Small arms and Light Weapons

[Flying Dagger]

Any news about the ak203 deal? There were some reports of it being signed in recent times?

Coldboxed for now I guess..

Surefire... Pretty low recoil there.

 

[Flying Dagger]

AR failure in extreme cold ... Something we may suffer ?

 

[ALBY]

SLR 1C was a good choice. However, it was rejected because of the recoil. Same was the complain in the case with Insas R-2 rifle, which prompted OFB to mount a big muzzle break.

In both cases, it can be argued that improper stance led to more visible recoil. In Insas R-2 case, there was a video where Lt. Gen Y.K. Joshi was firing from the hip, and he too complained about the recoil.

IMHO, SLR should never have been completely disbanded. Modern metallurgy with heavy barrel and accessories (like picatinny rail, M-LOK, AR style buttstock withbuffer tube etc) can transform the cold war relic into a very potent modern day firearm, similar to what DSA is doing.

Pakis have never abandonned the G-3 till now.

@Johny_Baba guys i had seen u guys asking for a modification of SLR instead of gojng for AR-10 based ones. Its true that Sig716 fires very bad with that heavy ammo, but thats only one aspect of the weapon. SLR is damn too heavy compared with any other rifle. We could argue that it will reduxe the muzzle climb or recoil. But the cost we had to pay while going on a recce or patrol is damn heavy. If you gave a soldier to choose between SLR or Ak or Sig anyone would choose the later ones. Dont think we could reduce the weight of it beyond a level even if we introduced the titanium parts. The only role SLRs are good to play is a DMR role, but since we have much better SVDs in terms of accuracy and weight i dont think its necessary. Also SLR1C had shown that shortening of barrel is not at all a feasible option.
In the 21st century We should never had gone for a weapon in 7.62 to do the role of standard weapon

 

[Gessler]

Modifying SLR for a marksman role was a sound decision when & if we couldn't afford or weren't able to acquire a modern rifle for the role. But with a modern, well-made AR-10 in hand, putting any money or effort into modifying some poorly-made SLRs (OFB quality control has always been terrible, I can't imagine them being of much use in an accurized role with the kind of inconsistency in quality) is nothing but a waste of time as far as military usage goes.

Better put that money into procuring optics & suppressors for the 716s, which can be an excellent replacement for SVD, Galatz and STAR-21's capability sets across all users. Our own M110A1 analogue.

 

[Johny_Baba]

@Johny_Baba guys i had seen u guys asking for a modification of SLR instead of gojng for AR-10 based ones. Its true that Sig716 fires very bad with that heavy ammo, but thats only one aspect of the weapon. SLR is damn too heavy compared with any other rifle. We could argue that it will reduxe the muzzle climb or recoil. But the cost we had to pay while going on a recce or patrol is damn heavy. If you gave a soldier to choose between SLR or Ak or Sig anyone would choose the later ones. Dont think we could reduce the weight of it beyond a level even if we introduced the titanium parts. The only role SLRs are good to play is a DMR role, but since we have much better SVDs in terms of accuracy and weight i dont think its necessary. Also SLR1C had shown that shortening of barrel is not at all a feasible option.
In the 21st century We should never had gone for a weapon in 7.62 to do the role of standard weapon

SIG716i has 16'' barrel and in that configuration its weight is around 3.85 Kg with an empty magazine (data straight from the Sig Sauer's website), you're comparing it with full length standard FAL//SLR that had 21" barrel and calling later one 'heavy' which is obvious, then again there indeed was one "paratrooper's variant" with folding stock and shortened barrel at 17.2" , variant 50.63 or FAL PARA that weighted around.....3.75 Kg with empty magazine so even with lighter DI gas system and yada yada AR-10 offered by SIG is slightly heavier than similar FAL variant with gas piston system, now you upgrade it with railed top cover and new gen buttstock-handguards etc then it'll be same as SIG716i in terms of weight.

Since we already make its cousin 1A SLR here i wonder how much effort it'll take to make a PARA like variant here.

Coldboxed for now I guess..

Surefire... Pretty low recoil there.

