Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

[Indian Sniper.001]

To @raja696 and Dushyant (the person who responded to Lt. Cdr. Gokul).

Lt. Cdr. Gokul did not criticize the military action. He criticized the boasting.

I agree with Lt. Cdr. Gokul. Covert actions should remain covert. Covert actions have been carried out for decades without the boasting. When politicians boast about it, they do it to boost their own popularity with the public. However, this puts political pressure on the adversary country (Pakistan in this case) to escalate so as not to lose face in front of their own public.

Source: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...s-should-stay-covert/articleshow/47658995.cms

Yes, covert actions have been carried out in the past in response to TSPA's action @ LC. But, the point is that then the people had not asked for answers from the then establishment and the media wasn't as strong as it is currently. Also, the need for boasting of Army's action is necessary to tell the public that we have avenged and we will do what's necessary in response to TSPA's misadventures.

 

[Project Dharma]

We got a Major of theirs?

The Pakistan fatalities include one major-rank officer and three soldiers named Sajjad, Abdul Rehman and Mohammad Usman, they added.


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india-surgical-strike-swift-raid-shocks-pakistan/1/1118483.html

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

With all due respect to posters over here - the Indian Army always had the skills, but the political will was absent earlier. As a fellow poster (@pankaj nema) had posted a few pages back about the chiding and transferring of aggressive officers at LC for taking decisions to the dismantling of TSD by Gen V K Singh, the political will was transparently absent.

A few points from an article based on Nitin Gokhale's book (chapter on SS) (many would have read it, but it's necessary to read it again in the current context - read debate which is going on here about political will).

- But were not cross-border raids carried out earlier too, I (*Nitin Gokhale, as can be presumed*) asked Gen Dalbir. “Yes, they were,” he agreed “but most actions taken in our younger days were, what we call, BAT (Border Action Team) raids on specific post(s) as retribution for something that the Pakistan Army troops would have carried out on our position(s),” he said. “What we were now planning for was much larger with greater ramifications,” he explained.
- In a way, it was like revisiting their basic tenets for the Special Forces men. And they loved it. Although no one could have anticipated that they would be called in to strike across the LoC, the very thought of crossing a line that was seen as taboo motivated the troops further. Indeed for over two decades no one at the highest political level had ever expressed willingness to sanction, or had demanded such an action inside PoK for the fear of escalation.
- As Col H remembers, “Most of our reorientation took place in the mind; we were crossing a threshold that had been embedded in the mind: thus far and no further. Now we were being asked to do a job that had not been undertaken in decades.” Adds Col K: “Our boys always had the skills, but they had applied the skills to a different set of circumstances, not the task we were about to undertake. However, due to our practice and reorientation, they were at the peak of their skills.” They were, like many Indian Army Officers before them posted along the LoC, aware of one-off, shallow raids launched by different infantry units into PoK. But all of them were individual punitive actions and not large-scale planned operations like the one that was being contemplated now.

Source - https://thediplomat.com/2017/09/the...16-surgical-strikes/?utm_content=buffer48626&

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR bhai.

Add these to the points above -

- The Army in Kashmir is a realist. The surgical strike goals were not really about finishing terrorism in Kashmir or drying up infiltration. It was about the range of our response to terrorism emanating from Pakistan. The signal that we wanted to send was that we would not limit our actions only on our side of the border but also hit Pakistan in their territory. This message was sent successfully and we scored a definite moral victory.

- Can India do another surgical strike tomorrow, if there is another Uri-like terror strike? Or should be wary of Pakistani retaliation? Were you wary of retaliation after the strikes?

Of course, we were wary of retaliation. But the moment Pakistan refused to acknowledge the strike, we knew we had won the moral battle. Pakistan did step up infiltration and we had incidents of mutilation of soldiers but those were tactical actions to regain some lost ground. I wish these incidents had not happened but the Line of Control is a brutal place and these are the realities. Incidentally, our response to the mutilation was very strong and completely directed at the Pakistani Army.

- Many trans-LoC operations have been conducted when you were in service, and as you are aware, some of them have gone even deeper inside PoK than the surgical strikes. Why are the surgical strikes then so significant or unique?
The biggest difference from earlier strikes was the fact that the government had decided to nationally acknowledge the operation. When there is an element of deniability, failures could go unreported. We did not have that luxury. Also the scale at which it happened, multiple strikes across the Jammu and Kashmir regions, had not been attempted before. I think these two factors make last year’s surgical strikes somewhat unique

Source - http://indianexpress.com/article/in...s-glass-ceiling-has-been-broken-4851981/lite/

 

[Vishkanya]

I just pray that this news is authentic and I think it is , in any case it's a an old die-hard habit of those Pakis to declare about 1 casualty if in reality there has been more.....keeping that in mind I feel their casualty is more

 

[Guest]

Such ops are going for a long time and actually except the attack on terror camps in POK every other has been done before.

