Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[plugwater]

Russia set to take part in new Indian submarine tender

Russia will participate in a new tender on the delivery of six diesel-electric submarines for the Indian Navy, the state-run exporter Rosoboronexport said.Russia dropped out of the first Indian submarine tender in 2009. "There is a new tender, with the new requirements, and together with [Russia's] Rubin design bureau we are making a proposal to India for Amur 650 class submarines," Azizov told reporters at IMDS-2011 naval show in St. Petersburg on Friday.
Azizov said that Amur class is a fourth-generation vessel, and "Russia has all chances to win the tender."
The Indian Navy said in February it will announce a global tender for procuring six next generation submarines worth about $11 billion by the end of 2011.
India is building six Scorpene submarines the Mazgaon Dockyards Limited (MDL) under a deal with France's DCNS. However, the Indian side said it would need submarines "with better stealth capability, improved detection range and combat management system."
According to Azizov, Amur class subs match these requirements perfectly, as their sonar signature level is several times less than that of Kilo class submarines which are considered at present the most silent in the world.
In addition, Amur 650 could be equipped with the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) systems on the basis of fuel cells to increase considerably the endurance and cruise range in a submerged state.
According to Indian sources, France, Germany and Spain will also participate in the tender.
The Indian Navy is planning to commission at least 12 submarines in the next decade to strengthen its depleted submarine fleet.

Russia set to take part in new Indian submarine tender | idrw.org

 

[nrj]

Amur 1650

 

[nrj]

India Speeds up Submarine Acquisitions, Creates a New Post in Indian Navy

With a dismal underwater combat capability due to the tardy rate of acquisition of submarines, Indian Navy plans to oversee and fast-track all its submarine acquisition plans to match its fleet with that of its neighboring countries. To ensure the follow-up on Indian Navy's submarine acquisition plan, Rear Admiral M T Moraes has been appointed as the new assistant chief of naval staff (submarines), a post in the Indian Navy which has resurfaced after many years.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Mazagon sees opening in submersible drift

With India's submarine acquisition programme tangled in a decade-old logjam, defence shipyard Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) has staked claim for Project 75I, a line of six advanced submarines for the Indian Navy.

MDL is already building Project 75, for six Scorpene submarines, using technology from Armaris, the Franco-Spanish shipbuilder. It believes the decision-making paralysis that has stymied Project 75I will allow MDL to build at least three, and possibly six, more Scorpenes after completing Project 75.

Project 75I is in the doldrums, after three Ministry of Defence (MoD) committees failed to zero on the Indian shipyards capable of participating in such a project. Besides MDL, already engaged in Project 75, Larsen & Toubro is competing fiercely for Project 75I, flaunting its role in building INS Arihant, the country's first nuclear submarine. As time has passed without a decision, new contenders, particularly Pipavav Shipyard and the MoD's newly-acquired Hindustan Shipyard Ltd have also emerged as contenders.

Meanwhile, the MoD is more fuddled than ever after its third and latest high-power committee, headed by V Krishnamurthy, chairman of the National Manufacturing Competitiveness Council, failed to agree on which shipyard(s) should be awarded Project 75I. The MoD is currently pondering the Krishnamurthy committee's divided recommendations. An earlier MoD decision to build three Project 75I submarines at MDL, one at HSL and two in the private sector or abroad now stands scrapped.

With tendering nowhere in sight, the chief of MDL, Vice Admiral (retd) H S Malhi, says their Project 75 Scorpene production line provides a handy springboard for Project 75I. MDL, as Malhi notes, has the facilities, the experience, the workmen and an ongoing workflow that make it easy to extend the six-Scorpene order of Project 75, improving the specifications if the navy so requires.

Malhi mobilises a powerful financial argument: India has already paid Rs 6,000 crore for Scorpene technology. Building additional Scorpenes would only require the payment of licence fees. Choosing another design would require paying for technology afresh.

"If the tender for Project 75I is going to be delayed by another two-three years, we can easily extend the current Scorpene order by another three submarines. Else, Project 75I could be a Scorpene-plus, a more potent submarine, with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) and the ability to launch missiles. The technology we have already paid for would be amortised over a larger number of submarines, making these cheaper," he argues.

Background

Sections of the Indian Navy would welcome more Scorpenes quickly, in the face of a worrisome submarine build-up by China and Pakistan. However, a powerful lobby within the navy, which favours Russian submarines, opposes extending the Scorpene order. They have a potent political argument against ordering more Scorpenes, that Project 75 was not competitively bid but was a controversial, single-vendor purchase. Enlarging the order would be fraught with political risk.