That's just reworked-remade Ultimax 100 LMG, former one was kinda crude at some places to save some chillar in manufacturing, they refined and remade it with new name.

 

[Whitecollar]

SIG716i has 16'' barrel and in that configuration its weight is around 3.85 Kg with an empty magazine (data straight from the Sig Sauer's website), you're comparing it with full length standard FAL//SLR that had 21" barrel and calling later one 'heavy' which is obvious, then again there indeed was one "paratrooper's variant" with folding stock and shortened barrel at 17.2" , variant 50.63 or FAL PARA that weighted around.....3.75 Kg with empty magazine so even with lighter DI gas system and yada yada AR-10 offered by SIG is slightly heavier than similar FAL variant with gas piston system, now you upgrade it with railed top cover and new gen buttstock-handguards etc then it'll be same as SIG716i in terms of weight.
View attachment 79788
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Since we already make its cousin 1A SLR here i wonder how much effort it'll take to make a PARA like variant here.

That's just reworked-remade Ultimax 100 LMG, former one was kinda crude at some places to save some chillar in manufacturing, they refined and remade it with new name.

Rather they could remove the old front grip and provide an M-LOC with top picatinny rail covers. Buttstock could've been modified and the frame could do better and lighter if replaced with polymer parts(perhaps like G3).
I guess the weight was the only factor why SLR held firmly while shooting and would suffer more recoil had it been made lighter.

This again proves that for all around 7.62X51 DMR role, G3 and FAL are still kings.

 

[Marliii]

7.62x51 was a bad and good idea because that round is good at long shooting but you need sights for utilising it at full potential I don't know how our troops are gonna hit targets long range with basic irons.but mostly sigs will be used in mountain ranges and it will be very good at that scenario.the 144k no. is good for that .rest of para airborne,shock troops like Ghataks need a short barreled assault rifle in 5.56 and the tender is out .the no sense deal is ak203 but people still claim sig716 was bad idea because of recoil.what to understand is that troops are using sigs like the insas.in the right shooting position the shooter will not feel uncontrollable recoil.troops will get used to that with time and the biggest idiocy is still that ak203 deal because we are just buying ak that OFB itself has cloned and one that doesn't give any advantage.if OFB cant pitch a good ak variant and need ruskies .IA carbine tender should go import because OFB cant even make an ak clone to replace our legacy ak.

 

[Whitecollar]

7.62x51 was a bad and good idea because that round is good at long shooting but you need sights for utilising it at full potential I don't know how our troops are gonna hit targets long range with basic irons.but mostly sigs will be used in mountain ranges and it will be very good at that scenario.the 144k no. is good for that .rest of para airborne,shock troops like Ghataks need a short barreled assault rifle in 5.56 and the tender is out .the no sense deal is ak203 but people still claim sig716 was bad idea because of recoil.what to understand is that troops are using sigs like the insas.in the right shooting position the shooter will not feel uncontrollable recoil.troops will get used to that with time and the biggest idiocy is still that ak203 deal because we are just buying ak that OFB itself has cloned and one that doesn't give any advantage.if OFB cant pitch a good ak variant and need ruskies .IA carbine tender should go import because OFB cant even make an ak clone to replace our legacy ak.

2 things I would like to add here dude:
1) 7.62 NATO hits back like a b!#€h. Ain't nothing gonna change that fact. At max with highest training, you can fire a 3 round burst with average accuracy. Go check out people spraying a 7.62 NATO in full auto. Even veterans like Vickers find it hard to control in full auto. Now it's true that our soldiers lack the best ergonomics and stance to effectively fire an assault rifle, but even if you fire like GARAND THUMB(youtuber), that visceral round's gonna take it's toll on the shoulders.
2) Trichy Assault Rifle is a good AK platform gun based on Arsenal's AR-M1 family. Now why the IA wanted to go for 7.62X39 over let's say 6.8mm, when they wanted a more powerful round than 5.56 and equivalent range is beyond me. When you already know that the country from where 7.62X39mm originated, has now ditched it and gone for 5.45X39mm(better than 556), why would you give your soldiers that caliber rifle??
One more thing. Both Porks and Chinks have used the 7.62mm cartridge in past. Where porks still use it cause they're broke as fork, Chinks went ahead and scrapped the whole caliber. It's not that their AK 56 was bad or anything(RR actively uses captured AK 56 in Kashmir) but they did R&D and found out what that round was lacking.

