Small arms and Light Weapons

[Vishalreddy3]

When will we fucking learn????? BETTER go with Israeli and American one if western products are required!!!! The whole EU is under the guise of China and trump has learnt it.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Definition of screwdriver giri is literally stupid... When the discussion is abt Galil Ace vs Russian AK.

Definition cannot be stupid just because it is inconvenient to you. Assembling a rifle from knocked down parts kit requires the use of screw driver. Hence the term screw driver giri. It does not require any transfer of IPR.
Secondly, there was no official discussion about Galil from MOD standpoint. Since AK-203 was a political deal, it's future was bound to be uncertain just like FGFA and Kamov 200. Galil Ace was brought up by some members like yourself, as an alternative to AK-203. However, the GOI has already made a import negative list which includes 7.62*39 mm caliber assault rifle. So, if the AK-203 deal is formally cancelled or fails to materialize before December 2021, only indigenous rifles will be considered like Ghatak, TAR, MCIWS, SSS Defence etc. No more foreign imports after that.

You shouldn't have brought the Russian AEK 971 in discussion as we don't own it's IPR either.

Where have I bought AEK 971 in my previous posts in this thread?

Instead of singing same ridiculous song why Galil wasn't adopted... By Israel army in bulk you should see why it's being adopted by Viets to India .

Because that is an extremely valid argument, which you are conveniently overlooking. Whenever any Indian company (like DRDO, BF etc.) wants to sell any arms product to a foreign nation. The first question they ask is whether it is adopted/rejected by our armed forces and law enforcement. Now, why won't we apply the same yardstick to Galil?
Also, Vietnam has no local alternatives to Galil. Vietnam army is also not really a role model for Indian armed forces. We have a much bigger defence budget and weapons development than them.

Israel got American rifles for free as aid they even cancelled their homegrown aircraft project and sold it to Chinese.. (J-10) . It was all about Cost.

Please tell me are the Israelis gifting us the Galil for free? If that was the case, I would gladly say please drop any weapons development and adopt the Galil en-masse. On the contrary, they are asking $1600 dollars for each rifle. Hence Galil Ace provides no cost advantage to us, and on top of that kills any small arms development in India, because at a minimum 6.5 lacs are projected for just army and more for paramilitary and police forces.

Then they moved on to TAVOR bullpup rifle. But Galil Ace kept evolving and they did used it in limited numbers while it is exported allover the world successfully.

This is an interesting point. Now when the Americans were no longer supplying the M-16, why did they move to Tavor, which is an unconventional bullpup design, rather than ever evolving Galil? Why was modernized Galil overlooked and Tavor inducted in 2001 in Israeli army?

Also, Galil Ace was only exported to small South American nations and Vietnam. No big and powerful country ever bought it in any capacity whatsoever.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Many people ask how can we improve our domestic produced products and make it world class?? When our country isn't even inducting enough domestic products and rather concentrating on western and Russian ones and giving a third eye on Indian products is the problem!!! This goes to especially the small arms department in our country!!!!
You wanna know how a country like Iran constantly improve their domestic products?? Simple take a look at the structure of the armed forces of Iran.
*Normal Military of Iran (Army, Navy and Airforce)
*IRGC of Iran (Army, Navy, Airforce, Quads forces, reserves).
All most all the western products are used by regular Military. All the domestic products are used by IRGC and they extensively use it to find flaws and improve it. This is how even we have to improve ourselves.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Iran even operates its own tank, which was a copy of T-72 and they are modernizing it as per their own capacity. We on the other hand are still paying license producing for T-90 production and paying royalty fees to Russians. We are planning to import even small arms from Russia for mass production, and we will be paying royalty to Russians for the next two decades at minimum, for a modernized version of a gun who base design was done in the 40s.

 

[Flying Dagger]

When will we fucking learn????? BETTER go with Israeli and American one if western products are required!!!! The whole EU is under the guise of China and trump has learnt it.

Fcuking copy SCAR and show them middle finger... This is golden opportunity , do the same with HK 416 .

They can't do jackshit abt it.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Definition cannot be stupid just because it is inconvenient to you. Assembling a rifle from knocked down parts kit requires the use of screw driver. Hence the term screw driver giri. It does not require any transfer of IPR.
Secondly, there was no official discussion about Galil from MOD standpoint. Since AK-203 was a political deal, it's future was bound to be uncertain just like FGFA and Kamov 200. Galil Ace was brought up by some members like yourself, as an alternative to AK-203. However, the GOI has already made a import negative list which includes 7.62*39 mm caliber assault rifle. So, if the AK-203 deal is formally cancelled or fails to materialize before December 2021, only indigenous rifles will be considered like Ghatak, TAR, MCIWS, SSS Defence etc. No more foreign imports after that.



