Small arms and Light Weapons

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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FalconSlayers

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Facts have a different perspective tho. At the end range, both have almost same velocity but being slightly bigger dia, penetration of 54R at higher ranges should be better than 51.

View attachment 79576
But in many videos comparing 7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mmR, I saw that 7.62x51mm penetrated twice many paper playes compared to 7.62x54mmR, see this...

 

Marliii

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According to reports RFI of carbines was issued to colt also but I don't think they will participate.but if they do they might pitch m4cqbr
 

FalconSlayers

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According to reports RFI of carbines was issued to colt also but I don't think they will participate.but if they do they might pitch m4cqbr
MK18? @Johny_Baba why don’t we buy MK18 CQBR en masse in carbine competition? Or can you tell me which is the best AR-15 with best reliability, cost and accuracy? Is it CAR-816?
 

FalconSlayers

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Colt is not in a good financial position.if they participate mk18 is good choice
I don’t know what’s so special about MK18 which isn’t available in other Short Barrel Rifles, and is hyped a lot? Maybe I am not an American and in my life have seen only AK-47s😢.
 

Whitecollar

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I don’t know what’s so special about MK18 which isn’t available in other Short Barrel Rifles, and is hyped a lot? Maybe I am not an American and in my life have seen only AK-47s😢.
Always shouted Cyka Blyat and shot your reliable AK?
MK18 cost vs Car 816 cost? Which one has higher leverage?? From thr L1 bidding alone, I guess Arabs have won this carbine deal. We can always discuss at lengths about desi videsi carbines but at the end, Customer(IA) is the king.
 

FalconSlayers

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Colt is not in a good financial position.if they participate mk18 is good choice
But anyday, I will say go for IWI Arad, because we have the infrastructure for its production ready, are being already produced in India, have an 11.5” Barrel which has a better dwell time compared to 10.3” MK18 or 10.5” AR-15s you typically find, plus the 11.5” Arad has comparitively better muzzle velocity and stopping power along with accuracy at 200m (Army’s requirement) compared to 10.3” MK18 or 10.5” AR-15s you typically find. And the 11.5” Arad is exactly 800mm long which is what Army wants, no more than 800mm long with stock extended.

But I’ve heard that CAR-816 is the most reliable AR-15 out there because it’s designers are the ones who made both HK-416 and SiG-516 and later made a better CAR-816, but then IWI Arad is very lighter compared to CAR-816, a CAR-816 10.5” Costs $1,849 while a Daniel Defence MK18 CQBR costs $1,890 that’s a difference of $40 when buying en masse.

While no data on what is the price of IWI Arad, but Arad’s accessories are already being produced here so import of them will not be an issue.
1614175019207.jpeg
 

Johny_Baba

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MK18? @Johny_Baba why don’t we buy MK18 CQBR en masse in carbine competition? Or can you tell me which is the best AR-15 with best reliability, cost and accuracy? Is it CAR-816?
Well all i can answer at this moment is,
Colt was just bought by Czech Arms of Czech Republic this month only, so maybe given to their financial struggling and buyout by a european competitor it is wiser that we do not go Colt way at this moment.

in case we still get a reply from Colt remember Czech Arms was the one that offered us both older CZ805 'Bren' and CZ-807 (that later resulted in 'Bren 2') for our previous RFIs, 'specially they hecking developed a modular version of 805 with caliber conversion feature (5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm) i.e. Cz-807 for us in reply of that particular RFI with whole 'modular riphul' thing but we kicked whole thing outta window...
Even in past around 2004 or 2007 (kinda forget the exact year but that timeframe yes) they offered us their "Lada" assault rifle as potential replacement for INSAS = This one
1614175143513.png

basically this rifle but with rails and stuff,as per above configuration

obviously we rejected it

thus given previous experiences with us Indians they might not show any interest in this "NEW" RFI thingy i assume 😪, and we aren't in position of blaming them for anything either...this is our collective karma for treating a potential supplier this way that previously sold us tonnes of Vz-58 when it used to be Czechslovakia and run by *ahem* "socialist governments"
 

FalconSlayers

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Well all i can answer at this moment is,
Colt was just bought by Czech Arms of Czech Republic this month only, so maybe given to their financial struggling and buyout by a european competitor it is wiser that we do not go Colt way at this moment.

in case we still get a reply from Colt remember Czech Arms was the one that offered us both older CZ805 'Bren' and CZ-807 (that later resulted in 'Bren 2') for our previous RFIs, 'specially they hecking developed a modular version of 805 with caliber conversion feature (5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm) i.e. Cz-807 for us in reply of that particular RFI with whole 'modular riphul' thing but we kicked whole thing outta window...
Even in past around 2004 or 2007 (kinda forget the exact year but that timeframe yes) they offered us their "Lada" assault rifle as potential replacement for INSAS = This one
View attachment 79596
basically this rifle but with rails and stuff,as per above configuration

obviously we rejected it

thus given previous experiences with us Indians they might not show any interest in this "NEW" RFI thingy i assume 😪, and we aren't in position of blaming them for anything either...this is our collective karma for treating a potential supplier this way that previously sold us tonnes of Vz-58 when it used to be Czechslovakia and run by *ahem* "socialist governments"
Why do people use snoring emoji 😪 by mistaking it for being that of sad emoji😢?
 

