Riots in East Turkestan: Future of Uighurs

asheng312

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In the process of developing, Europe and the US may have gone through great injustices. But does that mean that their experience and incorrect attitude should not teach us and instead just because they have done it, it means we too can do it? I don’t think so. One has to learn from others’ mistake too!!
History in the process of Europe and US developing are much more bloody. We draw a lot of experience from their history and are trying our best to maintain justice while keeping a fast development.
Insurgents exist in many developing countries including India and they are being helped by outside interests. But in a democracy, everything that is happening is known since the media is open and none can gag them. In China, the media is of the State and only news that the CCP wants is known. When the Tibetan riots were on, the foreigners and foreign media was expelled and the CCP carried out huge repression that was only known through clandestine means. If such means were not used, none would know of the horrible repression done by the CCP.!
Where did u see the "the huge repression" ? during that time, there are still a lot of foreigners in TIBET, from their videos uploaded to YOUTUBE, I found only hans being beaten to death, shops being set on fire, polices being attacked . Later, foreigners were forbidden in this area. And I don't think it anything wrong. Do u want more people see the hans being killed ? Like the Horrible movies, more people see, more teenagers would learn from it and become one of the murders. More videos about these things will only add to the hate between our people.
We did not leave the UK. India was not a part of Great Britain, it was a part of the British Empire. We were different people. We won our independence.

The Irish, Scots, Welsh, Celts etc are the people who make up the UK. The Irish separated because they were Catholics and they did not want to be under Protestant rule.

No. learning Mandarin is not wrong. It fact it is good to know as many languages one can learn. The issue is that it should not be forced, directly or indirectly. The operative word is – Forced! If one cannot get a good job or go to university just because they don’t know Mandarin, it means forcing one to learn the language by indirect pressure!!
So u think learning Mandarin is forced by indirect pressure ? Mod Edit : This is not a thread where linguistic policy of GOI can be discussed

Not having long hair or small feet is because Mao forced the people to change. It has nothing to do with becoming westernized. It is part of Mao intelligent ways to tell the condition the Chinese people to realize that Mao’s diktats were the last word in everything. Hair and feet etc has nothing to do with becoming more civilized! Next, someone will say that not eating dogs (as the Chinese do) is a sign of the Chinese being civilized! There are many people in the world, including China, who think the dogs are a delicacy as some feel that frogs legs or eating snails (as in France) is a delicacy! !
If u know more knowllege about China history, u will find that at the beginning of 1900, a lot of Chinese began to cut their long hairs. and women abandoned their tiny-feet wraps.when Mao come in charge of the country in 1949,if u find a man with long hair or a woman with tiny feet, he/she must be over 60 years old. I still don't think eating dogs anything wrong, just like people elsewhere can eat beef.
I am not saying that the Uighurs can do anything they like and that has to be accepted. But if the Tibetans and the Uighurs want to maintain their own religion, culture and language, then it would be wrong to wipe such things out. It is like forcing a Muslim to eat pork. Just because the Hans love eating pork, if you force the Hui to also it pork, they will rebel. !
Mod Edit : Stop Racial Attack , you can treat this as warning .No hans ever force Muslin eat pork
Of course, all countries want to unite their countries, but countries that are multi lingual, multi cultural and multi religious have to be more cautious while handling the minorities. One cannot force them to conform to the wishes of the majority.


In China, the so called religious freedom you have is under State supervision. Controlled religion. The Bishops are selected by your Govt; in fact on this issue there was much problem with the Vatican and the Pope. The CCP selects the Christian priest, the Muslim Imam and the Buddhist priests. All sermons are checked by the CCP apparatchik. That is no religion! That is why there are underground and illegal prayer meetings held in houses of Christians and Muslims. In Xinjiang, Muslims below the age of 18 are not allowed to attend the Mosque or have recourse to Islamic teaching. .!
Like what I said before, some rules in religion and culture and out of date or anti-human or anti-coutry. We should take some measures to lead them to the right direction. What would your gov do if there is a religion that calls for rebellion to your gov ?you still respect their religion and let them develop as they want ?
Money is important in life, but to abandon basic human morality and lust only for money is not the right approach. Today, Russia and China are where they are is all because money making was pushed in the background and nation building was made the credo by ruthless dictators. And so a decadent people were herded to work for the State and the State looked after their earthly need. It is not idea, but people who are bone lazy possibly deserve such a shake up. It was not difficult for these dictators of USSR and Mao’s China because they did not know democracy in the first place. They were all under various rich landlords. !
We'll prove our success in democracy after we succeed in economy.

