Small arms and Light Weapons

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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Whitecollar

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This AK has more rivets than a 203. The recoil felt after C clamp pose was also more than today's modern AR platforms. I guess they'll release it for export in the US rather than pushing it to World's armies(that too at an exorbitant price).
If you don't know this, Kalashnikov really milks a lot of money off it's export products in the US. This is the reason why so many local arms manufacturers go for AK copies(PSA, Century arms, etc). So yeah, Russia isn't only milking us for the 203, it milks everyone for their "Original kalashnikov AK"
 

Marliii

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This AK has more rivets than a 203. The recoil felt after C clamp pose was also more than today's modern AR platforms. I guess they'll release it for export in the US rather than pushing it to World's armies(that too at an exorbitant price).
If you don't know this, Kalashnikov really milks a lot of money off it's export products in the US. This is the reason why so many local arms manufacturers go for AK copies(PSA, Century arms, etc). So yeah, Russia isn't only milking us for the 203, it milks everyone for their "Original kalashnikov AK"
Ak as a platform was a ahead of its time in the 50s to 70s but now its nearing its prime but it still hangs on due to its cult like following
 

Johny_Baba

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By the way, does anyone have on good authority the reason/reasoning behind painting the 1A INSAS stock & handguard in that bright high-visibility orange instead of black (like they did on 1B onwards)?
It indeed was sakht dhoop me kala hathiyar bhot garam ho jata thing, straight confirmation from my kwora writer fren (His father served in BSF, operated INSAS 1B1 so he knows that way).

🤷‍♂️ This kinda seems counterproductive now as all the replacement guns for INSAS and others coming out are...in black ? Sig-716i we purchased is totally black, JVPC for the armed forces purchased (in whatever limited numbers) is the black variant, MP-9 is black, Glock is black, and of course AK-203 will be black.

And even if weapon getting hot was a point,then they easily could've adopted sand scheme colour on INSAS for certain areas like Rajasthan,Gujarat (Kutch border) etc like they did with certain CAMO-ised INSAS in certain joint exercise...
1614495812136.png

...Then again there were black 1B1 INSAS in service which were black even in those hotter places...and all later INSAS variants like Excalibur,Mk.1C and so came out in black only.

So yeah,some things are just like that.
 

Gessler

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It indeed was sakht dhoop me kala hathiyar bhot garam ho jata thing, straight confirmation from my kwora writer fren (His father served in BSF, operated INSAS 1B1 so he knows that way).

🤷‍♂️ This kinda seems counterproductive now as all the replacement guns for INSAS and others coming out are...in black ? Sig-716i we purchased is totally black, JVPC for the armed forces purchased (in whatever limited numbers) is the black variant, MP-9 is black, Glock is black, and of course AK-203 will be black.

And even if weapon getting hot was a point,then they easily could've adopted sand scheme colour on INSAS for certain areas like Rajasthan,Gujarat (Kutch border) etc like they did with certain CAMO-ised INSAS in certain joint exercise...
View attachment 80052
...Then again there were black 1B1 INSAS in service which were black even in those hotter places...and all later INSAS variants like Excalibur,Mk.1C and so came out in black only.

So yeah,some things are just like that.
They likely didn't know that plastic polymer, like wood, doesn't get that hot in the sun.
 

Hariharan_kalarikkal

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They likely didn't know that plastic polymer, like wood, doesn't get that hot in the sun.
Doesn't firing the weapon anyway heat it up
If patrolling for long periods of time is the issue, they should have coated it with some heat retardant like automobiles
That bright orange can't be justified even for this silly notion of "kaala-garam"
 
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FalconSlayers

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Doesn't firing the weapon anyway heat it up
If patrolling for long periods of time is the issue, they should have coated it with some heat retardant like automobiles
That bright orange can't be justified even for this silly notion of "kaala-garam"
Or simply why can’t we buy small arms with sand colour for deserts And Ladakh?

CAR-816
1614500378542.jpeg

SiG-716
1614500356100.jpeg


1614500362200.jpeg
 

hit&run

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@hit&run sir pls rename this thread as Small Arms thread,

Thread name changed to fit categorisation set by International legal convention.

Definition by international legal conventions

Link:

