Small arms and Light Weapons

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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ALBY

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My best assumption regarding whole scenario of Orange INSAS (and even some of the Kalashnikovs and Vz-58s of those era in Indian service were painted in that colour, pics are out there) is because they wanted to imitate colour scheme of older SLR for some reasons, dhoop me hathiyar garam hota could be a plain afterthought.

You can also see similarity in ergonomics of both weapons here,from buttstock to carrying handle to well furniture colour...
View attachment 80069
View attachment 80070

I'd even go beyond and point out that even Bayonet for INSAS (clearly copied from AKM pattern one) was made similar to SLR's for these reasons, just look at blade of the SLR's bayonet

RFI made ~8 incher bayonet for 1A SLR, year is said to be 1966, notice the semi-spear point with edge curving upwards at front
View attachment 80071

Kalashnikov pattern bayonet on AK74,notice how semi-spear point has edge that curves downwards
View attachment 80073

Finally INSAS' bayonet, clearly kopied from AK pattern bayonet BUT the blade itself is flipped around to make its spear point curve upward, just like it used to be on SLR's bayonet
View attachment 80074

Thus, INSAS was made with ideas of keeping basic familiarisation/training as similar as possible to SLR in mind, from basic controls to bayonet and of course colour, that is what i believe.
The orange colour was Indian invention as earlier Fals came with brown furniture and i had seen almost black Fals mostly the wooden ones. Orange colour came only in 90s.Most of the Fals we see in the bright orange colour are repainted ones as i had personally hold some of them and could see the brown colour beneath it as the top layer was worning out.
Btw insas
 

Akula

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My best assumption regarding whole scenario of Orange INSAS (and even some of the Kalashnikovs and Vz-58s of those era in Indian service were painted in that colour, pics are out there) is because they wanted to imitate colour scheme of older SLR for some reasons, dhoop me hathiyar garam hota could be a plain afterthought.

You can also see similarity in ergonomics of both weapons here,from buttstock to carrying handle to well furniture colour...
View attachment 80069
View attachment 80070

I'd even go beyond and point out that even Bayonet for INSAS (clearly copied from AKM pattern one) was made similar to SLR's for these reasons, just look at blade of the SLR's bayonet

RFI made ~8 incher bayonet for 1A SLR, year is said to be 1966, notice the semi-spear point with edge curving upwards at front
View attachment 80071

Kalashnikov pattern bayonet on AK74,notice how semi-spear point has edge that curves downwards
View attachment 80073

Finally INSAS' bayonet, clearly kopied from AK pattern bayonet BUT the blade itself is flipped around to make its spear point curve upward, just like it used to be on SLR's bayonet
View attachment 80074

Thus, INSAS was made with ideas of keeping basic familiarisation/training as similar as possible to SLR in mind, from basic controls to bayonet and of course colour, that is what i believe.
It was clearly RSS ki saazish. How many times will you guys discuss about thtat orange furniture colour?
 

Whitecollar

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Croatian Army SFC operative armed with Indegenously made VHS2. Looks like a cross between G36 and Famas!!
View attachment 80060
The recoil on this gun bro is almost none. Perfect alternative for those armies who want a no nonsense extreme condition proven bullpups. Infact, had we not inducted so many expensive TAR 21s, I'd suggest this as alternative for our forces.
 

Whitecollar

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Why yes it was indeed offered to the French when they were finding a replacement for FAMAS, and finally two contenders were left,
one was HK416A5's custom variant made for French forces,named HK416F
other was of course VHS-2, which had better chance over 416F because basic handling,ergonomics etc were quite similar to older FAMAS
but then like everywhere,politikz got involved and 416F was chosen over VHS-2.

Refer to this article (do use translator for better overview) - https://web.archive.org/web/2016070...amas-le-vhs-2-croate-meme-pas-peur-des-grands
Babaji, I would request you to shed some light on such a recoil free and flawless shooting of the VHS2. Does it incorporate Ruski's AK-107 tech for recoil reduction??
 

Johny_Baba

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Babaji, I would request you to shed some light on such a recoil free and flawless shooting of the VHS2. Does it incorporate Ruski's AK-107 tech for recoil reduction??
Nope just regular short stroke gas piston system, stoner pattern multi-lug bolt and bolt carrier (AR-18 inspired) that can be rotated 180 degree around for ejection on either side.
Recoil is there but the weapon is somewhat heavy for its configuration but balanced well on pistol grip,like FAMAS,reason it's not that severe on full auto or so.

 

Gessler

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Noice.. Is it integrally suppressed or can the suppressor be detached?