Where have I bought AEK 971 in my previous posts in this thread?




Because that is an extremely valid argument, which you are conveniently overlooking. Whenever any Indian company (like DRDO, BF etc.) wants to sell any arms product to a foreign nation. The first question they ask is whether it is adopted/rejected by our armed forces and law enforcement. Now, why won't we apply the same yardstick to Galil?
Also, Vietnam has no local alternatives to Galil. Vietnam army is also not really a role model for Indian armed forces. We have a much bigger defence budget and weapons development than them.



Please tell me are the Israelis gifting us the Galil for free? If that was the case, I would gladly say please drop any weapons development and adopt the Galil en-masse. On the contrary, they are asking $1600 dollars for each rifle. Hence Galil Ace provides no cost advantage to us, and on top of that kills any small arms development in India, because at a minimum 6.5 lacs are projected for just army and more for paramilitary and police forces.



This is an interesting point. Now when the Americans were no longer supplying the M-16, why did they move to Tavor, which is an unconventional bullpup design, rather than ever evolving Galil? Why was modernized Galil overlooked and Tavor inducted in 2001 in Israeli army?

Also, Galil Ace was only exported to small South American nations and Vietnam. No big and powerful country ever bought it in any capacity whatsoever.

It's stupid because you are defining it. It's not inconvenient but ridiculous.

IPR has nothing to do with screw driver giri... Even for Ak 203, IPR would have been with Russians but we will be manufacturing it inhouse.

Don't make assumption on your part even now PLR is building parts of rifle in house and in a bulk production they'll be making it all inhouse.

GOI list clearly confirms if Galil comes through make in India route it's on so are other rifles who chose to come with make in India route. Probably you aren't aware of this .

And regarding Galil Ace it's a successful rifle and we already operate it in small numbers. Even Sig 716 isn't used by USA army as standard but we adopted it . Ukraine is license building it along with TAVOR and other Israeli arms.

Unlike OFB products these rifles have quality standard and get tested in American civilian market. While OFB products have no takers there. Even When Nepal got it for free they were so disgusted with performance that they started looking out for alternative .

Now coming to your free loader question No one is offering us anything for free and why would they ?

As said multiple times the price of Galil would be brought done under 1000 if bulk orders are given just like Viets. You need to end the rhetoric .

Vietnam have a good armed force and they have proved their mettle time to time.

Americans never stopped supplying rifle but Israel moved on to TAVOR because it is much more convenient to operate and carry but it's a bullpup. If IA wants a bullpup then TAVOR series is the best available one.

In conventional Galil ACE is best option for AK replacement . Now IWI have Carmel too on offer.

Regarding OFB if they had a product worth the weight Army wouldn't be looking out.. they have been a failure thats why import option is used.

 

[Akim]

It's stupid because you are defining it. It's not inconvenient but ridiculous.

IPR has nothing to do with screw driver giri... Even for Ak 203, IPR would have been with Russians but we will be manufacturing it inhouse.

Don't make assumption on your part even now PLR is building parts of rifle in house and in a bulk production they'll be making it all inhouse.

GOI list clearly confirms if Galil comes through make in India route it's on so are other rifles who chose to come with make in India route. Probably you aren't aware of this .

And regarding Galil Ace it's a successful rifle and we already operate it in small numbers. Even Sig 716 isn't used by USA army as standard but we adopted it . Ukraine is license building it along with TAVOR and other Israeli arms.

Unlike OFB products these rifles have quality standard and get tested in American civilian market. While OFB products have no takers there. Even When Nepal got it for free they were so disgusted with performance that they started looking out for alternative .

Now coming to your free loader question No one is offering us anything for free and why would they ?

As said multiple times the price of Galil would be brought done under 1000 if bulk orders are given just like Viets. You need to end the rhetoric .

Vietnam have a good armed force and they have proved their mettle time to time.

Americans never stopped supplying rifle but Israel moved on to TAVOR because it is much more convenient to operate and carry but it's a bullpup. If IA wants a bullpup then TAVOR series is the best available one.

In conventional Galil ACE is best option for AK replacement . Now IWI have Carmel too on offer.

