Problems with Indian T-90s

[pmaitra]

@3The Crossbow,

True. Public Sector Units get paid even when they fail to do things right. However, Public Sector Units also get paid when they do things wrong from a corporate point of view, i.e. assisting a competitor.

In the specific case of Arjun, DRDO did more rights than wrongs.

T-90 is running and is a viable platform only because DRDO was able to offer their Kanchan Armour and fit an Air Conditioner.

I am not against Armata. I think it is a great innovation. I am simply against importing it, when (1) we already have FMBT in the planning stages, and alternatively (2) we can build something like Armata in India.

The biggest problem is with the hiring process in the army. There has to be a serious re-think on what type of candidates are being inducted into the army, and more importantly, what type of candidates are being promoted beyond the Colonel rank. There has to be an end to this propensity to import foreign weapons even when they are proven to be inferior to indigenous alternatives, and we have a few examples already.

OT: Your nomme-de-plume is rather interesting. Why the '3' before the 'The?' Was it a typo?

 

[ersakthivel]

well that is why DRDO is paid even if they do nothing right.. because it is a gov organization.

having said that arjun is gone now. though i believe indigenous project must be initiated but its better to wait for better than wasting millions again now.

we need to realise that arjun will have limited mobility only in punjab and certain parts of rajasthan the cost of arjun is very high compare to its edge over t-90 for e.g we can buy two t-90 over one arjun and perhaps 2.5 - 3 seeing the increase in its cost since so many years. also we will have to develop infra to support its movement across considering it's close to 70 tonne weight

also we have a T- 90 bhishm production line running and i am sure we may be increasing its order by 2019 - 2020 or may go for armata by that time.

so best option is to remove option of armata get a better tank by jv in quickest time possible. though i believe we should have made it mandatory to have drdo as partner in this but if not then drdo should choose one foreign partner for itself and come up with its design.

other than T-72 which has 40 ton weight no other tank in the world can cross a 40 ton rated older culverts and bridges of indian roads. Even T-90 which is lighter than Arjun,can not cross those bridges without engineering support, which is the same case with Arjun.

So should we restrict all our buys to T-72s!!!

The new Armata has the same number of road wheels as Arjun and is supposed to weigh over 55 tons. So how do you expect IA to produce a 40 ton space age tank?It is a road to utopia , which only a fool will take.

T-90 is not capable of giving the same reliability, safety , accuracy and long time total lifecycle cost advantage of Arjun in any near future,which is even accepted by IA which after two decades can not get a solution to T-90s heat susceptible electronics and looking for an unobtainable rugged Ac solution to rectify it.

just understand the real issues before posting spurious stuff.

 

[ersakthivel]

We cant blame only DRDO here, MOD and Army also are responsible for this unsuccessful venture. And I don't think that Arjun will be scraped so easily, we have invested heavily in MBT programme. FMBT and other programmes will be based upon this only, at least now we have some technological Base ready..

Why is Arjun an unsuccessful venture?

 

[ersakthivel]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...y-arjun-t72-frcv-medium-weight-fmbt/29208793/

India's Tank Plan Clouds Future of Arjun

By Vivek Raghuvanshi 1:41 p.m. EDT June 27, 2015

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army's plan to develop and build a medium-weight main battle tank to replace more than 2,500 Russian T-72s has raised questions about the future of the homemade Arjun tank and likely would kill a decade-old proposal by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to build a tank, according to analysts and officials.

The Indian Army this month floated a global request for information to seek partners to design the new tank under a program called Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV). As a medium-weight platform it would weigh 40-plus tons, compared with the Arjun, which weighs 60 tons.

"The proposed FRCV is in the medium category and is more likely to be around the T-90 platform than the Arjun Mark-II platform, which is getting close to the medium-heavy/heavy category," said Anil Chait, retired Indian Army lieutenant general. "Designing and developing the product around proposed qualitative requirements afresh would suggest that we may be looking toward the end of the Arjun saga," he said.

However, Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said the Arjun will progress from the current Mark-1 level to Mark-3.

"The lead time for the FRCV to be manufactured, if all goes well, is likely to be approximately 15 years or so. This provides adequate scope for the Arjun series to be progressed to at least Mark-3. Moreover, there is a need in the Indian Army for an Arjun class of tank."