Also, Sig is manufacturing 3D printed suppressors. With detachable Baffles.. I think that would be really useful for our SOFs.
Integral.
 

Whitecollar

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Ok a dumb question here. Why did IA not opt for the INSAS bullpup mod for their 5.56mm carbine deal(had they gone indeginous way)? This could've saved a lot of money as those pesky old 1B1s could've been modified, parts overhauled and gun could've been ready much before the target date...

images (6).jpeg
 

FalconSlayers

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Ok a dumb question here. Why did IA not opt for the INSAS bullpup mod for their 5.56mm carbine deal(had they gone indeginous way)? This could've saved a lot of money as those pesky old 1B1s could've been modified, parts overhauled and gun could've been ready much before the target date...

View attachment 80126
Please don’t give them this idea, for god’s sake😖
 

Whitecollar

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Please don’t give them this idea, for god’s sake😖
Dude. It's 2021. INSAS were built in 1990s when there was next to none CNCs and 3D printers. Now OFB has them all. With minimal hand tooling and mostly machine tooling, if correctly overhauled, INSAS family can be a brutally accurate and lethal weapon. It already proved itself at battles even when it was made by incompetent douchebags at OFB, imagine what our IA could've gotten had INSAS been fully machine manufactured.
Anyways, I mentioned it in earlier post that the internal parts, barrel, receiver, etc needs to be overhauled or replaced completely. Buttstock can be better designed to accomodate shoulder even after long firing durations. The training cost would be lesser as INSAS kholna aur jodna is like daily bread n breakfast for avg IA soldier.
 

FalconSlayers

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Dude. It's 2021. INSAS were built in 1990s when there was next to none CNCs and 3D printers. Now OFB has them all. With minimal hand tooling and mostly machine tooling, if correctly overhauled, INSAS family can be a brutally accurate and lethal weapon. It already proved itself at battles even when it was made by incompetent douchebags at OFB, imagine what our IA could've gotten had INSAS been fully machine manufactured.
Anyways, I mentioned it in earlier post that the internal parts, barrel, receiver, etc needs to be overhauled or replaced completely. Buttstock can be better designed to accomodate shoulder even after long firing durations. The training cost would be lesser as INSAS kholna aur jodna is like daily bread n breakfast for avg IA soldier.
AR-15s nothing else
 

Gessler

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Ok a dumb question here. Why did IA not opt for the INSAS bullpup mod for their 5.56mm carbine deal(had they gone indeginous way)? This could've saved a lot of money as those pesky old 1B1s could've been modified, parts overhauled and gun could've been ready much before the target date...

View attachment 80126
One of the primary reasons for wanting an INSAS replacement is the terrible QC standards of OFB-made examples of 1A and (less so) 1B, 1B1. Taking existing INSAS and modifying it into a bullpup would be putting lipstick on a pig. Without fixing the underlying problems with mass production.

If the same modification were done to a INSAS 1C milled receiver, then perhaps it could be something to look at - and CME could potentially offer it in the tender, and actually hope for a fair chance. Unfortunately, given the exorbitantly high prices quoted by OFB even for stamped-receiver 1Bs, I can only imagine how much a milled 1C-based rifle would cost. Can't be under $1100-1500 per piece.

That said, if an indigenously-designed offering in 5.56x45 is what you want, there's a much better option:



Dude. It's 2021. INSAS were built in 1990s when there was next to none CNCs and 3D printers. Now OFB has them all. With minimal hand tooling and mostly machine tooling, if correctly overhauled, INSAS family can be a brutally accurate and lethal weapon.
The problem with INSAS was never design - its a good design that takes all the right lessons from AK receiver & gas system design, and abandons the bad parts of AK design (like fire selector) by adopting Western-style alternatives in their place. Design-wise, it's pretty good.

Problem was always production.

It already proved itself at battles even when it was made by incompetent douchebags at OFB, imagine what our IA could've gotten had INSAS been fully machine manufactured.
INSAS production has undergone several improvements since early 90s. 1Bs are made far more efficiently than 1As. However OFB's overhead problems have only compounded in recent times, not gotten better. So it's unlikely to translate into efficient procurement CAPEX-wise.

Anyways, I mentioned it in earlier post that the internal parts, barrel, receiver, etc needs to be overhauled or replaced completely.
At that point you're pretty much making a new rifle.

The training cost would be lesser as INSAS kholna aur jodna is like daily bread n breakfast for avg IA soldier.
By this point you must know that IA gives a rat's a$$ about such efficiency aspects wrt training & ergonomics. They proved that when they went for supplying an AK, an AR-10 and what might very well be a completely different action (like Carmel) to infantry for fulfilling role of service-issue assault weapon.
 