Further, going by the navy's 30-year Submarine Construction Plan, which the apex Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) okayed in 1999, Project 75I must build Russian submarines. The 30-year plan for constructing 24 conventional submarines in India envisages two simultaneous construction lines: one building six submarines from western technology and another building six submarines from eastern bloc (i.e. Russian) know-how. Based on the experience gathered, India would build another 12 submarines to an indigenous design.

Project 75, for six Scorpenes, is the western technology line. The next six must incorporate Russian technology, according to the 30-year plan. Indian Navy submarine folklore believes Russian designs feature greater endurance and firepower; while western designs are stealthier and harder to detect. Indian designers are to incorporate the best of both traditions into the 12 indigenous submarines.

MDL faces flak for a three-year delay in Project 75, but Malhi has strongly defended his shipyard's record. Admitting the first Scorpene would indeed be delivered three years late (in mid-2015, instead of 2012), Malhi says he will deliver the remaining five submarines at eight-month intervals instead of the 12-month interval originally planned. That means all six Scorpenes will be delivered by September 2018, just nine months later than the scheduled completion of Project 75.

MDL plans to achieve this by setting up a second Scorpene line at a recently acquired shipyard, the Alcock Yard, within its premises in Mumbai. After mid-2013, all six submarines will be outfitted simultaneously, the first three in the current workshop, and the next three in Alcock Yard.

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PS: Old news but as i see new enough for this thread.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Building a submarine fleet

The Indian Navy has acted decisively over the years to create the capability and infrastructure needed for building surface battleships, but it has dithered in setting up an industry that could build submarines. Consequently, even as India's 140-ship surface fleet is an imposing presence across a swathe of the northern Indian Ocean Region (IOR) from the Gulf of Hormuz to the Strait of Malacca, its 14 diesel-electric submarines hardly provide a matching underwater capability. Meanwhile China, with at least 53 conventional and 7 nuclear attack submarines (SSNs), poses a viable threat to our waters. Even Pakistan is boosting its submarine fleet to 11 vessels, of which 9 will have air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems that are superior to anything in the Indian Navy.

What makes submarines so important? Naval warfare is about gaining "sea control", or dominating an operationally important tract of water. In a war with China or Pakistan "sea control" would enable the Indian Navy to bottle up enemy warships in their harbours; prevent seaborne operations by the enemy; and block commercial vessels from resupplying those countries. Sea control is a rich man's game, requiring the deployment of naval assets in multiple dimensions: underwater; surface, aerial and space. India can hope to gain sea control only in its vicinity, i.e. the northern IOR.

Then there is "sea denial", a less force-intensive, spoiler's option in which a navy deploys submarines and lays mines to deny the enemy sea control. For example, three or four Pakistani submarines lurking off India's west coast would tie up Indian naval assets in locating and neutralising them, diverting those Indian vessels from the task of sea control. The longer a submarine can lurk underwater, i.e. "remain on patrol", the longer it ties down enemy assets. Diesel-electric submarines like the Indian Navy's must resurface periodically to charge their batteries, giving away surprise. In contrast, submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP), and SSNs, can remain submerged far longer.

The Indian Navy, which aspires to "blue water" capability, must be capable of sea control in certain sectors, as well as sea denial further away, e.g. at the choke points leading into the Indian Ocean from the South China Sea. That requires at least 24 conventional submarines for our coastal waters; and at least 5-7 SSNs that can carry out sea denial for extended durations at very long ranges.

Unfortunately, the building of such a submarine force has been beset with blunders. The Indian Navy makes do with 14 old-style, diesel-electric submarines, of which just 7-8 are operational at any time. Six Scorpene submarines are currently being built under Project 75, but when they come on stream by late 2018 an almost equivalent number will have retired from the current fleet.

The Ministry of Defence and the navy are aware of this crisis. In 1999, the cabinet approved a 30-Year Submarine Construction Plan, for constructing 24 conventional submarines in India. Two simultaneous construction lines were to build six submarines each. One line was to use western technology; and the other Russian know-how. Based on this experience, Indian designers would build the next 12 submarines.

Twenty years after the plan was finalised, i.e. in 2019, India will have built just six Scorpene submarines. The reason is as simple as it is astonishing: with Indian shipyards competing to build tens of thousands of crore rupees worth of submarines, the MoD has failed spectacularly to bring any order to this melee. Instead of adjudicating decisively, setting up design and construction partnerships, and placing orders in good time, the MoD has --- in typical Antony style --- avoided a decision. Instead, it has set up committee after committee to identify which shipyard should get the orders. The latest, the Krishnamurthi Committee, has submitted split findings, setting the stage for Antony to launch a fresh round of doing nothing.