 

[Marliii]

2 things I would like to add here dude:
1) 7.62 NATO hits back like a b!#€h. Ain't nothing gonna change that fact. At max with highest training, you can fire a 3 round burst with average accuracy. Go check out people spraying a 7.62 NATO in full auto. Even veterans like Vickers find it hard to control in full auto. Now it's true that our soldiers lack the best ergonomics and stance to effectively fire an assault rifle, but even if you fire like GARAND THUMB(youtuber), that visceral round's gonna take it's toll on the shoulders.
2) Trichy Assault Rifle is a good AK platform gun based on Arsenal's AR-M1 family. Now why the IA wanted to go for 7.62X39 over let's say 6.8mm, when they wanted a more powerful round than 5.56 and equivalent range is beyond me. When you already know that the country from where 7.62X39mm originated, has now ditched it and gone for 5.45X39mm(better than 556), why would you give your soldiers that caliber rifle??
One more thing. Both Porks and Chinks have used the 7.62mm cartridge in past. Where porks still use it cause they're broke as fork, Chinks went ahead and scrapped the whole caliber. It's not that their AK 56 was bad or anything(RR actively uses captured AK 56 in Kashmir) but they did R&D and found out what that round was lacking.

Dude full auto is not usefull everyone trains soldiers to take one shot or burst shots with aim full auto is used only for suppresion and using any assault rifles in full auto is a big no.

 

[Whitecollar]

Dude full auto is not usefull everyone trains soldiers to take one shot or burst shots with aim full auto is used only for suppresion and using any assault rifles in full auto is a big no.

Yes and no. Modern assault rifles like HK 416, HS VHS2 and AK12 have made full auto fire a breeze at the firing range. People get good follow up shots and relatively good accuracy by using good hand grips and disciplined tactical shooting positions(add to it optics and precision lasers). Then again, training has a huge impact on accuracy and follow on performance.

But yeah, shooting any assault rifle in full auto is a huge NO NO when enemy location is beyond 200 mtrs. You are bound to miss a lot and it also leads to fast ammo depletion. Why IA still uses the 1shot 1kill strategy? Answer is higher number of soldiers and relatively less ammo available per soldier. You see US army, Russian troops or any 1st world army you will understand what I say.

 

[Marliii]

Yes and no. Modern assault rifles like HK 416, HS VHS2 and AK12 have made full auto fire a breeze at the firing range. People get good follow up shots and relatively good accuracy by using good hand grips and disciplined tactical shooting positions(add to it optics and precision lasers). Then again, training has a huge impact on accuracy and follow on performance.

But yeah, shooting any assault rifle in full auto is a huge NO NO when enemy location is beyond 200 mtrs. You are bound to miss a lot and it also leads to fast ammo depletion. Why IA still uses the 1shot 1kill strategy? Answer is higher number of soldiers and relatively less ammo available per soldier. You see US army, Russian troops or any 1st world army you will understand what I say.

US army also discourages full auto usage eg m16a2 they put burst fire to not waste ammo.and if use full auto even in low recoil guns you will be emptying your magazine like hell.full auto is use full in suppressing .and its not about ammo shortage.

 

[Whitecollar]

US army also discourages full auto usage eg m16a2 they put burst fire to not waste ammo.and if use full auto even in low recoil guns you will be emptying your magazine like hell.full auto is use full in suppressing .and its not about ammo shortage.