The lust for money and making money as the sole purpose of life leads to some getting rich and some remaining poor. Such disparity is what cause revolutions!

Already there is discontent between the people of rural China and the urban China, between western China and Coastal China!
Thanks for your suggestions. The gov has noticed this problem and is taking a lot of measures to better this situation.Anyhow we have to make the cake biger then everyone have the opportunity to get more. And this is the reason why see economy development as the first important thing.
 

nimo_cn

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The difference is going to be in the longer term when your frustrated lot will start to revolt and the CCP will keep crushing it. That's when you will have a major problem. Things can fall apart then.

In India people raise their voice everyday and they font have tanks facing them when they do.
I agree with u on the point that the difference is going to be in the longer term. But if we are going to be frustrated at that time, no one can answer that. Maybe we will, maybe we wont. But dont be so sure China will be the incompetent in the future, while there is no sign indicates China is going down.
I dont want to argue with u about whoes system can sustain longer and perform better in the future, although we have proved ourselves in the last 30 years. All i want to say is that we choosed our system, and we are fine with that, Indian choosed yours and you are ok with that, and we respect that.So dont judge our system and us by your standard. In fact, India is not in the position to judge anyone.
 

Ray

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History in the process of Europe and US developing are much more bloody. We draw a lot of experience from their history and are trying our best to maintain justice while keeping a fast development.

Where did u see the "the huge repression" ? during that time, there are still a lot of foreigners in TIBET, from their videos uploaded to YOUTUBE, I found only hans being beaten to death, shops being set on fire, polices being attacked . Later, foreigners were forbidden in this area. And I don't think it anything wrong. Do u want more people see the hans being killed ? Like the Horrible movies, more people see, more teenagers would learn from it and become one of the murders. More videos about these things will only add to the hate between our people.

So u think learning Mandarin is forced by indirect pressure ? Ok. u think I wanna learn English ? No. because the world was leaded by English speaking countries, to get better jobs ,to know about new technology,we have to learn english. U like to tell me that u learn english instead of your thousands of years' indian language bcoz u love english and wanna learn english ? And your gov make english as your main official language because through democracy, most people in India wanna learn english, they demand english as their first and most important language ? aren't all of are driven by "indirect force “?


If u know more knowllege about China history, u will find that at the beginning of 1900, a lot of Chinese began to cut their long hairs. and women abandoned their tiny-feet wraps.when Mao come in charge of the country in 1949,if u find a man with long hair or a woman with tiny feet, he/she must be over 60 years old. I still don't think eating dogs anything wrong, just like people elsewhere can eat beef.

U know Tibetan religion ? DALAI have several sticks that was made of human skin. He and his first-class people has the right to kill the third-class people without the least punishment or loss. U still think these religion is what most people want in Tibet and should not be deleted from their religion rules ? If u daubt my words, please lean Tibet language and see Tibet history with your own eyes.No hans ever force Muslin eat pork

Like what I said before, some rules in religion and culture and out of date or anti-human or anti-coutry. We should take some measures to lead them to the right direction. What would your gov do if there is a religion that calls for rebellion to your gov ?you still respect their religion and let them develop as they want ?

We'll prove our success in democracy after we succeed in economy.



Thanks for your suggestions. The gov has noticed this problem and is taking a lot of measures to better this situation.Anyhow we have to make the cake biger then everyone have the opportunity to get more. And this is the reason why see economy development as the first important thing.


I would be surprised if there is justice beyond following the diktats of the CCP.

In a country which does not allow any thoughts beyond the CCP, there can be hardly any justice. Falun Gong banned and persecuted, the Cultural Revolution etc! Or the Gang of Four who were espousing a different thought.