It is time to thin out the crowded field of aspirants. Within the public sector, only Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) has built submarines. Its ongoing Project 75 to build six Scorpene submarines should be extended by another three vessels. Of these nine vessels, the last six must have AIP and the ability to fire missiles, changes that can be made easily. This should be India's west coast production line.

On the east coast, L&T (which has gained experience building India's nuclear submarine, the Arihant) should be permitted to join hands with Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL), the MoD's new shipyard in Vishakhapatnam, for building a second line of submarines with Russian technology. The L&T-HSL JV should also be designated the node for developing and building a line of SSNs, which remains a glaring hole in India's defence capabilities. Every other country with nuclear submarine capability first built SSNs before developing the technology for SSBNs, as nuclear ballistic missile submarines are called. India alone has begun with a complex SSBN (the INS Arihant) and is continuing building more SSBNs without taking on the simpler design challenge of SSNs. Now, having leased the INS Chakra, an Akula class SSN, from Russia for the next ten years, India must integrate these experiences into an indigenous SSN line.

Meanwhile, the MoD must ensure that the expensive (Rs 6000 crore) technology that it bought for the Scorpene, and will buy for the Russian submarine line, fructify into a world-class indigenous design. This will require close involvement from the navy's integral design establishment. A concurrent role must be allocated to NIRDESH, the newly set up National Institute for Research and Development in Defence Shipbuilding.


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PS: Old news but as i see new enough for this thread.

 

[plugwater]

One, the Rs 52,000 crore `Project-75India' to acquire six new-generation stealth submarines, equipped with land-attack missiles and air-independent propulsion, for which the global tender is now in the final stages

Rs 3L cr plan to boost India's naval might - The Times of India

 

[ace009]

At times I think it is more useful to be decisive than to be honest or "right". IN submarine acquisition is one such area - MMRCA is the other.

 

[Rahul Singh]

IN needs to get done with imported submarine design soon, so that production of indigenous SSKs begins asap! Who knows if assessment made almost a decade was inaccurate and who know if Navy needs more than 24 SSKs due to changing scenario?

 

[bengalraider]

Russia To Dismantle World's Biggest Subs
29.09.2011
Text: Lenta.Ru
Photo: Project 941 Akula submarine. korabley.net
Russian defense ministry decided to write off all Project 941 Akula nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines till 2014, writes Izvestiya referring to a source in defense ministry. The reason for decommission of the world's largest submarines are restrictions imposed on Russia by Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START-3) and successful trials of new Project 955 Borei submarines. All written-off Akula-class subs will be dismantled.

The START-3 was signed by Russia and the US in spring 2010. The document limits number of deployed nuclear weapons at the level of 1,550 warheads for each party. Up to 1,100 warheads can be placed on already built Borei-class submarines (SSBN Yury Dolgoruky passes trials, SSBN Alexander Nevsky was launched late in 2010) and Project 667BDRM Delfin submarines. The rest 400 warheads will be at disposal of long-range aviation and Strategic Missile Force.

Another reason for decommission of Akulas is adoption of Borei-class subs coming late in 2011. New submarines need a crew 1.5 times smaller than Project 941 subs do. Besides, maintenance of Boreis is significantly cheaper. Another advantage of Project 955 subs is smaller size which makes their detection harder.

However, written-off submarines could be used for non-strategic needs; for instance, carry cruise missiles or other conventional arms, conduct scientific researches or cargo transportations. Experts of JSC Sevmash which built Project 941 Akula say those subs can be refitted into underwater LNG tankers or cargo carriers used in any season. Nonetheless, defense ministry has no plans for Akula conversion saying refitting works would cost tens of billions.

Akula-class submarines were built in the USSR since 1976 till 1989. Each of them is equipped with 20 tubes for R-39 and R-39U ballistic missiles. In total, each submarine may carry up to 200 warheads. Presently, Russian Navy operates three Akula-class submarines – SSBN Dmitry Donskoy used as test platform for new ballistic missile Bulava, SSBN Arkhangelsk, and SSBN Severstal (two latter ones are in reserve).

Earlier on, Rubin design bureau which is Akula developer offered to use Project 941 subs for transportation of commercial cargoes including oil or coal. However, the bureau renounced that idea later having affirmed it was inexpedient. JSC Norilsk Nickel was involved in the under-ice coal transportation project.