The Army has crossed border into Myanmar,the Army has done cross loc raids before.

Actually,the LOC unit Ghataks train every day for such raids and which might be conducted anytime the local commanders think it is right.

How many have been killed now 8-10?I know of a incident in NDA time only when more than 15 were killed and no permission was sought from Delhi as Delhi has no business in this.

Remember a dialogue from a movie Shaurya where Brig Pratap says..your democracy,left wing,right wing etc stops 100 kms away from LOC.It doesnt work here.Here there is only Brig Pratap or Brig Pratap.It is actually true and not just a filmy line.

What has changed is that a lot of publicity is given to such raids for obvious vote bank politics which also gives chance to people to defame the Army.

Army should be kept out of politics!

What is your problem with vote bank ? If 26/11 cab labeled as Hindu terrorism, Army Colonel jailed and labeled terrorists, etc for vote bank. Why are you loosing your mind over it, Politician do politics over everything.

When a porki says their 1 soldier is as good as 10 troops from our side, Hindus are kutta(dog), and they won 1965, etc they do it for propaganda. Then there is psychological aspect to it, they show their people that they are invincible, no one can touch them. Indians are coward and only shell civilians while we do Bat operations and bring trophies.

I say why shouldn't we counter this ? Many people here also agree and hence they spend time digging internet about their casualties and exposing them to bust their propaganda. And show them that they are being told lie and their Army is not invincible, far worse they get killed like dogs and run away when challenged, like they did in the last raid.

While what many here are doing by showing the photo of their dead troops, It remain only upto internet users, Pakis being mostly backward don't get to know. But when our politicians talk about it, they do a debate on their TV. And many Indian channels which pakis pick through DTH shows what is the reality. I say our TV should take these pictures from DFI and show them on TV also.

Its all about breaking the Myth on which Pakistan is standing and everything will come crashing down. How do you think a country as sold out in debt and doing nothing has been surviving so long. Its all Myth of falsehood and fake bravado, propaganda etc.

About defaming Army, let them do it, people will respond to that when their time comes through ballot. You should remember what happened to those who questioned last years SS.

Don't ever be ashamed of our troops, they hardly get any medal or extra pay for taking the risk and doing these raids. Even then they do it for Morale, Izzat of Paltan and their reputation. Their effort must be acknowledged and rewarded. The question we should be asking the Government through media is what are we doing to reward our brave hearts, not why are they glorifying them.

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

If this is the accepted casualties, then I don't have to talk about the actual casualties, do I?

"According to civilian and military sources, India has breached the truce more than 1,300 times since January this year, leaving 52 people dead on this side and another 257 injured."

Source - https://www.dawn.com/news/1378962/i...ate-actors-cover-to-plant-ieds-foreign-office

 

[lcafanboy]

These Porkies are truly LIARS. On the one hand they claim some Non State Actors from India (LOL now our brave Special Forces are Non State Actors) Came in and Laid down IEDs which exploded under their ass due to which 3 PA Pigs lost their lives and this IDIOT claims No one Crossed LOC..........

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

These Porkies are truly LIARS. On the one hand they claim some Non State Actors from India (LOL now our brave Special Forces are Non State Actors) Came in and Laid down IEDs which exploded under their ass due to which 3 PA Pigs lost their lives and this IDIOT claims No one Crossed LOC..........

Actually that's an advantage for us. As agreed by posters, the lesser they accept the casualties/India's retaliation, the more we can retaliate. But, we should retaliate, and pound them back to stone age.

 

[lcafanboy]

A nice Reply to Princess:

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

#LCUpdate

This Pakistani soldier also killed at LoC by Indian army in quick retaliation after 4 own troops martyred. Although not reported by ISPR

=====

Name - Tariq

Day of death - 24 Dec

Spoiler: Just see yaar.

~ Shatrujeet009

@Bornubus
@hammer head
@reddevil9
@HarshBardhan

 

[Babloo Singh]

If this is the accepted casualties, then I don't have to talk about the actual casualties, do I?

"According to civilian and military sources, India has breached the truce more than 1,300 times since January this year, leaving 52 people dead on this side and another 257 injured."

Source - https://www.dawn.com/news/1378962/i...ate-actors-cover-to-plant-ieds-foreign-office

Probably the correct way to read above information >>> 257 Dead, 1300 injured in 52 targeted attacks from across the border...

 

[Akshay_Fenix]

.............................................
WoW.

 

[lcafanboy]

To @raja696 and Dushyant (the person who responded to Lt. Cdr. Gokul).

Lt. Cdr. Gokul did not criticize the military action. He criticized the boasting.