What has ‘fast development’ got to do with free thought? Is development some kind of religion that requires suppression of the human thought and freedom? Odd logic!

As far as repression in Tibet, it is not for me to say much. A wee bit of Googling would reveal the repression. During the Tibet riots, all foreigners were thrown out. Please Google, if that is now again allowed!

The Tibetans and the Uighurs can’t be said to ‘love’ the Hans. So, are you suggesting that videos of reality should not be there so that there is harmony – a false harmony is your answer?

No, I don’t want Hans killed, but I also don’t think it is good to see Uighuers and Tibetan brutalized by Han authorities!

Would that be a wrong thing to expect? Or is Han uber alles?

I think you are not aware of India. The main language is Hindi, which is our national language. English is not the main language, so correct your idea please. We are a minimum three language county – the national language, Hindi, local language and English. Let me explain to you since you are not aware. We learn Hindi, because it is our national language. Our local language, since it is our culture and English because it is for international interaction (to communicate with people like you! I am sure you don’t know Hindi and so how would I communicate with you, if I did not know English?) There is no pressure on us, direct or indirect to learn any language. We have the option to choose and since we are not total fools, we realize what is good for us and learn languages. I, for instance, know English, Hindi (my national language), Bengali (my mother tongue), Marathi (my regimental language), Urdu, Punjabi, German and smattering of Russian. Was I under pressure to learn all these languages? Not at all!

Even if I knew only my mother tongue, I would still be able to join government service!!

What does it matter who cuts his hair or not. In our country, the amritdhari Sikhs don’t cut their hair anywhere on their body or some Muslim have flowing beards. Are they antediluvian? Not at all! So what is the brouhaha that you are trying to conjure?

Personally, I don’t care who eats what. However, the Chinese was embarrassed that the Chinese eat dogs and that is why they sent a directive that during the Olympic, none were to serve dogs on the menu. Google and check! The CCP found eating dogs reprehensible!

When the Olympics are held elsewhere, no govt issues a directive that beef should not be served!!

Yes, I know Buddhism including Tibetan variety. Served in areas where they were there. I don’t have to learn Tibetan to understand them, as I don’t have to learn Mandarin to understand Chinese people.

As far as making Muslim eat pork by force, you will have a rebellion! The CCP is not made up of fools. They are clever people who have kept such a huge country with all its problems under control, weaving dreams of their becoming rich quick and making them slog like bonded labour.

All religions are out of date. Tell me something new. No religion calls for rebellion against the country. They call for rebellion for their religion, if it is suppressed. In China, religion is suppressed. In India all can follow their religion. In fact, in India, the Constitution was changed to accommodate Islam, even though it was against what is called human rights that you talk about in your post!! Shah Bano case!

You are so conditioned like the Pavlovian dogs, you will never change or have democracy! Power corrupts and the CCP will never give up power and like the Pavlovian dogs, the Chinese people will be satisfied. See your posts. You are happy that you are making money and you think that is the Holy Grail. How will you and your ilk change?

The disparity that is there between the regions and the rural and urban will increase, not because the CCP but because of the Chinese people themselves, who think that Money is their God!!
 

yuebaili

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Pls allow me to answer this question.

This reason doesn't exist in any chinese mind. Democracy means the majority will rule the minority. As long as the han chinese still consists more than 90% of population, any province independence will be impossible.

The reason we don't choose democracy now is we have more urgent subject: developing economy. Even today, there are milions people in poverty. There are still thousands of children can't get good education. We realy need to do sth for these peole. Democracy is good thing, but it will delay the assistance to these people. Just as india, they enjoy the democracy from the begainning. But they spend almost 50 years figuring out how to develop their country. In china, most parents realy don't have that patient to wait 50 years.
Have you ever been allowed to choose? As far as I know you have to obey your communist masters. At least this is what some Chinese friends living in my country because they would have to to to jail if they return to China, say. Maybe if you translate the beginning of your national anthem (起来不愿做奴隶的人民) and think about it, you will understand what they mean.

