) for more than a decade, and even now it stands. Nno change in that plan. It will replace existing 9mm Sterlings.

Also, 6.8 or 6.5 mm may be a good round, but IA won't adopt it in the foreseeable future. So no point in discussing that. The existing IA inventory of 5.56*45, 7.62*39, 7.62*51 and 9*19 mm will remain same for the next two decades at least.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Carbine is a separate deal in 5.56 mm chamber.

There are 3 categories of soldiers:

(A) Frontline Infantry soldiers
(B)Non-Frontline Infantry soldiers
(C) Mechanized Infantry soldiers
(D) Soldiers belongs to Arty, AAC, Armoured corps, signals etc.

Original plan mooted in 2016-27 was to replace the Insas 5.56 in (A-C) with 7.62*51 mm in. Then in 2018-19, it was decied that (A) should get Sig's (as per emergency procurement) and (B,C) should get 7.62*39 mm AK-203 (JV between OFB and Russia) to reduce cost. The deal had political undertones to it. However, the cost quoted by Russian is greater than Sig's, hence the 2018-19 plan to buy a cheaper rifles falls flat on its face.

The carbine deal was always for (D) for more than a decade, and even now it stands. Nno change in that plan. It will replace existing 9mm Sterlings.

Also, 6.8 or 6.5 mm may be a good round, but IA won't adopt it in the foreseeable future. So no point in discussing that. The existing IA inventory of 5.56*45, 7.62*39, 7.62*51 and 9*19 mm will remain same for the next two decades at least.

To handle recoil and carry that weight of mags and rifle isn't fun.

Since you are already aware 7.62 AK round ain't going anywhere so no need to have a 7.62 NATO for all.

And Sig deal was signed due to kick backs.

You said three categories then created 4..anyway..