Russia To Dismantle World's Biggest Subs

Why Dismantle let's buy a couple of these and refit them to be underwater missile barges carrying upto 300 Brahmos + 300 Nirbhay each then park one somewhere near Mumbai high in the Arabian sea and park the second at Cam Ranh Bay along with a couple of our Kilos, Should give both PLAN and PN admirals sleepless nights!

Ah that was the best wet dream ever!

 

[Armand2REP]

With IN sporting 12 Scorpene submarines of various designs, French equipment makers are going to have to get busy to meet Indias time crunch.

 

[bengalraider]

With IN sporting 12 Scorpene submarines of various designs, French equipment makers are going to have to get busy to meet Indias time crunch.

We should really let you guys build at least 4 of the 12 in Europe to save time,maybe 2 in Lorient and two at Nantes. also a second line in India is badly and urgently needed.

 

[Rahul Singh]

With IN sporting 12 Scorpene submarines of various designs, French equipment makers are going to have to get busy to meet Indias time crunch.

IN is not supporting fleet of 12 Scorpene subs i.e a follow-on order of SIX more for second line aka project P-75I. It is just and only that there are some takers in IN of MDLs stupid (in reality self-benefiting) logic. Desperation is one thing future plan is another. Furthermore, there is a strong lobby in IN -- Kilo lovers-- as well supporting Russian SSKs for their stealthiness. If Russia doesn't play anything stupid then its Amur for P-75I for sure.

 

[DMF]

You India like to buy expensive things, but China like to develop from where they can start, from Junk to fine, look the new 039 sub, already looks nice. The surface very smooth.

MOD EDIT: Stick to the topic

 

[Armand2REP]

IN is not supporting fleet of 12 Scorpene subs i.e a follow-on order of SIX more for second line aka project P-75I. It is just and only that there are some takers in IN of MDLs stupid (in reality self-benefiting) logic. Desperation is one thing future plan is another. Furthermore, there is a strong lobby in IN -- Kilo lovers-- as well supporting Russian SSKs for their stealthiness. If Russia doesn't play anything stupid then its Amur for P-75I for sure.

That is really just Russian fanboysim. MDL is already geared to make FRENCH submarines and they aren't going to change it. The Lada takes 13 years to make and still fails to complete its AIP. India wants ADVANCED submarine systems... that isn't made in Russia.

 

[Rahul Singh]

That is really just Russian fanboysim. MDL is already geared to make FRENCH submarines and they aren't going to change it. The Lada takes 13 years to make and still fails to complete its AIP. India wants ADVANCED submarine systems... that isn't made in Russia.

You can accuse, but the fact is, there exists an entire generation of Indian submariners who have trained with, worked on and loved Kilos. About MDL, well it can do what it want, even set up third line, point is, nothing is happening unless and until Navy shows interest. And fact is, MDL put the excuse for second line only for delivering all Scorpenes by 2018 initially, but to its wickedness/intelligence now they are using it as a tool of blackmail. Lets wait and see what comes out. All i can say, our privete shipyards like L&T, Hindustan and ABG have invested a lot in setting up dedicated submarine lines/space counting on P-75I orders and stakes are such high that they can't afford to lose to MDL. Besides, AIP isn't stopping anything, Navy can source AIP from globe though it is other thing that DRDO too is developing it and after witnessing initial success Navy has joined this project.

 

[Armand2REP]

You can deny, but the fact is there is no time and money to humour old seaman to start up new production of obsolete submarines. There is a strategic and industrial need for more subs and to meet it they will be built in India at MDL. They will only build French boats because their crews and equipment are already trained and geared for the build. They don't have the luxury of another 5 years of teething building another submarine type in a different yard.

Private shipyards... you must be joking. GoI don't like anything private.

 

[Galaxy]

You can deny, but the fact is there is no time and money to humour old seaman to start up new production of obsolete submarines. There is a strategic and industrial need for more subs and to meet it they will be built in India at MDL. They will only build French boats because their crews and equipment are already trained and geared for the build. They don't have the luxury of another 5 years of teething building another submarine type in a different yard.

Private shipyards... you must be joking. GoI don't like anything private.

Most likely we will order 6 Amur Submarines from Russia on ToT and it will be build by Pvt shipyards like L&T Hazira, ABG, etc. In next 1 year, Project 75I will be final and it will be completed around 2020. Most of the Navy officials prefer Russian submarines due to decade old experience. like we upgraded Mirage2k for same reason.