While no Ministry of Defence official would comment on the fate of the decade-old Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT) project to be developed by DRDO, an Army official said FRCV has "surely killed" the FMBT.

The FMBT, intended to be in the 50-plus ton category, was also meant to replace the T-72s.

"The FRCV seems to be a completely new project which possibly junks the FMBT, which was being worked upon by the DRDO or may be a lead to the developing agency to add on to the existing work that has already been done on the same," Bhonsle said.

"I surely see Americans, Russians, French, Germans, Koreans and British participating along with Indian companies in stand-alone or joint venture mode. We could see leading companies from there which are involved with tank design, participating in it," Chait said.

Unlike the earlier tank effort, the FRCV does not restrict production to the DRDO. Domestic defense companies in tie-ups with overseas defense companies can serve as the production agencies.

"As this is an open competition, private agencies could also be roped in to develop the tank. The best option would be for DRDO designing and developing the same with a foreign partner as it is best placed technically to do so. For an Indian private company in collaboration with a foreign partner it would be a Greenfield venture," where the foreign company would construct new facilities for the project, Bhonsle said.

The Army plans to begin induction of the basic FRCV by 2025-27, which would be the platform on which numerous variants would be developed to serve different functions. These variants will include a tracked light tank, a wheeled version, a bridge layer tank, a trawl tank and mine plows, armored recovery vehicle, self-propelled gun, anti-aircraft tank, artillery observation vehicle, engineer reconnaissance vehicle, and armored ambulance.

According to the request for information, FRCV will be executed in three stages: design, prototype developmental and production.

The request says the design agency and developing agency can be separate entities. The best design will be chosen and given to the nominated development agency for prototype production. The selected prototype will be given to the production agency or agencies for bulk production.

Shankar Roy Chowdhury, retired Army general and former service chief, said the paramount requirement for the tank is survivability.

"Russian designers sought to achieve this [survivability] by smaller size [three-man crew and lighter armor], lower profile and speed. The West preferred larger turrets, hence thicker armor, heavier tanks. The test for both designs has been the Arab-Israeli wars and the gulf war. The Russian designs did not do too well. Blame that on the crews if you like," Roy Chowdhury said.

The most important requirement, however, is that the future FRCV must be indigenously designed, Roy Chowdhury said.

FRCV is a perfect stupid way and is just a figleaf for procuring armata in future and stalling funding for DRDo's new FMBT program citing the FRCV tender..

No cutting edge tank maker in the world will design a tank for just fees and hand over all crucial tech to IA , which will float another tender to select a different manufacturer to produce it.

because if they transfer those right s to IA, they will lose all their exports right and vest all rights to IA, which is something no tank maker will do.

because french simply refused to part with even non core tech for 20 billion rafale deal with the coming era of stealth fighter, Then which tank maker will part with all IP rights of a cutting edge 40 ton futuristic tank design?

And IA is totally incompetent to lead this tender because it has not given any specific specs to evaluate all the designs. They neither specified weight , armor protection level, crew men etc, ect.Everything is vague and subject to spurious interpretation..

If IA was so sure of procuring its FRCV in this novel method, why it did not adopt the method for its failed MICW tender, bullet proof vest tender, LUH tender and spike tender?

Answer-they know perfectly well that the FRCV "compete for design with no advance info on specs , transfer IP right to IA for job work fees , with production by another tank maker" is a perfectly unworkable in real world.

They know they cant get spike, MICW,bullet proof vests and LUH in time if they use FRCV route.

Then why are they doing it on FRCV.

Simple just stall the budget sanction for DRDO's FMBT by citing the FRCV tender, whale away a decade on foreign tours and commission seeking endeavors, and if they have no winner in hand(they surely wont, if we go by the much simpler bullet proof, LUH, MICW tender fiascos!!!) cite the urgent fall in tank numbers and ask for immediate import of thousands of Armata from pliable future government.

they are just fooling manohar parrikar by giving the ruse of "make in india" campaign of Modi govt.