Johny_Baba

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Whitecollar

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But in many videos comparing 7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mmR, I saw that 7.62x51mm penetrated twice many paper playes compared to 7.62x54mmR, see this...

Okay so sorry I couldn't respond to your argument. I saw the video closely and this is what I could make out.
1. Man used Army surplus 7.62X54R. Last any army used that ammo was in 70s. So, you can very well imagine the condition of pellets and powders inside the casing.
2. This was a continuous penetration test. Being longer in size compared to 7.62X51, after several impacts, yaw creeps in much before causing it to tumble but since it can't(plate after plate), it starts sqeezing the lead fillings and becomes thinner faster. After the rear bends significantly, bullet can no longer continue to penetrate, loses energy and just stops.
The point I had earlier tried to make was single impact on surface after full range rather than this continuous impact test.
 

Gessler

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MK18? @Johny_Baba why don’t we buy MK18 CQBR en masse in carbine competition? Or can you tell me which is the best AR-15 with best reliability, cost and accuracy? Is it CAR-816?
The only "MK18" trademarked by a company and available on market is from Daniel Defense, not Colt. Colt does have CQBR-pattern rifles they can offer if they want, but they're not called Mk18 on the market.

As of why we don't buy this or that - remember that its the competition & commercial bidding process that decides L-1, we have no way of knowing how much each bidder is going to tag per-unit cost of their offering at, so no way of knowing who's going to win. No one expected SIG to offer $990 a piece for the 716s, everyone thought IWI was going to win.

Any AR-15 made by a good company with the same type of gas system and same overall features of BCG (extractors etc.) will be roughly similar in terms of reliability & accuracy. Cost like I said is an arbitrary factor that any company can change at the last minute in order to grab the deal by undercutting competition. As such the retail shelf prices of said weapons on civilian market are not good markers to go on, they won't be the same in the competition.

A costlier gun on market may turn out cheaper in the competition if the company thinks they can afford to sell with a lesser profit margin - in the hope of further orders or foothold in Indian market. It becomes a strategic decision on the part of management.

But broadly, I will give you these markers to go on with regard to the advantages of two major variables in AR-15 design:

Gas system
Direct Impingement: broadly better accuracy & slightly lesser felt recoil & muzzle flip (no piston mass moving back & forth), weapon can be overall lighter & cheaper.
Short-stroke Piston: tolerates a much wider range of ammo types (even badly-made ones) by reducing the margin of variance ammo exerts on effective gas cycling, can run better with all types of suppressors, again by reducing variance exerted on cycling, can keep the chamber clean(er) for longer, requiring less cleaning/maintenance of chamber.

Barrel
Carbon steel/Chromoly: tolerates bad/high-pressure ammo better, is more durable/stronger than other barrel materials, lends itself very well to accuracy. Can be lighter.
Stainless steel: more resistant to rusting & corrosion than carbon steel, can tolerate varied environmental conditions much better. Better potential for accuracy than chrome-lined.
Chrome-lined: Even more resistant to rust/corrosion and more tolerant of environment than Stainless steel, can make the inside of barrel potentially maintenance-free in most conditions. Not the best choice for accuracy.

Note that all the advantages of one translate into disadvantages for other (comparatively).
 

Whitecollar

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We should fight Belgium then !
You know, I had read somewhere and even saw a German WW2 film where the antagonist literally prooved why their attach on Poland was "justified".
You see, before Germany, there werw small factions called Saxony, Bavaria, Hannover and a bigger Austria. In middle ages, Polish army(Prussians) heavily supported by Teutons(Romans), marched onto a war against all these 4 factions. This war was called Seven Weeks War. Many german soldiers were killed and their women and children were made slaves. This also led to Half of Germany getting captured by Polish.
Those who saw this wanted revenge and when Germany rose to power, Hitler made sure Poland was attacked and made powerless inorder to show them how Germany had felt in theit previous war.

The world always paints things the way they want "Holy Roman Empire"...my a#$.
Now I am in no way justifying what Germany did thereafter, but that's a fact. Similar case with Belgium. Those who were butchers and killers now make sweet chocolate and play football.
"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely". Guess these countries couldn't digest "power" when they had it.
 

Marliii

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Any news about the ak203 deal? There were some reports of it being signed in recent times?
 

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