We don't have time to wait for 2018-2020 for MDL to start new project. May be we might buy 3 more Scorpean for MDL which will be completed till 2022. We can't wait for 11 years to start the project 75I. We lack submarines and we need asap.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

You can deny, but the fact is there is no time and money to humour old seaman to start up new production of obsolete submarines. There is a strategic and industrial need for more subs and to meet it they will be built in India at MDL. They will only build French boats because their crews and equipment are already trained and geared for the build. They don't have the luxury of another 5 years of teething building another submarine type in a different yard.

Private shipyards... you must be joking. GoI don't like anything private.

dont underestimate the ministry of defence, artillery, mmrca are just two examples. wont be surprised if they say 5 years, what 5 years? that's too less, it ought to be a decade at least

 

[Rahul Singh]

You can deny, but the fact is there is no time and money to humour old seaman to start up new production of obsolete submarines. There is a strategic and industrial need for more subs and to meet it they will be built in India at MDL. They will only build French boats because their crews and equipment are already trained and geared for the build. They don't have the luxury of another 5 years of teething building another submarine type in a different yard.

Too judgmental. Let me make it straight and simple. Scorpene for P-75 was a single vendor purchase despite being a billion dollar deal and luckily it has not hit any rough patch so far, besides of course. But who knows, two-three years from now something gets uncovered and MoD gets pan*y-less again. Are they risking it more by continuing for second line? Lets leave it for sometime. Think why MoD now issues open tenders? Why MoD refrained from single vendor purchase despite Army artillery strength getting pushed to death? Ghost of Bofors, yeah! Hell they did not let Army buy a single artillery gun since eighties and you are talking about time.

Said all, this is just one reason and that too just technical, only from MoD's angle. There exists a bunch of angles and user is not that small to be ignored. Of these, the prime reason behind setting up of two separate -western and eastern- submarine lines for just 50% of the sanctioned number was for acquiring best of the design features from both world and with an intention to infuse them into Indian design which will make up rest (50% of the sanctioned number i.e 12). I guess, too many and too much to compromise. Navy will wait or improvise but not compromise.

Private shipyards... you must be joking. GoI don't like anything private.

It seems you missed out, how protest by L&T and ABG forced MoD to scrap MDL and Pipav partnership. Did not heard anything similar in my quarter century life. Guess, lot to learn about their capability and power, capitalist's punch (if you will) in times to come. Though be assured, P-75I is either S1000 or any other Amur. L&T is aboard S1000 and they are hard-core capitalists.

 

[Neil]

India falters in getting its new submarine plan off the block

NEW DELHI: The country's long-delayed 'Project-75India' to acquire six new-generation stealth submarines has gone into such a tailspin that it will take at least another two-three years to be even finalized.

With it taking six-seven years to build an advanced submarine, the Navy is faced with the chilling prospect of getting the P-75I boats much beyond 2020, leaving its conventional underwater combat arm without the requisite punch it will need to deter China and Pakistan.

Top defence sources say floating of the global tender or RFP (request for proposal) for the critical P-75I, which envisages manufacture of the six submarines with international collaboration for over Rs 50,000 crore, "is still several months away".

Originally, three of the submarines were to be constructed at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai, while another came up at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam. The other two were to be either imported from the foreign collaborator or built by a domestic private shipyard, as first reported by TOI last year.

But with the Navy and the MoD pulling in different directions on the shipyards which should execute P-75I, coupled with defence minister A K Antony failing to crack the whip and the PMO itself getting involved, three committees were constituted one after the other to examine the project.

Feedback on the report of the third committee, headed by technocrat V Krishnamurthy, which assessed the infrastructure and capabilities in private shipyards like L&T, Pipavav and ABG to manufacture submarines, will now be submitted to the defence acquisitions council (DAC) chaired by Antony.

"The RFP can be issued only by mid-2012 at the earliest," said a source. Complex negotiations will thereafter follow with the foreign vendors (Russian Rosoboronexport, French DCNS, German HDW and Spanish Navantia) because the submarines have to be equipped with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance.

"The actual contract is likely to be inked only by 2014-15. So, in effect, we are now looking at inducting the first P-75I submarine by 2022 or so," he said.

This when the 30-year submarine-building plan approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in 1999 envisaged induction of 12 new submarines by 2012, followed by another dozen by 2030.

But 12 years down the line, not a single new submarine has been inducted. Even the ongoing Rs 23,562-crore 'Project-75' to build six French Scorpene submarines at MDL is running three years behind schedule, with the induction delayed to 2015-20.

The Navy will be left with just two to three of its existing 10 Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines by 2022. Consequently, even with the six Scorpenes, the nation will fall far short of the minimum of 18 conventional submarines required to deter Pakistan and China.



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