Problems with Indian T-90s

[Archer]

Disagreement is part of a debate. Who is right and who is wrong is not the point. The point is, we should respectfully disagree and move on. A lot of leeway and leniency (in the language used in a post) is given, considering that every person can be passionate about something. It should, however, be limited to once in a while. It should not become a norm. Certain things are also better to be taken off-line. That was my point.

Dont disagree with that. Its just that some folks seem to be taking that liberty to extremes, especially the gent in question. Eitherways, this is going OT from the main point of this thread so I will stop.

 

[Ripples]

The heading of this thread "Indian T-90 in trouble" is making it look that a third rate piece of equipment has been acquired. It is most unsuitable for discussion on T-90 tanks.

On the contrary, it is first rate modern tank with all the bells and whistles which could be loaded on a tank. It is unfortunate that Russians did not design the tank for India. It was built as frontline tank for Russian and European fronts, hence air conditioning was unnecessary. That is not Russian fault, it is an indian army purchasers who did not see this problem. Russians do not face this problem in civilian even in civilian life hence they do not build air conditioners. That is why indian built air conditioner will be installed on these tanks. Also the old sights are being installed to install Israeli built sights. These are built desert warfare.

The problem is not the army complaining, it is immense number of "fanboys" on this forum and elsewhere who have not seen the business end of a gun, who latch on to minor issues and make them look like that the world is coming to an end. All tanks and other hardware needs a midlife upgrade. These tanks are undoing that upgrade. Newer one will be built to new specs.

T-90 does not take away versatility of Arjun 1 & 2. They both stay as frontline but with a different mission.

I suggest we change the title of this thread and proceed with the discussion.

And WHO forced Indian army at the gun point to purchase this so called "unsuitable" talk ? Or I have to assume that Indian army does not have enough technological knowledge to evaluate a tank? Or it was an inept drafting of the contract that is responsible for this ? Or may be this 40/50/85 % ToT is a hoax , and it is because of the DRDO everything has fallen apart. I find no issues with Russians here. They did what is right for their economy.

 

[Blood+]

And WHO forced Indian army at the gun point to purchase this so called "unsuitable" talk ? Or I have to assume that Indian army does not have enough technological knowledge to evaluate a tank? Or it was an inept drafting of the contract that is responsible for this ? Or may be this 40/50/85 % ToT is a hoax , and it is because of the DRDO everything has fallen apart. I find no issues with Russians here. They did what is right for their economy.

How does the DRDO even comes to the picture her bro??

 

[sgarg]

How does the DRDO even comes to the picture her bro??

I agree that T-90 is a good tank. The T-series is a successful series and Russians are quite good in building tanks.

It is also OK if sights are replaced.

It is natural to question Indian Army evaluation as Indian Army knows the conditions in India. The evaluation of the tank needs to take care of the environmental conditions.

People are miffed at Indian Army for ignoring locally made products and/or not participating in local development. Army needs to be told to develop local vendors for its needs.

 

[sgarg]

India values friendship with Russia. Nothing has changed there.

Let us dissociate military equipment buys from the discourse about friendship with Russia. We do not buy equipment just because we are friendly with somebody. We buy equipment because we have a need.

The dynamics has changed because 1. Russian stuff is no longer cheap, 2. Indian industry has matured.

We do not need to discuss too much about the past, but I believe the domestic industry has the capacity now to satisfy most of defence needs. When I say most - I include the capability of the private sector.

The forces need to go past brochures and make honest estimation of their needs based on the operational requirements. These have to be matched with the capabilities of the industry to arrive at specs of the equipment. The keyword is "pragmatism".

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The T-90 tank: Piercing the army's Armour of deception
Thursday, 4 February 2010

Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90's ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India's pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army's recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90's thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn't work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90's fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s' drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

"It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank," says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. "Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further."

If the Arjun performs strongly in next month's comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.

Source : Broadsword: The T-90 tank: Piercing the army's armour of deception

 

[Kunal Biswas]

T-90 imaging devices unable to withstand Indian conditions
Sunday, Jul 27, 2003

In most trials since, this critical part of the T-90 S reportedly failed to withstand `Indian conditions' — the 50C plus temperatures in the Rajasthan deserts — and this would render the machines virtually `blind.' , The Russians had fitted the T-90 S with the French built vision devices that were reportedly made for European conditions — where even 30C plus temperatures are rare. When tested in the Rajasthan deserts, these failed repeatedly.

