Project-17A Nilgiri-class Frigate Thread

flanker99

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Maybe you have some hope at 100km+ ranges, so all we have to do is make sure there is one sensor every hundred km along a line of the sea bed.
goodluck with that.

Underwater sonar do not see you hidden against the seabed background, but against the sky. They will detect your position far far accurately unless you are constantly dropping sonar decoys (which you are not going to do unless you know that you are being tracked, and in this case you won't... because of the filthy amount of range these have).
whats ur source?....there's still much to learn about how sound moves around underwater...that statement oozes confidence that many vets dont have...and can one keep sending target info from seabed arrays accurately to a torpedo that can be km's away?
AFAIK torps have to find the sub from its own sensors after being dropped
 

Tridev123

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Bro good luck finding them first...subs are far from being close to obsolescence ...sea bed arrays wont be enough ocean is too vast
I would like to draw attention to the use of decoys.
In aerial operations many times Luneberg lens are used to hide the actual RCS of stealth aircraft. To confuse the opponents attempts to obtain intelligence on the capability of stealth platforms.

Similarly decoys are an essential part of most modern MIRV and MARV equipped ICBM's. The enemy BMD interceptors sometimes target decoy re-entry vehicles and become ineffective.

Now we know how an sonar whether active or passive detects an enemy submarine. Since the physics behind the process is known. Why would it be impossible to develop unmanned underwater vehicles which could simulate the acoustic signatures of much bigger submarines and serve to confuse and mislead the sea bed sensors. Modern submarine designs incorporate capability to launch UUV(unmanned under water vehicles or drones). If the approximate location of the sea bed sensors is known, these UUV's which can simulate the shape, sound and metallic properties of regular submarines can be used to mislead the sensors. After all there is no visual contact or picture of the enemy submarine available. Everything depends on interpreting the sonar/electronic signals. We need the decoys to work only for a limited period while the submarine carries out its missions like firing SLBM's or torpedoes at an enemy ship.

Such decoy measures which can be adopted by submarines is not an fiction story.
Nobody imagined of radar invisible stealth aircraft even in the seventies but new technologies made it possible.
 

Bleh

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and can one keep sending target info from seabed arrays accurately to a torpedo that can be km's away?
No this is a big issue... some options have been explored like using optical cables cables to interconnect all the sensors with a operator base.

I actually knew a lot more on this subject, but I buggered off all those bookmarks at one point & now I am frankly much less equipped to properly answer all these 😭
 

Bleh

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I would like to draw attention to the use of decoys.
In aerial operations many times Luneberg lens are used to hide the actual RCS of stealth aircraft. To confuse the opponents attempts to obtain intelligence on the capability of stealth platforms.

Similarly decoys are an essential part of most modern MIRV and MARV equipped ICBM's. The enemy BMD interceptors sometimes target decoy re-entry vehicles and become ineffective.

Now we know how an sonar whether active or passive detects an enemy submarine. Since the physics behind the process is known. Why would it be impossible to develop unmanned underwater vehicles which could simulate the acoustic signatures of much bigger submarines and serve to confuse and mislead the sea bed sensors. Modern submarine designs incorporate capability to launch UUV(unmanned under water vehicles or drones). If the approximate location of the sea bed sensors is known, these UUV's which can simulate the shape, sound and metallic properties of regular submarines can be used to mislead the sensors. After all there is no visual contact or picture of the enemy submarine available. Everything depends on interpreting the sonar/electronic signals. We need the decoys to work only for a limited period while the submarine carries out its missions like firing SLBM's or torpedoes at an enemy ship.

Such decoy measures which can be adopted by submarines is not an fiction story.
Nobody imagined of radar invisible stealth aircraft even in the seventies but new technologies made it possible.
Lol I thought of this too!

Why the fuck aren't we making several large long-range & autonomous torpedos that will just float around out into the waters, mimicking the signature of submarines... since unlike surface fleet we cannot have immediate visual confirmation on them, there would be brutally effective in confusing the foe.
 

Akula

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Those could actually be used by low-end jump jets (just capable enough to do airstrikes), but we got no harrier replacement.
Chinks tried & failed with the J-18, but NLCA would make a gOod STOVL jet.

View attachment 100208


Edit: My bad, J-31 is just a stop-gap/export model. They're targeting J-26 prototype based on the J-18 experience, by 2025.
View attachment 100210View attachment 100212

(I secretly love the design)
J-18 was real?
 

flanker99

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Lol I thought of this too!