Whitecollar

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One of the primary reasons for wanting an INSAS replacement is the terrible QC standards of OFB-made examples of 1A and (less so) 1B, 1B1. Taking existing INSAS and modifying it into a bullpup would be putting lipstick on a pig. Without fixing the underlying problems with mass production.

If the same modification were done to a INSAS 1C milled receiver, then perhaps it could be something to look at - and CME could potentially offer it in the tender, and actually hope for a fair chance. Unfortunately, given the exorbitantly high prices quoted by OFB even for stamped-receiver 1Bs, I can only imagine how much a milled 1C-based rifle would cost. Can't be under $1100-1500 per piece.

That said, if an indigenously-designed offering in 5.56x45 is what you want, there's a much better option:





The problem with INSAS was never design - its a good design that takes all the right lessons from AK receiver & gas system design, and abandons the bad parts of AK design (like fire selector) by adopting Western-style alternatives in their place. Design-wise, it's pretty good.

Problem was always production.



INSAS production has undergone several improvements since early 90s. 1Bs are made far more efficiently than 1As. However OFB's overhead problems have only compounded in recent times, not gotten better. So it's unlikely to translate into efficient procurement CAPEX-wise.



At that point you're pretty much making a new rifle.



By this point you must know that IA gives a rat's a$$ about such efficiency aspects wrt training & ergonomics. They proved that when they went for supplying an AK, an AR-10 and what might very well be a completely different action (like Carmel) to infantry for fulfilling role of service-issue assault weapon.
Look dude I understand that MoD is not able to satisfy IA in terms of local CAPEX items(especially small arms) but all I wanted to do here was to give our indeginous weapons a chance. I havw already debated over the CQB carbine issue in my previous posts here.
The core of the problem is OFB saying "Hum nhi sudhrenge" and IA saying back "Hum bhi nhi sudhrenge".
My biggest concern is that OFB will never ever get to induct any locally made carbine once CAR 816 gets inducted. IA will simply laud Arab gun's performance at every given occasion and make it a point to place repeat orders over same.
Another thing is modularity of weapons and now due to AR 10, AK and an AR 15 platform getting inducted, there will be none. Parts availability for ARs will be another fiasco and procurement will have to be on tippy toes to import spares and maintain inventory beforehand. Unlike G3 and FAL's simplistic design and spares, Sig 716's spares will be difficult to copy and to locally create plus US may not like that very well(don't know about Arabs tho).
 
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Johny_Baba

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Buttstock can be better designed to accomodate shoulder even after long firing durations.
As far as i know,INSAS' buttstock is not a problem per se, rather it was appreciated for being comfirtable for all different creed-race-locality of soldiers in the whole army,reason why i think it should've been continued on future variants of INSAS, at least the shape,i mean look at what SoKoreans are doing on their upgraded K-2 rifles,K-2C carbines etc

Daewoo K-2 assault rifle on top, modernised K-2C1 assault rifle and K-2C carbine, notice the shape of buttstock in all variants
1614591830720.png

If we could make our own AR-style adjustable length buttstock shaped like INSAS one for our AR pattern rifles here it'd be great to bring some commonality in that ergonomic here.
 

ALBY

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One of the primary reasons for wanting an INSAS replacement is the terrible QC standards of OFB-made examples of 1A and (less so) 1B, 1B1. Taking existing INSAS and modifying it into a bullpup would be putting lipstick on a pig. Without fixing the underlying problems with mass production.

If the same modification were done to a INSAS 1C milled receiver, then perhaps it could be something to look at - and CME could potentially offer it in the tender, and actually hope for a fair chance. Unfortunately, given the exorbitantly high prices quoted by OFB even for stamped-receiver 1Bs, I can only imagine how much a milled 1C-based rifle would cost. Can't be under $1100-1500 per piece.

That said, if an indigenously-designed offering in 5.56x45 is what you want, there's a much better option:





The problem with INSAS was never design - its a good design that takes all the right lessons from AK receiver & gas system design, and abandons the bad parts of AK design (like fire selector) by adopting Western-style alternatives in their place. Design-wise, it's pretty good.

Problem was always production.
The fire selector of Ak is shit. Its nowhere smoother when compared with that of Insas. And kalashnikov lose their opportunity to modify it when they discarded western style seldctor from Ak-12.
But that doesnt mean selector of Insas is perfect.Position of R and S are easy to manipulate but manipulating it to burst fire position is not easy and you had to take almost of your palm from pistol grip. In that matter the fire selector of Sterling carbine is much easier and almost perfect in putting to all positions without taking your palm from the pistol grip.
 

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