It IS about ammo shortage. You should read about the articles covering small ammo reserves with IA troops when they fought in Kargil. Right now in peace time, avg soldier carries much lesser ammo. Now with Sig 716, std box ammo carried is anywhere between 4 to 6 so max ammo is 20X6= 120 bullets per soldier. It may not be less but in a practical battle, you can't play a test match with such limited arsenal.
Now to the M16AX era: That era has passed. US DOD found a lot of data after Vietnam fiasco and decided to change their assault rifle standard immediately. This led to shorter barrel and full auto M4A1 which is the standard rifle for US troops. Standard mag cap is 30 for M4A1. So even if they carry 6 mags, thats's 180 bullets per soldier. Other factor is less weight carried by an M4 weilder making their overall battle efficiency more than an Indian soldier with SIG 716.
In Iraq alone, the amount of 5.56 bullets fired is uncountable. Plus they also used local AKs ao that's a different story altogether. All in all, US army likes to dump as much ammo down the enemy lines as possible and force the attackers to bail out of the fight. That's their strategy(and also an excuse to chicken out). Same strategy is used by Ruski troops using 5.45x39 but they take relatively higher chances than their US counterparts.

 

[Marliii]

 

[FalconSlayers]

Looks like CAR-816 deal or an export of our indigenous weapon?

 

[Whitecollar]

Looks like CAR-816 deal or an export of our indigenous weapon?

Lobbying for Car 816 my friend!!
I already said it in a previous post that the whole 1 page RFI fiasco was because Arabs were not happy with 816 not getting selected.

 

[Marliii]

Lobbying for Car 816 my friend!!
I already said it in a previous post that the whole 1 page RFI fiasco was because Arabs were not happy with 816 not getting selected.

Yup they are trying everything to get it selected

 

[Marliii]

Even the rfi of carbines seems some what advantageous to some gun makers especially to sig or IWI with their virtus sbr and carmel as both have foldable stocks something is fishy here

 

[Johny_Baba]

There are more reasons for Caracal than just Indians offering new RFI for carbines,
one primary reason is this RFI could be their last resort to sell the CAR816 in good numbers to a major army,
reason = South Koreans,

just search "Dasan DSAR15P"

Basically Caracal did a JV with Dasan Industries of SoKorea,
they pulled a choyna on them,made their own short stroke AR from CAR816 they got named DSAR-15P (P stands for Piston,of course,there also is DI version = M4 alternative from their side named DSAR-15),
in trials "local" variant got selected and an initial batch of some 1000 carbines were sent to ROK SF unit for testing-evaluation etc and if all goes "well" they'll field some 16000+ carbines by 2024

Just go there and refer to their catalog, they've got everything under one roof - AR (both DI and Gas Piston ones,in both primary calibers 5.56 and 7.62 NATO), AK and the Daewoo K-2 of course, and finally CAR816 yes!
Catalog link - http://www.da-san.co.kr/asset/images/dasan_2018.pdf
PDF Size = around 22 MB


I personally believe this is one of the reason Caracal stayed away from doing any JV with us and only pushed for CAR816 as standalone supplier, unko darr hoga ki kahi yeh bhi kaapi maar ke GPL naa maar de.

 

[Whitecollar]

There are more reasons for Caracal than just Indians offering new RFI for carbines,
one primary reason is this RFI could be their last resort to sell the CAR816 in good numbers to a major army,
reason = South Koreans,

just search "Dasan DSAR15P"

View attachment 79861

Basically Caracal did a JV with Dasan Industries of SoKorea,
they pulled a choyna on them,made their own short stroke AR from CAR816 they got named DSAR-15P (P stands for Piston,of course,there also is DI version = M4 alternative from their side named DSAR-15),
in trials "local" variant got selected and an initial batch of some 1000 carbines were sent to ROK SF unit for testing-evaluation etc and if all goes "well" they'll field some 16000+ carbines by 2024

Just go there and refer to their catalog, they've got everything under one roof - AR (both DI and Gas Piston ones,in both primary calibers 5.56 and 7.62 NATO), AK and the Daewoo K-2 of course, and finally CAR816 yes!
Catalog link - http://www.da-san.co.kr/asset/images/dasan_2018.pdf
PDF Size = around 22 MB


I personally believe this is one of the reason Caracal stayed away from doing any JV with us and only pushed for CAR816 as standalone supplier, unko darr hoga ki kahi yeh bhi kaapi maar ke GPL naa maar de.

Imagine orange stock on desi CAR 816

 

[Johny_Baba]

Imagine orange stock on desi CAR 816