Maybe Tibetans and Uighurs are not majorities in their provinces today. But before Chinese occupation they were. As for the Taiwanese it is obvious that they will not accept communist supremacy as long as they can protect themselves from Chinese aggression. And elections in Hongkong have proven that they do not like communist supremacy either. But they have to.
 

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All i want to say is that we choosed our system, and we are fine with that, Indian choosed yours and you are ok with that, and we respect that.So dont judge our system and us by your standard. In fact, India is not in the position to judge anyone.
You didnt chose your system. It was stuffed down the throats of your maybe grandfather by your beloved Mao. You have ever since lived like that. No Choice. So dont give me all that. All protests were severely dealt with, Tianenmen being an example of the extreme.
 

Ray

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As long as the han chinese still consists more than 90% of population, any province independence will be impossible.
In a Federal system, the provinces are independent in decision making on issues concerning their provinces and there is a Federal Govt at the Centre to oversee as also concentrate on issues of Federal nature and Foreign Affair, Finance and Defence.
 

badguy2000

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Have you ever been allowed to choose? As far as I know you have to obey your communist masters. At least this is what some Chinese friends living in my country because they would have to to to jail if they return to China, say. Maybe if you translate the beginning of your national anthem (起来不愿做奴隶的人民) and think about it, you will understand what they mean.

Maybe Tibetans and Uighurs are not majorities in their provinces today. But before Chinese occupation they were. As for the Taiwanese it is obvious that they will not accept communist supremacy as long as they can protect themselves from Chinese aggression. And elections in Hongkong have proven that they do not like communist supremacy either. But they have to.
During the voting by nationwide citizens in 1991,75% of soviet citizens agreeed to keep the unity of soviets states.

however, the voting could not stop the collapsion of soviets.


After chinese revolution in 1911, Kuomingtang won all elections ,however the voting could not stop warlords to divide china .

During the Freach great revolutions, the Jacobins wons most voters but it was the Jacobins that made the whole france into ochlocracy .

the above fully prove that the mojority sometimes made crazy wrong decision and make the whole county into disaster.

I can not let china risk ochlocracy or any other disaster.
 

Vinod2070

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^^ You want examples of dictatorships and communists taking their country to disasters?

And successful democracies?
 

yuebaili

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During the voting by nationwide citizens in 1991,75% of soviet citizens agreeed to keep the unity of soviets states.

however, the voting could not stop the collapsion of soviets.


After chinese revolution in 1911, Kuomingtang won all elections ,however the voting could not stop warlords to divide china .

During the Freach great revolutions, the Jacobins wons most voters but it was the Jacobins that made the whole france into ochlocracy .

the above fully prove that the mojority sometimes made crazy wrong decision and make the whole county into disaster.

I can not let china risk ochlocracy or any other disaster.
In the cases of the Chinese and French revolutions, as far as I understand, it had to do with powerful persons who abused their power. The voting people should not be blamed for this.

As for the soviet citizens in 1991, I don´t know about the Russian republic, but I am convinced the majority of citizens in all other republics wanted independence. If you can prove otherwise, please do so, and I will accept that I was wrong.
 

no smoking

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In the cases of the Chinese and French revolutions, as far as I understand, it had to do with powerful persons who abused their power. The voting people should not be blamed for this.

As for the soviet citizens in 1991, I don´t know about the Russian republic, but I am convinced the majority of citizens in all other republics wanted independence. If you can prove otherwise, please do so, and I will accept that I was wrong.
But don't forget those powerful people were elected by voting people. Their power was given by the voting people.

Democracy isn't the key to every lock. It can only resolve some problems. In the past century, we are facing some serious problems: poverty, starving and war. Millions people died as well as the children. We really don't have time to let everyone argue their opion.

As Colonl of engineer said, even in China, peolpe can vote with bullet. In 1949, KMT was forced to step down by bullet. So, if CCP proves it can no longer lead China in right track, we will vote with bullet again.
 

badguy2000

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In the cases of the Chinese and French revolutions, as far as I understand, it had to do with powerful persons who abused their power. The voting people should not be blamed for this.