Simple-question which host government abroad ,will allow its FMBT design winner to transfer the rights of newer gun, armor tech, ammo tech, FCS tech , engine , transmission tech to IA.

Answer-None will, if IA can get a company from mars there is a possibility of securing those rights!!!

let me see how long they can manage to fool the new govt with this FRCV tender fraud.


That is why I call this tender a fraud on the nation.

 

[blue marlin]

Why is Arjun an unsuccessful venture?

to answer your question it would be best if you read this article here: http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/breakdown-whats-happening-with-indias-tank-force/

and also:http://thediplomat.com/2015/06/is-indias-main-battle-tank-finally-doomed/

 

[cannonfodder]

The reason for shortage of parts replacement is well discussed on DFI. IA has ordered limited 124 tanks and factories cannot keep manufacturing components with such limited orders.

Arjun vs T90 trials already confirms Arjun performs better in many areas. However, it means no foreign trips for some people. I suggest you folks read through some more threads to analyse pros and cons of Arjun MBT. The excuse that India does not have logistical support to deploy Arjun have been discussed at length therefore read them before coming to any conclusion.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-playing-field-t90-vs-arjun-cag-report.65927/

to answer your question it would be best if you read this article here: http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/breakdown-whats-happening-with-indias-tank-force/

and also:http://thediplomat.com/2015/06/is-indias-main-battle-tank-finally-doomed/

 

[Bornubus]

@3The Crossbow,

True. Public Sector Units get paid even when they fail to do things right. However, Public Sector Units also get paid when they do things wrong from a corporate point of view, i.e. assisting a competitor.

In the specific case of Arjun, DRDO did more rights than wrongs.

T-90 is running and is a viable platform only because DRDO was able to offer their Kanchan Armour and fit an Air Conditioner.

Do you have the source ?


........................

 

[pmaitra]

Do you have the source ?


........................

Source has already been provided in this thread. I will present them again, but please read the thread.

http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/india/...s-main-battle-tank-programs-10879-748711.html

 

[anoop_mig25]

Source has already been provided in this thread. I will present them again, but please read the thread.

http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/india/...s-main-battle-tank-programs-10879-748711.html

Ie DRDO is doing so many changes to T-90 to fit in Indian condition then whats use of buying more t-90s just order more arjun 1-followed by arjun 2.


pak are allready having their al-kahid -3

 

[pmaitra]

Ie DRDO is doing so many changes to T-90 to fit in Indian condition then whats use of buying more t-90s just order more arjun 1-followed by arjun 2.


pak are allready having their al-kahid -3

Well, we have had a long debates in the T-90 vs Arjun thread. Frankly, I am tired of this debate.

My only wish is India should be self sufficient in producing armaments and weapons.

 

[Panjab47]

@anoop_mig25 @pmaitra India may be doing so many t-90 for one reason:

One thesaker.is under article on russian defense modernization I read a comment which said:

India & Russia have plan where many tanks for Russia are assembled by India & even have agreement to ship back some t-90s after they are replaced by MK2.

 

[Bahamut]

Ie DRDO is doing so many changes to T-90 to fit in Indian condition then whats use of buying more t-90s just order more arjun 1-followed by arjun 2.


pak are allready having their al-kahid -3

T 90 is a lighter tank and easier to transport ,I have talked to commander of T 90 and the cite that T 90 as a package is better then Arjun as it can be used in many terrain including jungle and mountain vs desert only for Arjun .Well that what I heard .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Armored officer sounds one of those who only served in T-tanks, Ask them who are serving in Arjuns as they have both tank`s experience ..

Btw, T-90 is lighter by a few tons and has greater ground pressure ..

T 90 is a lighter tank and easier to transport ,I have talked to commander of T 90 and the cite that T 90 as a package is better then Arjun as it can be used in many terrain including jungle and mountain vs desert only for Arjun .Well that what I heard .

 

[garg_bharat]

T90 is a good and contemporary tank. There is no reason to worry if Army wants more T90.

Arjun is also ordered and more units will get Arjun.

I think issue is not tanks. India has adequate number of tanks. Issue is artillery, radars, Sam etc.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am not sure abt your conclusion, Suggest you to read the thread for better understanding ..