Regarding OFB if they had a product worth the weight Army wouldn't be looking out.. they have been a failure thats why import option is used.

The Ukrainian army does not buy either Galil or Tavor, which is a very finicky weapon for our conditions. The army continues to use the good old AK-74 (modernized). Special Operations Forces use the Ukrainian assault rifle "Vulcan" (Kalashnikov's automatic system).

 

[Flying Dagger]

The Ukrainian army does not buy either Galil or Tavor, which is a very finicky weapon for our conditions. The army continues to use the good old AK-74 (modernized). Special Operations Forces use the Ukrainian assault rifle "Vulcan" (Kalashnikov's automatic system).

You are license building it in Ukraine.. how many you have bought or not isn't my concern nor have I mentioned anything abt it.

As far as the weapon system is concerned they are much better than the Aks in terms of accuracy.

 

[FalconSlayers]

The Ukrainian army does not buy either Galil or Tavor, which is a very finicky weapon for our conditions. The army continues to use the good old AK-74 (modernized). Special Operations Forces use the Ukrainian assault rifle "Vulcan" (Kalashnikov's automatic system).

AK74 is a great weapon but we have never used the 5.45x39 cartridge so we are in a big problem while buying AKs. 7.62x39 is not an infantry cartridge anymore.

 

[Akim]

You are license building it in Ukraine.. how many you have bought or not isn't my concern nor have I mentioned anything abt it.

As far as the weapon system is concerned they are much better than the Aks in terms of accuracy.

This is a controversial issue: which is better accuracy or reliability. In Ukraine, they produce WAC-47 (automatic system Stoner ), but also only for export. Fighting in urbanized terrain favors reliability. Accuracy is needed for "sniper war".

 

[Flying Dagger]

This is a controversial issue: which is better accuracy or reliability. In Ukraine, they produce WAC-47 (automatic system Stoner ), but also only for export. Fighting in urbanized terrain favors reliability. Accuracy is needed for "sniper war".

Galil provides both option reliability of Aks and accuracy. Offcourse Tavor is far more sophisticated weapon system and a bullpup rifle.

Ukraine already have stocks of Aks so definitely they'll use the one which is
already available.

Between ... Ace here

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

Fcuking copy SCAR and show them middle finger... This is golden opportunity , do the same with HK 416 .

They can't do jackshit abt it.

Yep I fully support this. Copying and Improving it will be the biggest slap and middle finger to these Western “woke” military contractors . I don’t understand how these idiots will stay in business with this kind of shitty thinking. They are arms manufacturers not Islamist rights defenders.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Random TL chit chat regarding cons of Ghatak, I won't vouch for authenticity though. Maybe @Unknowncommando 2 can:

View attachment 72047

This review from SSB officer was new for me as I have seen pics of ITBP with GHATAK AR in -40 Deg temp. Initially I got good reviews but over the time opinions changed. Probably just because they have better weapons which kinda sets a benchmark. So eventually GHATAK becomes a bad rifle despite having inducted in limited numbers after trials. Now even JKP is replacing their INSAS with GHATAK. It is being actively used in Anti Naxal Ops by COBRA & ITBP.

Negative views from CRPF on GHATAK mentioned in this article.

CRPF to conduct trials of "Made in India" rifles

With its 7.62 X 39 mm dimension, Ghatak's advanced version was put forth as state-of-the-art assault rifle. However, field officers have given it a thumbs down.

www.indiatoday.in

I asked my friend in Assam Police & he told me that GHATAK requires regular oiling & maintaining. It is considered slightly better than Chinese TYPE-56 but not as good as Eastern European clones.

 

[FalconSlayers]

This review from SSB officer was new for me as I have seen pics of ITBP with GHATAK AR in -40 Deg temp. Initially I got good reviews but over the time opinions changed. Probably just because they have better weapons which kinda sets a benchmark. So eventually GHATAK becomes a bad rifle despite having inducted in limited numbers after trials. Now even JKP is replacing their INSAS with GHATAK. It is being actively used in Anti Naxal Ops by COBRA & ITBP.

Negative views from CRPF on GHATAK mentioned in this article.

CRPF to conduct trials of "Made in India" rifles

With its 7.62 X 39 mm dimension, Ghatak's advanced version was put forth as state-of-the-art assault rifle. However, field officers have given it a thumbs down.

www.indiatoday.in

I asked my friend in Assam Police & he told me that GHATAK requires regular oiling & maintaining. It is considered slightly better than Chinese TYPE-56 but not as good as Eastern European clones.