Each of the imaging systems cost about Rs. two crores, nearly 20 per cent of the cost of the tank. Sources said that as per the current contract terms, if these systems fail, experts would have to come down from Russia to fix it — an impossible situation in battle conditions. Again, the contract does not speak of transfer of technology for these critical components, an oversight yet to be rectified by the top brass in the Indian military and defence establishment. This is despite the fact that the last inter-Governmental meet between India and Russia was held last week. The group meets once every six months, alternatively in Russia and India, to discuss production schedules and problems faced by both sides. HVF and Defence Ministry top brass had attended the last meeting, in Moscow.

But there are enough indications that both the Army and the ordnance bosses are not happy with the present situation. In their discussions, one suggestion that apparently emerged recently was air-conditioning of the tank. But experts say this is more easily said than done."You look at the T-90 tanks. There is really no space to put anything more in there. If you need to accommodate an air-conditioning system, then one has to remove something from the machine,"

Source : The Hindu : MBT: imaging devices unable to withstand Indian conditions

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With DRDO Help
13 March 2014

The Indian Army has received approval from its Ministry of Defence (MoD) to move ahead with its planned upgrade of more than 600 Russian-built T-90 main battle tanks (MBTs).More than $250m are scheduled to be spent on installation of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO)-built air-conditioning systems, and replacement of the tanks' existing thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems.

One Army official said the absence of an air conditioning system in T-90 tanks caused damage to their thermal imaging systems during operation in hot climates.
"The Russians were asked to fit air conditioning systems, but the attempt was unsuccessful."

Indian Army retired brigadier general and defense analyst Arun Sehgal said: "DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights.
"The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful."

Source : Indian Army authorised to advance T-90 tanks upgrade - Army Technology

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help
Mar. 10, 2014

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.which will be developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks' existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

"DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights," said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

"The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful," Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, "The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage."

Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, "A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank."

The indigenous production of about 1,000 additional T-90s has been contracted, but production has not yet begun.

"The Russians have not provided full-scale [intellectual property rights] and are withholding some critical designs; thus, full-scale indigenization has been held up in Avadi," Bhonsle said.

An official of the Ordnance Factory Board, which administers the Avadi factory, said the Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008. â– 

Source : Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition ..

he Indian Defence Ministry — faced with a shortage of ammunition for its Russian-made T-90 tanks — has no choice but to give in to Russian terms and purchase marked-up ammo from Moscow, an MoD source said. The MoD reluctantly agreed to the deal last month, despite the fact that Russia hiked the price by 20 percent and refused to accept offset obligations.

Besides jacking up the price, the Russians also refused to transfer technology for making the rounds to the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), a demand India has been making for the past five years, the MoD source added. A diplomat from the Russian Embassy merely said the sale of T-90 ammunition was on agreed-upon terms, and refused to give details.

"There were reportedly multiple problems in procurement of T-90 tank ammunition," said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst. "The ammunition produced in India was not compatible with the fire-control system of the tanks, thus these have to be modified. The Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO] has not been able to resolve the problem, hence there is a challenge.

"The OFB has failed to produce ammunition for T-90 tanks because it is far more sophisticated than ammunition for Russian made T-72 tanks," Bhonsle said. "Because in the case of T-90 ammunition, there are intricate linkages with the fire-control computer."

Source : India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition | Defense News | defensenews.com


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Highly Related article >>

The T-90 tank: Piercing the army's Armour of deception
Thursday, 4 February 2010

Even more alarmingly,[ the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90's fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s' drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

"It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank," says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. "Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further."

Source : Broadsword: The T-90 tank: Piercing the army's armour of deception

 

[sgarg]

My viewpoint is that India expecting full TOT for an equipment currently the prime one for another country is unreasonable.

I do not know the terms under which T-90 deal was done but may be Russia over-committed.

India will produce world class equipment ONLY with local R&D and production. Otherwise India will always have second-grade weapons.

 

[sgarg]

The word "TOT" is used for deception in India. Mostly it means that components will be imported and put together.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[anupamsurey]

see this is what a short sightedness is, or this can be another reeking corruption......they purchase these tanks without checking the ammunition good one...lets cut some no of these tanks to accomdate the price..we practically purchase junk in the name of war machines and then some ruski says that we need to get permission from them to use these weapons.....good friendship there.

 

[sgarg]

Does it not show bad planning by Indian Army?? All the points being discussed here - 1. ac 2. compatibility of Indian made ammo, 3. gun sights are issues that could have been discovered in a proper evaluation.

So army bought a tank because it could move and it could fire. Where it fired did not matter. And kept on buying this tank more and more just to kill the local Arjun tank. This is splendid.

We have leave the past behind and we know the issues between services and DRDO and OFB. But I think people need to learn from mistakes.