I agree with Lt. Cdr. Gokul. Covert actions should remain covert. Covert actions have been carried out for decades without the boasting. When politicians boast about it, they do it to boost their own popularity with the public. However, this puts political pressure on the adversary country (Pakistan in this case) to escalate so as not to lose face in front of their own public.







Source: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...s-should-stay-covert/articleshow/47658995.cms

Actually that's the best strategy. Hit them hard catch them by balls and then yell out from top that we did this. What this does its putting pressure on Pak army which is being exposed in front of their population which thinks Pak army is invincible due to decades of lie propoganda fed by Pak army that India is a coward nation and 1 PA men is equal to 10 IA personnel. Their population still is under illusion that Pak won 1965 and Kargil war. That illusion and propoganda has to be broken to bring down morale of porki Army and public both.

Also we have to cater to world audience that we are no more sissies and we will hot pursue our enemies right into their own territories. This will also put pressure on Pakistan as world will ignore our actions as response to Pak actions and if Pakistan cries in front of world they will simply tell them to mend their ways first.

 

[aditya g]

These tweets from a veteran sum up the difference b/w very well;




.............................

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @Screambowl

With all due respect to posters over here - the Indian Army always had the skills, but the political will was absent earlier. As a fellow poster (@pankaj nema) had posted a few pages back about the chiding and transferring of aggressive officers at LC for taking decisions to the dismantling of TSD by Gen V K Singh, the political will was transparently absent.

A few points from an article based on Nitin Gokhale's book (chapter on SS) (many would have read it, but it's necessary to read it again in the current context - read debate which is going on here about political will).

- But were not cross-border raids carried out earlier too, I (*Nitin Gokhale, as can be presumed*) asked Gen Dalbir. “Yes, they were,” he agreed “but most actions taken in our younger days were, what we call, BAT (Border Action Team) raids on specific post(s) as retribution for something that the Pakistan Army troops would have carried out on our position(s),” he said. “What we were now planning for was much larger with greater ramifications,” he explained.
- In a way, it was like revisiting their basic tenets for the Special Forces men. And they loved it. Although no one could have anticipated that they would be called in to strike across the LoC, the very thought of crossing a line that was seen as taboo motivated the troops further. Indeed for over two decades no one at the highest political level had ever expressed willingness to sanction, or had demanded such an action inside PoK for the fear of escalation.
- As Col H remembers, “Most of our reorientation took place in the mind; we were crossing a threshold that had been embedded in the mind: thus far and no further. Now we were being asked to do a job that had not been undertaken in decades.” Adds Col K: “Our boys always had the skills, but they had applied the skills to a different set of circumstances, not the task we were about to undertake. However, due to our practice and reorientation, they were at the peak of their skills.” They were, like many Indian Army Officers before them posted along the LoC, aware of one-off, shallow raids launched by different infantry units into PoK. But all of them were individual punitive actions and not large-scale planned operations like the one that was being contemplated now.

Source - https://thediplomat.com/2017/09/the...16-surgical-strikes/?utm_content=buffer48626&

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR bhai.

Add these to the points above -

- The Army in Kashmir is a realist. The surgical strike goals were not really about finishing terrorism in Kashmir or drying up infiltration. It was about the range of our response to terrorism emanating from Pakistan. The signal that we wanted to send was that we would not limit our actions only on our side of the border but also hit Pakistan in their territory. This message was sent successfully and we scored a definite moral victory.

- Can India do another surgical strike tomorrow, if there is another Uri-like terror strike? Or should be wary of Pakistani retaliation? Were you wary of retaliation after the strikes?

Of course, we were wary of retaliation. But the moment Pakistan refused to acknowledge the strike, we knew we had won the moral battle. Pakistan did step up infiltration and we had incidents of mutilation of soldiers but those were tactical actions to regain some lost ground. I wish these incidents had not happened but the Line of Control is a brutal place and these are the realities. Incidentally, our response to the mutilation was very strong and completely directed at the Pakistani Army.

- Many trans-LoC operations have been conducted when you were in service, and as you are aware, some of them have gone even deeper inside PoK than the surgical strikes. Why are the surgical strikes then so significant or unique?
The biggest difference from earlier strikes was the fact that the government had decided to nationally acknowledge the operation. When there is an element of deniability, failures could go unreported. We did not have that luxury. Also the scale at which it happened, multiple strikes across the Jammu and Kashmir regions, had not been attempted before. I think these two factors make last year’s surgical strikes somewhat unique

Source - http://indianexpress.com/article/in...s-glass-ceiling-has-been-broken-4851981/lite/

 

[Darth Malgus]

.............................................
WoW.

kya hua......can't see tweets...........

 

[Akshay_Fenix]

kya hua......can't see tweets...........