OFB produces cheap weapons that cost a lot in future.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

It is mainly due to working culture in Rifle Factory Ishapore. Since they don't have a milling machine, Ghatak is made with a stamped sheet metal receiver, leading to poor material tolerance under stress. It hardly presents any advantages over the old AKM in terms of reliability. On the plus side, it can be cheap and mass produced in a quick time. It has a new handguard design, which can incorporate picatinny rails.
Regarding plastic in handguard, I think it is a personal issue. Some people like it, some just hate it. However, plastic based polymer parts have been successfully used elsewhere ( like Steyr AUG, H&K G-36), mainly to keep the weight down.

As far as TAR is concerned, it is a better design overall, since OFT chose to clone arguably one of the best AK, i.e. Bulgarian Arsenal AR-M1. OFT has a better culture overall, and they do have a milling machine. Hence TAR comes with milled receiver. After the arrival of TAR, most orders from CAPFs and state forces have been going to TAR rather than Ghatak. Based on their demand, OFT has recently come up with a TAR carbine, based on the AK-74U version from Arsenal. This in future will also get orders.

PS: I also liked the original TAR idea, of rechambering the old SLR 1C in 7.62*39 mm caliber. That idea can be further explored by OFT, only this time the base should be Para FAL which has a modified receiver design than FAL (SLR in our case).

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

OFT should also come up with a LMG variant of TAR based on Arsenal RPK version (7.62*39 caliber) like this:

This will be a huge force multiplier to our CAPFs and state forces

 

[Narendra s rawat]

OFT should also come up with a LMG variant of TAR based on Arsenal RPK version (7.62*39 caliber) like this:

View attachment 72440

This will be a huge force multiplier to our CAPFs and state forces

This may get various order from state police if OFT can make good varient like TAR to replace old bren LMG.

Uttarakhand ATS was also interested in TAR but Price of TAR was still 10k to 20k more than AR m1 after negotiation. In the end Uttrakhand ATS has inducted X95 and Ar m1 for service. Though some TAR and excalibur was also inducted .

If they can able to reduce its price TAR will be go to local weapon for various local police.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

This may get various order from state police if OFT can make good varient like TAR to replace old bren LMG.

This is not a replacement of Bren which fires a higher
caliber 7.62*51 mm. OFB has recently developed a 7.62 *51 mm LMG. This one:

A TAR based LMG will most likely substitute/complement the INSAS LMG.

If they can able to reduce its price TAR will be go to local weapon for various local police.

Production has just began in the last 1-2 years. Let production stabilize and bulk order come in, the price will go down. But still, milled receivers are expensive to make and is time consuming.

Regarding Arsenal AKs , they are being produced in city sized factories having massive assembly lines in triple shift of workers. So, they are being able to produce such high quality weapons in such a cheap prices. They are also exporting all over the world to military, law enforcement and civilian markets. Hence they OFB can only dream to have such facility.

 

[Narendra s rawat]

This is not a replacement of Bren which fires a higher
caliber 7.62*51 mm. OFB has recently developed a 7.62 *51 mm LMG. This one:

View attachment 72441

A TAR based LMG will most likely substitute/complement the INSAS LMG.



Production has just began in the last 1-2 years. Let production stabilize and bulk order come in, the price will go down. But still, milled receivers are expensive to make and is time consuming.

Regarding Arsenal AKs , they are being produced in city sized factories having massive assembly lines in triple shift of workers. So, they are being able to produce such high quality weapons in such a cheap prices. They are also exporting all over the world to military, law enforcement and civilian markets. Hence they OFB can only dream to have such facility.

Uttrakhand ats don't want bulkier LMG they want something light OFT TAR based LMG might do the work.

OFB LMG is good but it will not get order from state police force because they need a lighter weapons. OFB LMG has market in BSF And CRPF.

Chattisgarh police force recently have issued RIF for drum magazine and various other attachment for AK to use them as LMG.

 

[Akim]

Galil provides both option reliability of Aks and accuracy. Offcourse Tavor is far more sophisticated weapon system and a bullpup rifle.

Ukraine already have stocks of Aks so definitely they'll use the one which is
already available.

Between ... Ace here

View attachment 72402

It is old photo. This uniform camouflage was canceled back in 2015. I repeat. There is a license, but they are not released for internal consumption. This is not because of the large stocks of Soviet weapons. The sniper SVD was replaced by the Ukrainian rifles Z-10, Z-15 - because they are better.