Why the fuck aren't we making several large long-range & autonomous torpedos that will just float around out into the waters, mimicking the signature of submarines... since unlike surface fleet we cannot have immediate visual confirmation on them, there would be brutally effective in confusing the foe.
could be related to communication we can send the decoy out but how will we communicate with it and move it underwater?...automation may hold the key but i dont know if we have the tech ready
 

Bleh

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could be related to communication we can send the decoy out but how will we communicate with it and move it underwater?...automation may hold the key but i dont know if we have the tech ready
Well it's technically a just decoy vehicle... you could just program a random path for it, for its next few weeks. After which it will come back to its home base or ampny predestinated rendezvous coordinates to be picked up
 

Gandaberunda

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Also P-8 the best ASW aircraft in the world.. which detect Chinese subs real easy.. That's why Navy is in love with these birds
Chinese subs are hell noisy. Don't think P8i needed to detect them as it would be an over kill. P8i is force multiplier and currently it's being used actively at ladhakh and North borders to identify pla movements and junk fighters
 

abingdonboy

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Nah.. We already have the sea-bed lined with surveillance sensors. Subs might find themselves obsolete soon.
Never talk in absolutes

subs are far from obsolete, they are still arguably the best bang for buck offensive platform you can get

The ocean is VAST, detecting a sun let alone tracking it is a horrendously difficult job and there are SO many factors that go along with it. It’s not as simple as, ping- sub x detected and tracked. What about thermal layers? Marine activity? Crawl speed?

oh and for every advancement in detection there will be an advancement from the other side. Yes Chinese subs are on the noisy side today but you think they are sitting still?

you think the Chinese won’t know about such detection grids?


as for SMART, it’s a very useful asset and the IN should invest heavily in it but it is not the silver bullet that some are trying to make out, please see this former submariner’s analysis on it, it gives the best idea of how it would be employed:



What really bugs me about the IN is they are on the brink of being one of the most capable ASW forces in the planet but they have let their ASW helo fleet rot (24 MH-60s changes nothing), they haven’t expanded their ASW corvette fleet, they don’t even have HWTs for their latest SSKs.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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Never talk in absolutes

subs are far from obsolete, they are still arguably the best bang for buck offensive platform you can get

The ocean is VAST, detecting a sun let alone tracking it is a horrendously difficult job and there are SO many factors that go along with it. It’s not as simple as, ping- sub x detected and tracked. What about thermal layers? Marine activity? Crawl speed?

oh and for every advancement in detection there will be an advancement from the other side. Yes Chinese subs are on the noisy side today but you think they are sitting still?

you think the Chinese won’t know about such detection grids?


as for SMART, it’s a very useful asset and the IN should invest heavily in it but it is not the silver bullet that some are trying to make out, please see this former submariner’s analysis on it, it gives the best idea of how it would be employed:



What really bugs me about the IN is they are on the brink of being one of the most capable ASW forces in the planet but they have let their ASW helo fleet rot (24 MH-60s changes nothing), they haven’t expanded their ASW corvette fleet, they don’t even have HWTs for their latest SSKs.
A repeat order of 24 additional MH-60 Romeos must be placed and then the Indian Navy should largely be concentrating on the IMRH project which it recently became a part of.
Those 16 ASW shallow water craft should be enough to take care of coastal ASW activities.
As discussed previously in the forum, Varunastra HWT integration is ongoing on the Kalvari class of submarines with help from Naval Group.
 

omaebakabaka

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On submarine front , we were completely bli d of our situation , problem is not money alone ,but lack of vision , we should have increased commonality among ship classes , one is french othrr is german and third is russian , the p 75 i should be french or russian to make commonality , as the aip and many components are of foreign origin bigger order will lead to dependencies in future , but as we have seen many times ,some indigenous submarine ssk are in deveolpment so it would be better if we place order for that class in 2026 or so and start delivery by 2030 , order can be un tranches but should be atleast 18 or 12 , not less
Totally, German shit needs to be discarded.....they are untrustworthy in doing any business with their mullah worshiping. Stick with French and Russian and Domestic. I think we are ok and still got time....there aren't that many threats to us from sea that can't be addressed. With US and China rivalry, we got a breather. Also lot of infra needs to be developed before the numbers are increased to levels to match China on some level of parity. It will cost money to do that and train people and there is limited budget and Covid certainly introduced a wrench
 

omaebakabaka

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Knowing the enemy subs and stopping them is two different things... When enemy subs fully armed lurking in your backyard waters even if you detect them tailing and taking them out is challenging as they move around anticipating to take out enemy assets.
I think autonomous underwater vehicles will change these things in a lot of ways just like drones are doing in the air....some of these things will become ineffective. New methods will come along from 1st rated powers followed by us. These drones at a minimum will put strain on lot of things in defending vital installations and what not....this threat will be magnitude more difficult in nature than air
 

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