 

[Parrot]

"The Indian Defence Ministry — faced with a shortage of ammunition for its Russian-made T-90 tanks, coupled with an inability to produce ammunition at home — has no choice but to give in to Russian terms and purchase marked-up ammo from Moscow, an MoD source said.
The MoD reluctantly agreed to the deal last month, despite the fact that Russia hiked the price by 20 percent and refused to accept offset obligations.
Russia will receive a $197 million contract for the fin-stabilized armor-piercing discarding sabot. In 2011, the asking price for the same order was $163 million.
Besides jacking up the price, the Russians also refused to transfer technology for making the rounds to the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), a demand India has been making for the past five years, the MoD source added." - Defence News -India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition

"Jaago ! Jaago! mere des vasi – dekh kaise loot rahe hai hamare des ko."

"Wake up – please open your eyes - see the truth" - is all I can say to my brothers who make decisions for the defense of our nation.

The world is laughing at us due our lack of foresight and when we buy products like the T-90, instead of our very own fantastic home built tank – Arjun . We own all the rights for the Arjun – manufacturing, parts, ammo etc. and nobody can dictate terms to us for it.

During tough situations like Kargil we dont have to depend on other countries to provide us with equipment to protect ourselves. We save money and valuable foreign exchange. The money (our tax money) remains in our country creating jobs and growth. Products, parts and ammo can be mobilized quickly rather than waiting for it come from other nations where delays may occur. There is also a risk of those ordered products from other nations being intercepted and destroyed. This scenario can be averted when we use our own products as we control all access and transportation. Sanctions also do not bother us with our home grown products. We do not have to be coerced into paying extra for our own product be it parts, ammo or even permissions such as "right-to-use".

Without going into specifics and as it has been already been discussed repeatedly in this forum - our Arjun has by far, a multitude of better qualities and is more potent when compared to the T-90. It has proven to be a better performing tank than the T-90 and also gives us a - better bang for the buck (literally). The Arjun is a superior tank – it may not be the very best in the world – but it is definitely in the top ten. Further, it is better than what our immediate hostile neighbors have and can beat them in the field when faced with the situation. We need to just order more of our Arjun's and say enough is enough to the T-90's. We can also develop our own smaller tank with the DRDO, IIT, Indian industry - the Tata's, Kalyani Group, L&T etc. working together. There is no shortage of talent or resources in our country – this can be done.

Further I think it is even possible to reverse engineer the T-90 tank ammo if needed or even develop one of our own which may prove to be more effective – it just needs to get into the hands of the proper people and organizations to develop it and our systems for getting it made. If we can put Mangalyaan in the orbit of Mars – we can definitely produce tank rounds. The OFB's are unfortunately, still living with mindsets of the old and it is time they pull up their socks and get to work. In event they cannot perform – well then, there is enough talent available in the private sector that can develop and produce what we need.

"Jaago! Jaago! mere des vasi."

 

[Khagesh]

National security is paramount, and DRDO has to attempt to do whatever is asked of it. If national security were not an issue, DRDO would have been fully justified in refusing to touch any of the expensive and imported arm candies procured by these IA and IAF officials.

It is incredible actually how a small bunch of guys can hijack the whole system. The faithful men in uniform get quietened by the show and grand claims of this cabal about being the leaders of the armed forces. This is not actually unlike what we civvies have endured during the UPA years. People who understood knew UPA-1 itself was bad and UPA-2 would be hell but people had to keep quite and then we had the unfolding of the longest line of scams duriing UPA-2. Till questioned back UPA was the master of our fates. And since they were elected they carried the halo of unquestionable leadership of the nation.

A faith in your own leadership is must but then this faith must be born out of consistent and equally faithful questioning. A blind faith is no faith its zealotry.

But unlike with the UPA which had no real control over this populous country, this small cabal has a strong grip on the plans of the armed forces and through that on the whole nation. These unelected people who have remained unfaithful to the very soldier who reposes faith in them have almost always acted like our masters. It is incredible how honest people in armed forces remain unnamed and the most conceited kind take all the limelight. I was badly hurt to know how Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Hamilton Khokhar died alone, why? Because test piloting is a dead end career move. Nobody in the hierarchy ever cared for these guys. They chose that path only because of the inherent force of their nature. And who got the ambassadorship to Norway. The guy who claims he will make Pilatus and MMRCA in BRDs.