Spoiler: Already posted above

Nitin A. Gokhale

@nitingokhale

Indian Army’s Special Forces Ops opposite Jammu Sector on Sunday night/Mon morning inside PoK killing three Pakistani soldiers including one SSG Commando was in retaliation of the attack on 2 Sikh last week. Pak action is seen as diversionary tactics...

The accompanying graph will reveal why there’s desperation. In Dec alone Pakistani security forces have lost 20 men on Indian and Afghan Border. Big spike from the toll in November. The situation on Pakistan’s western border is grim. The attack on 2 Sikh was to divert attention

The accompanying graph will reveal why there’s desperation. In Dec alone Pakistani security forces have lost 20 men on Indian and Afghan Border. Big spike from the toll in November. The situation on Pakistan’s western border is grim. The attack on 2 Sikh was to divert attention pic.twitter.com/0r399tAquo

More than 215 Pakistani soldiers have been killed in 2017. Pak Army chief Qamar Bajwa’s statement to senate recently that Pak army will back efforts to normalise relations with India is seen as part of the realisation that a two front war is unaffordable for Pakistan.

........................................................................................................................

 

[vinuzap]

Yes thats why relentless media exposure is necessary followed by giving gallantry awards to these soldiers

Modi after coming coming to war started celebrating 1965 victory to because for all these years inside pakistan there army was fooling its people and celebrated 65 loss as victory

Remember late abdul hamid the war hero of 65 , his mother was one of few who supported modi's candidature as pm

 

[pankaj nema]

Indian Army retaliates after Pakistan violates ceasefire twice in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district

Jammu: Pakistani troops on Thursday violated ceasefire twice in Poonch district of Jammu and Kashmir as they resorted to unprovoked and indiscriminate firing from across the border, targeting forward posts and villages, an official said.

The Indian troops guarding the Line of Control (LoC) retaliated the firing but there was no immediate report of any casualty, the official said.

He said the small arms firing from Pakistani side was reported for nearly three hours in the morning in three villages of Digwar sector, causing panic among the border residents.



The firing from across the border again started Thursday evening at Khari Karmara sector in Poonch and the exchange of firing between the two sides was continuing when last reports were received, he said.

The nearby Rajouri district witnessed a heavy exchange of firing between Indian and Pakistani Army after the latter initiated the firing in Nowshera sector.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/indi...mmu-and-kashmirs-poonch-district-4279307.html

 

[lcafanboy]

Army plans to introduce camels for patrolling LAC in Ladakh
Thursday, December 28, 2017 By: TNN Source Link: CLICK HERE


The Indian Army, concerned about the presence of Chinese troops near the Sikkim-Tibet-Bhutan trijunction despite troop disengagement after the Doklam stand-off, is planning a pilot project to introduce both double-humped (Bactrian) and single-humped camels as part of overall measures to check intrusion along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh.

These animals will be trained to patrol and carry heavy loads of ammunition and other supplies. The double-humped camels have capacity to carry between 180-220kg loads compared to about 40 kg carried by mules and ponies, traditionally used by the Indian Army. The double-humped camels can also move faster than mules - up to 10km and 15km on flat track within two hours.

In India, double-humped camels are only found in Ladakh's Nubra Valley. The Army has already got four dromedary (single-humped) camels to Ladakh from the National Research Centre on Camel in Bikaner.

If the pilot project is a success, then double-humped and single-humped camels will be used by the Indian military organisations in the region and in terrains between the altitude of 12,000 and 15,500 feet.

The Defence Institute of High Altitude Research (DIHAR), a laboratory of the DRDO in Leh has already started research on the load-carrying capacity of the Bactrian camels and will assess how they can be trained for carrying load in such harsh topography and weather conditions.

There are around 200 double-humped camels in Nubra valley in Ladakh. The DIHAR director said, "The Bactrian camels were inducted at DIHAR in February 2017 for a pilot study on their suitability for border patrolling, load-carrying ability, training, and devise management practices, considering conditions in high altitude."
http://www.defencenews.in/article/Army-plans-to-introduce-camels-for-patrolling-LAC-in-Ladakh-525396

 

[Leibstandarte]

Look, we all know that a sniper was killed on 24th. Ain't it?
.
The pic I posted of Facebook's Arif Ullah is an SSG Commando himself saying that SSG(N) Commando Faisal Shah's janaza was on 25th December, 3pm. Now the cross border raid didn't happen until 5-6pm on that day. Moreover, this Arif Ullah didn't cite reasons of his death nor pics of his dead body (which raises suspicions) and hence the possibility is that SSG(N) Shah Faisal was the sniper himself who was killed on December 24th

He was talking about the Janaza of SSG N commando Shah Faisal's 'walid' ie his father.