You can start abt arty and others in other threads, But this is for T-90 issues and demerits ..

 

[garg_bharat]

well that is why DRDO is paid even if they do nothing right.. because it is a gov organization.

having said that arjun is gone now. though i believe indigenous project must be initiated but its better to wait for better than wasting millions again now.

we need to realise that arjun will have limited mobility only in punjab and certain parts of rajasthan the cost of arjun is very high compare to its edge over t-90 for e.g we can buy two t-90 over one arjun and perhaps 2.5 - 3 seeing the increase in its cost since so many years. also we will have to develop infra to support its movement across considering it's close to 70 tonne weight

also we have a T- 90 bhishm production line running and i am sure we may be increasing its order by 2019 - 2020 or may go for armata by that time.

so best option is to remove option of armata get a better tank by jv in quickest time possible. though i believe we should have made it mandatory to have drdo as partner in this but if not then drdo should choose one foreign partner for itself and come up with its design.

Yesterday night I saw two T-72 being carried on what looked like commercial flatbed trucks on NH-8.

Even I was surprised to see that commercial trucks are being used.

The fact remains that Army likes that T-72 is lightweight, so it has greater options in transportation.

I said in 2014 on this message board that Army should go for a light tank of 35-40 tons.

The turn of events clearly is in that direction.

You need a tank with active protection system, not only thick armour. Armour can be medium thickness but a protection system is must.

 

[Bahamut]

The Armored officer sounds one of those who only served in T-tanks, Ask them who are serving in Arjuns as they have both tank`s experience ..

Btw, T-90 is lighter by a few tons and has greater ground pressure ..

I did ,they agree on fact that for desert warefare Arjun is better but even Arjun commander admit outside the desert T 90 is better.Arjun Mk2 is 68 ton while T 90 45 ton according to wiki .Aheavy tank also means more maintainces.As for latest T 90Sm there are a lot of improvement .Even Armata will have a ligter version for airboon troops.

 

[Bornubus]

According to Military factory the new T 90M Bhishma produced in Avadi has latest Gun 24a6M - 5 which can fire long Rod penetrators.

2.Drdo ERA MK 1/2 same as Arjun instead of Russian K5

3.kanchan Armor same as Arjun

4.OFB FSAPDS based on Israeli CL 3254

 

[harsh]

http://www.defencenews.in/article/W...90-Syrian-rebel-video-shows-dramatic-hit-3155

 

[Kunal Biswas]

T-90 made in India is around 50-52 tons, Arjun is a MBT like others not a heavy and maintenance friendly as a priority by Army as supervised and directed the design by Indian Army itself, Their are some 900 plus T-72 are not operational due to lack of spare and maintenance ..

It is Army who are setting the requirements for MK2, And they know adding more stuff will add more weight, If MK2 is 68 tons is because Army wanted it to be 68tons, Their was no specific requirement to make MBT lighter and never proposed ..

The purchase of T-90MS provides nothing special over MK2, The excuse of buying these tanks is to operate them in cold Himalayas as some lobby guy termed Arjun as desert tank and cannot operate in cold and other regions and no transport can do the job, These kind of things are been dissected and exposed in Arjun MK1 thread in details ..

I rather wait to see MK3 / FMBT , Rather expecting Gov to do same mistake as did with T-72M1 back in 80s then T-90S in 2000 and waiting to do this again ..

All the links are provided in this thread, Go through them and you will not talk abt T-90 import again ..

I did ,they agree on fact that for desert warefare Arjun is better but even Arjun commander admit outside the desert T 90 is better.Arjun Mk2 is 68 ton while T 90 45 ton according to wiki .Aheavy tank also means more maintainces.As for latest T 90Sm there are a lot of improvement .Even Armata will have a ligter version for airboon troops.

=====================

Indian T-90 use 2A46M not 2A46M-5 used by Russian, Tot was never acquired and ARDE make barrels which are based on 2A46M used both on T-72M1 and T-90 made by Avadi ..

Required details are their in T-90 vs Arjun thread and this ..

According to Military factory the new T 90M Bhishma produced in Avadi has latest Gun 24a6M - 5 which can fire long Rod penetrators.