As for the soviet citizens in 1991, I don´t know about the Russian republic, but I am convinced the majority of citizens in all other republics wanted independence. If you can prove otherwise, please do so, and I will accept that I was wrong.

yes ,you are wrong.

In the nationwide voting of SOivet citiznes in 1991, 90% peopel of the 5 repubics in center asia were for the unity of soviet,because they didn't lwant to lost the economy aid form moscow.

most people of other republic also insist on the unity of soviet.instead,
 

yuebaili

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yes ,you are wrong.

In the nationwide voting of SOivet citiznes in 1991, 90% peopel of the 5 repubics in center asia were for the unity of soviet,because they didn't lwant to lost the economy aid form moscow.

most people of other republic also insist on the unity of soviet.instead,
OK, I was wrong. And as I did not know about this, I had to do some research. This is what I got from Wikipedia;
The voting was not quite nationwide, as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Armenia, Georgia and Moldova did not participate. But in each of the other nine republics, a majority of the voters supported the retention of the renewed Soviet Union. And following the results, Armenia indicated it wanted to rejoin in Union discussion.
Had it not been for the August Coup, the New Union Treaty, which was to convert the Soviet Union into a federation of independent republics with a common president, foreign policy and military, might have been signed, as it was supported by the Central Asian republics.
So the reason this treaty was not signed was not democracy, but a totalitarian coup d´etat.
But anyway 8 former soviet republics finally signed an agreement on forming a new economic community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1985–1991)

Do you find this description of the events correct?
 

nimo_cn

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You didnt chose your system. It was stuffed down the throats of your maybe grandfather by your beloved Mao. You have ever since lived like that. No Choice. So dont give me all that. All protests were severely dealt with, Tianenmen being an example of the extreme.
If it is not we chinese people chose CCP, then how can that be possible it is CCP that are ruling China, how can that be possible kuomingdang was replaced by CCP? A party cant survive without the majority's support, even "ironhand" measures are taken, just like kuomingdang had done. The chinese people are supporting CCP,and will support CCP, as long as it fulfills our demands, demands for better life, demands for better edutcation, demands for better medical care, and so on. If CCP fails to meet our expectations, we chinese know what we should do. We dont need Indians and other foreigners point your fingers at us and tell us what to do. Even if it was hell that we have chosen, which actually is not, let us live in the hell, you indians enjoy the heaven.
 

Yusuf

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nimo,

You cannot look beyond as you have been blinded by the brainwashing CCP. Dont you have a neighbor whose people are starving and living a life in misery and still father son duo have ruled for 60 odd years? How did Stalin alone rule USSR for that long?
Chinese people have chosen CCP? What a joke.
 

no smoking

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nimo,

You cannot look beyond as you have been blinded by the brainwashing CCP. Dont you have a neighbor whose people are starving and living a life in misery and still father son duo have ruled for 60 odd years? How did Stalin alone rule USSR for that long?
Chinese people have chosen CCP? What a joke.
Obivously, you have no idea about the history of civil war in china between 1927-1949, which can clearly show you how ccp develped from a thousands member party to the ruler of whole china. Without chinese people's support, ccp should have disappered at 1934。
 

nimo_cn

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nimo,

You cannot look beyond as you have been blinded by the brainwashing CCP. Dont you have a neighbor whose people are starving and living a life in misery and still father son duo have ruled for 60 odd years? How did Stalin alone rule USSR for that long?
Chinese people have chosen CCP? What a joke.
The real joke here is Indians who know nothing about China are lecturing Chinese on the domestic issues of China.

First, like i said,no party can survive without the majority's support, so if u know something about the history of CCP, especailly the civil war of China,then you will know Chinese people do support CCP.

Second, i trust what i have seen. I was born in a remote countryside village in 1987, and now i am a postgraduate in college. I have learned english, that is why i can talk with you here, although my english is lame. When i was young, i had never thought i could be what i am today, because at that time China was still poor, much poorer than today. But i become what i am today, the development of China takes me here. And many Chinese people around me have the same experience, and they have the same feeling about CCP . The post-80s,refering to people who were born in 1980s, have witnessed unprecedented transformations happening in China, they are personally involved in the fast developement of China and benefit a lot from it. The transformation and deveploment are what we are asking for, and the CCP is doing its best to fulfill it, so we support the CCP.