The IA structure is no different in that regard. The most driven of these end up in either commando schools or in the COIN but never do they find any role in the staff. We are so big today that Pakistan and China may perhaps never attack us in future. The incessant insurgency promoted by these 2 countries itself is an admission that upfront they hold no chance, esp. fighting alone against us. And yet we have the kind of people managing our army who cannot even plan for boots and ammo, merely because they would rather keep aside money for their latest import fads. Why must these people be leading. What have these people contributed except to point at China to import American weapons and to point at Pakistan to import Russian weapons. Luckily for us IA deals with a much bigger mass of people in the armed forces and IA is much more difficult to subvert compared to the IAF. Warna kasar to koi nahi chodi gayi hai.

 

[EXPERT]

We cant blame only DRDO here, MOD and Army also are responsible for this unsuccessful venture. And I don't think that Arjun will be scraped so easily, we have invested heavily in MBT programme. FMBT and other programmes will be based upon this only, at least now we have some technological Base ready..

 

[pmaitra]

It is incredible actually how a small bunch of guys can hijack the whole system. The faithful men in uniform get quietened by the show and grand claims of this cabal about being the leaders of the armed forces. This is not actually unlike what we civvies have endured during the UPA years. People who understood knew UPA-1 itself was bad and UPA-2 would be hell but people had to keep quite and then we had the unfolding of the longest line of scams duriing UPA-2. Till questioned back UPA was the master of our fates. And since they were elected they carried the halo of unquestionable leadership of the nation.

A faith in your own leadership is must but then this faith must be born out of consistent and equally faithful questioning. A blind faith is no faith its zealotry.

But unlike with the UPA which had no real control over this populous country, this small cabal has a strong grip on the plans of the armed forces and through that on the whole nation. These unelected people who have remained unfaithful to the very soldier who reposes faith in them have almost always acted like our masters. It is incredible how honest people in armed forces remain unnamed and the most conceited kind take all the limelight. I was badly hurt to know how Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Hamilton Khokhar died alone, why? Because test piloting is a dead end career move. Nobody in the hierarchy ever cared for these guys. They chose that path only because of the inherent force of their nature. And who got the ambassadorship to Norway. The guy who claims he will make Pilatus and MMRCA in BRDs.

The IA structure is no different in that regard. The most driven of these end up in either commando schools or in the COIN but never do they find any role in the staff. We are so big today that Pakistan and China may perhaps never attack us in future. The incessant insurgency promoted by these 2 countries itself is an admission that upfront they hold no chance, esp. fighting alone against us. And yet we have the kind of people managing our army who cannot even plan for boots and ammo, merely because they would rather keep aside money for their latest import fads. Why must these people be leading. What have these people contributed except to point at China to import American weapons and to point at Pakistan to import Russian weapons. Luckily for us IA deals with a much bigger mass of people in the armed forces and IA is much more difficult to subvert compared to the IAF. Warna kasar to koi nahi chodi gayi hai.

We cant blame only DRDO here, MOD and Army also are responsible for this unsuccessful venture. And I don't think that Arjun will be scraped so easily, we have invested heavily in MBT programme. FMBT and other programmes will be based upon this only, at least now we have some technological Base ready..

I would have assumed that it is common sense that no producer shall help its competitor.

Why should DRDO try to fix problems with tanks that compete with DRDO's own tanks? That it is doing so is only because it is a government organization.

Here is an interesting hypothesis: I cannot imagine a tank made by Ashok Leyland with problems being fixed by Tata Motors thus leading to Tata Motors' own tank not being bought. Yet, we have to read accusations that DRDO was not able to fix this and that with T-72. Truly bizarre.

 

[3The Crossbow]

I would have assumed that it is common sense that no producer shall help its competitor.

Why should DRDO try to fix problems with tanks that compete with DRDO's own tanks? That it is doing so is only because it is a government organization.

Here is an interesting hypothesis: I cannot imagine a tank made by Ashok Leyland with problems being fixed by Tata Motors thus leading to Tata Motors' own tank not being bought. Yet, we have to read accusations that DRDO was not able to fix this and that with T-72. Truly bizarre.

well that is why DRDO is paid even if they do nothing right.. because it is a gov organization.

having said that arjun is gone now. though i believe indigenous project must be initiated but its better to wait for better than wasting millions again now.

we need to realise that arjun will have limited mobility only in punjab and certain parts of rajasthan the cost of arjun is very high compare to its edge over t-90 for e.g we can buy two t-90 over one arjun and perhaps 2.5 - 3 seeing the increase in its cost since so many years. also we will have to develop infra to support its movement across considering it's close to 70 tonne weight

also we have a T- 90 bhishm production line running and i am sure we may be increasing its order by 2019 - 2020 or may go for armata by that time.

so best option is to remove option of armata get a better tank by jv in quickest time possible. though i believe we should have made it mandatory to have drdo as partner in this but if not then drdo should choose one foreign partner for itself and come up with its design.