According to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the international framework on firearms is composed of three main instruments: the Firearms Protocol, the United Nations Programme of Action to Prevent, Combat and Eradicate the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in All Its Aspects (Programme of Action, or PoA) and the International Instrument to Enable States to Identify and Trace, in a Timely and Reliable Manner, Illicit Small Arms and Light Weapons (International Tracing Instrument, or ITI), where only the Firearms Protocol is legally binding.
The ITI, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 8 December 2005, defines small arms and light weapons as:[2]
any man-portable lethal weapon that expels or launches, is designed to expel or launch, or may be readily converted to expel or launch a shot, bullet or projectile by the action of an explosive, excluding antique small arms and light weapons or their replicas. Antique small arms and light weapons and their replicas will be defined in accordance with domestic law. In no case will antique small arms and light weapons include those manufactured after 1899:
(a) “Small arms” are, broadly speaking, weapons designed for individual use. They include, inter alia, revolvers and self-loading pistols, rifles and carbines, sub-machine guns, assault rifles and light machine guns;
(b) “Light weapons” are, broadly speaking, weapons designed for use by two or three persons serving as a crew, although some may be carried and used by a single person. They include, inter alia, general purpose or universal machine guns, medium machine guns, heavy machine guns, rifle grenades, under-barrel grenade launchers and mounted grenade launchers, portable anti-aircraft guns, portable anti-tank guns, recoilless rifles, man portable launchers of anti-tank missile and rocket systems, man portable launchers of anti-aircraft missile systems, and mortars of a calibre of less than 100 millimetres.[2]
 

Johny_Baba

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They likely didn't know that plastic polymer, like wood, doesn't get that hot in the sun.
Doesn't firing the weapon anyway heat it up
If patrolling for long periods of time is the issue, they should have coated it with some heat retardant like automobiles
That bright orange can't be justified even for this silly notion of "kaala-garam"
My best assumption regarding whole scenario of Orange INSAS (and even some of the Kalashnikovs and Vz-58s of those era in Indian service were painted in that colour, pics are out there) is because they wanted to imitate colour scheme of older SLR for some reasons, dhoop me hathiyar garam hota could be a plain afterthought.

You can also see similarity in ergonomics of both weapons here,from buttstock to carrying handle to well furniture colour...
1614506967541.png

1614506977969.png


I'd even go beyond and point out that even Bayonet for INSAS (clearly copied from AKM pattern one) was made similar to SLR's for these reasons, just look at blade of the SLR's bayonet

RFI made ~8 incher bayonet for 1A SLR, year is said to be 1966, notice the semi-spear point with edge curving upwards at front
1614507827967.png


Kalashnikov pattern bayonet on AK74,notice how semi-spear point has edge that curves downwards
1614507930848.png


Finally INSAS' bayonet, clearly kopied from AK pattern bayonet BUT the blade itself is flipped around to make its spear point curve upward, just like it used to be on SLR's bayonet
1614508141936.png


Thus, INSAS was made with ideas of keeping basic familiarisation/training as similar as possible to SLR in mind, from basic controls to bayonet and of course colour, that is what i believe.
 

Gessler

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My best assumption regarding whole scenario of Orange INSAS (and even some of the Kalashnikovs and Vz-58s of those era in Indian service were painted in that colour, pics are out there) is because they wanted to imitate colour scheme of older SLR for some reasons, dhoop me hathiyar garam hota could be a plain afterthought.

You can also see similarity in ergonomics of both weapons here,from buttstock to carrying handle to well furniture colour...
View attachment 80069
View attachment 80070

I'd even go beyond and point out that even Bayonet for INSAS (clearly copied from AKM pattern one) was made similar to SLR's for these reasons, just look at blade of the SLR's bayonet

RFI made ~8 incher bayonet for 1A SLR, year is said to be 1966, notice the semi-spear point with edge curving upwards at front
View attachment 80071

Kalashnikov pattern bayonet on AK74,notice how semi-spear point has edge that curves downwards
View attachment 80073

Finally INSAS' bayonet, clearly kopied from AK pattern bayonet BUT the blade itself is flipped around to make its spear point curve upward, just like it used to be on SLR's bayonet
View attachment 80074

Thus, INSAS was made with ideas of keeping basic familiarisation/training as similar as possible to SLR in mind, from basic controls to bayonet and of course colour, that is what i believe.
The miscalculation on the part of Army/ARDE was that colour in this case of course has no bearing on ergonomics or user comfort. That, or they actually thought the Sepoys were so dumb that unless a particular part was coloured differently, they wouldn't know where to grip it and if the stock wasn't coloured, they'd shoulder the muzzle instead.

Oh and btw, the butt plate on the INSAS is also the same as on the SLR isn't it?
 

Johny_Baba

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Croatian Army SFC operative armed with Indegenously made VHS2. Looks like a cross between G36 and Famas!!
View attachment 80060
Why yes it was indeed offered to the French when they were finding a replacement for FAMAS, and finally two contenders were left,
one was HK416A5's custom variant made for French forces,named HK416F
other was of course VHS-2, which had better chance over 416F because basic handling,ergonomics etc were quite similar to older FAMAS
but then like everywhere,politikz got involved and 416F was chosen over VHS-2.

Refer to this article (do use translator for better overview) - https://web.archive.org/web/2016070...amas-le-vhs-2-croate-meme-pas-peur-des-grands
 

Gessler

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Doesn't firing the weapon anyway heat it up
If patrolling for long periods of time is the issue, they should have coated it with some heat retardant like automobiles
That bright orange can't be justified even for this silly notion of "kaala-garam"
It doesn't matter what the source of heat is - sun or function of the gun. Materials like wood & plastic are fundamentally bad conductors of heat.
 

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