Dont be so arrogant to say you know everything and we Chinese are brainwashed and blind. We know our system has a lot of problems and we are not avoiding those problems. After all, is there any system in the world that is perfect? But the system we chose maybe the most suitable system available for the temporary China and what is more important is that the system is performing well. Since we know our system are full of problems, we will fix them in the future.
 

yuebaili

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Obivously, you have no idea about the history of civil war in china between 1927-1949, which can clearly show you how ccp develped from a thousands member party to the ruler of whole china. Without chinese people's support, ccp should have disappered at 1934。
You are avoiding the questions of Yusif: What about Kim Il Song in N Korea and Stalin in USSR? Did they have the peoples support? And Kim Yong Il today?
Anyway if the people support them it means that people are stupid. And to me it seems very possible that most Chinese are stupid. Lots of Chinese voluntered to help the N Korean dictatorship. And even today Chinese people cannot admit it was wrong to do so. They should be ashamed. But if they have been brainwashed it is not their fault. The people who supported Mao during the civil war were mostly poor peasants with no education. Very easy to manipulate.
But educated Chinese of today should know better. Unfortunately if they dare to oppose CCP they risk to be put in jail. Or they have to leave China, like my Chinese friends in Sweden.
 

no smoking

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You are avoiding the questions of Yusif: What about Kim Il Song in N Korea and Stalin in USSR? Did they have the peoples support? And Kim Yong Il today?
Anyway if the people support them it means that people are stupid. And to me it seems very possible that most Chinese are stupid. Lots of Chinese voluntered to help the N Korean dictatorship. And even today Chinese people cannot admit it was wrong to do so. They should be ashamed. But if they have been brainwashed it is not their fault. The people who supported Mao during the civil war were mostly poor peasants with no education. Very easy to manipulate.
But educated Chinese of today should know better. Unfortunately if they dare to oppose CCP they risk to be put in jail. Or they have to leave China, like my Chinese friends in Sweden.
First of all, we are discussing a subject equally, you have no right to insult the intellegence of the 1.3 billion chinese. This doesn't help your argument.

I realy don't know about Kim, but I know there are lots of russians admiring Stalin even today. How to judge a leader is decided by the people of this country instead of you. They experienced the result of this leader's ruling in first place, not like you who just read some statistics from second hand sources. Their judgement is more credible than yours.
 

yuebaili

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Do you mean 1.3 billion chinese are all happy to obey their communist masters?

And if we are not germans we cannot judge whether Hitler was a good leader or not?
 

no smoking

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Do you mean 1.3 billion chinese are all happy to obey their communist masters?

And if we are not germans we cannot judge whether Hitler was a good leader or not?
Germans were not fooled by hilter. They clearly know what hilter would bring to them: the war. They wanted to avenge the failure of 20 years ago. The only thing they didn't anticipated was that they loss, agin.

Why do you think most of chinese should be unhappy about CCP's policy? Before 1949, there were hundred thousands people died because of gov's ill-regulation, civil war and foreign invasion. Every year, milions of peasants lost their land and had to sell their children to keep themselves alive. They could only keep less than 30% of the harvest and the rest were taken away by gov, landlord or war lord. There were no hope for the normal peasants. at this time, CCP promised a better life and they made it. The peasants' life were becoming better and better: there was no need to sell the children any more; They can even get their land back. After all these happened, why don't they choose CCP?

Today, under CCP rulling, most of chinese are enjoying a far better life their father and grandfather never dreamed of. And they have plenty of reasons to believe that they will live even better tomorrow. Do you think they will urge CCP to step down because someone protested the political rights? Do you think most of them will give shit that someone can't cry publicly? Yes, they will, but not today, not tomorrow, maybe 10 years later. But there is one thing will never happen that they will condemn their own gov because some indian or americans are unhappy about the chinese gov.

if you can't understand this, then you are stupid.
 

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