Problems with Indian T-90s

[Kunal Biswas]

This thread is meant for T-90 deficiencies, Lets focus on that ..

 

[Blackwater]

t-90 was never meant for desert . its made for cold areas. middle man played its part again

 

[Twinblade]

ARDE is testing a new ammunition for T-90. IA's ammunition woes will be over soon.

 

[Hari Sud]

Is the T 90 getting its upgrades of air conditioning, thermal sights and other electronics etc. or not?

Hate to see this urgently needed upgrade in RFP and testing stage. Babus would have to spend extra hour every day and take golfing out of their head during office hours.

 

[sgarg]

Please read Press Information Bureau English Releases

The takeaways from this article:

1. "As suggested by Army after AUCRT trials, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer)."

Is the same done for T-90. Doubt it. Nobody should advise band-aid approach, buy a defective equipment and then keep on patching it.

2. Separate assembly line was built for Arjun. So there is no interference with T-90 production.

3. 124 tanks were delivered between 2007 and 2010. So we can take the higher end of your 20-30 estimate. At 30 per year, the delivery should take 4 years. Can you provide any references for your 8 year figure.

4. With the war like conditions at Russian periphery, and the need for Russian army to modernize, the situation with T-90 is no longer comfortable. It is more than likely that Russian factories will give preference to local demand.

 

[sgarg]

I was referring to T-90 components that still come from Russia. What is the % of indigenisation in T-90?

The flaw in Arjun tank story is that it should have never made by HVF. The whole public sector suffers from lack of productivity.

Why does it take 4 years to deliver first tank after order is placed. I am surprised that an aircraft - Tejas (which is more complex than a tank) can be delivered 11 months after placing order. Imported components cannot be a problem as Germany is very good in flexible manufacturing (source of engine and transmission).

 

[Ray]

This might help understand tank manufacture, upgrades and maintenance and what it involves.

Main Battle Tank - M1, M1A1, and M1A2 Abrams

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Every T-90 operating in the field has something missing, The tank was forced imported with a bang on media, Those who raised questions quickly silenced by former Gov moles who still existed in force ..

Light tank were essential in Arunachal areas where T-90 cannot even set foot on, The deployment of T-72 over Arunachal and Tar region are very limited areas ..

Rest of the areas are defenseless due to lack of light tanks, PLA do operated there wheeled Assault Guns in these areas ..

FMBT GSQR is till not developed by Army, Army is more interested in Arjun MK3 concept based on Proved MK1 ..

T-90S require extensive upgrades- and their number is huge-
New T-90S can only be for new strike crops WRT Pakistan border-
Since upgraded T-90S would be about 52 ton- using them in NE would be a logistical mistake-
A Tank vs Tank battle is highly unlikely on the Chinese fronts- so a T-72 would be ideal choice as it has been for a long time-
Long term solution for Chinese front would be FICVs with APS-

Arjun with 120mm smoothbore gun, and other advancements over Mk2 version would be Arjun mk3- It would be able to enter towns and survive town warfare(like Merkava mk4)- Any big T-90S order would only happen If the mk3 version is late- last known to me was that the design is ready and army being consulted on number of crew 3 or 4-

True FMBT which is a concept of 2 crew in capsule with unmanned turret would be ready only by 2025-

 

[Kunal Biswas]

TATA is already offering FMBT under buy and make catagory, What is important here is TATA can make MBT and IFV but cannot design them, TATA, Mahindra and others are simply under Buy and Make catagory ..

If somebody says that Tata cannot design a tank, I can understand. But only a fool can say Tata cannot build a tank. There is a huge difference between designing and manufacturing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, Their are some shortcomings ..

1. Till today we have to import Rounds, Explosive reactive Armour and Gunner thermal sights ..
2. The tank has no cooling system for electronics nor crew due to this its thermal sight malfunctioning till date this has been due to restricted tot ..
3. The tank has gain more weight due to Kanchan Armour and developed more ground pressure than what it was before compare to Original Russian counterparts ..
4. Case of the Invar missile, no technology transfer has been given for the laser beam-riding guidance. And the kit provided were defective hence limited Missile firing capability ..
5. Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008. Rest are being done from Arjun project by DRDO ..

The tank we have today as MBT, Is somehow working, According to upgrade they are simply rectifying the issues almost everything about the tank ( Armour, Firepower, Mobility ) by spending millions after buying them by spending millions .. ?

Source : Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com

A range of facilities feed into HVF's T-90S production line. Two OFB factories in Kanpur build the gun and breach block. Another in Jabalpur builds the recoil system, while another one in Tiruchiralapplli fabricates the 12.7 millimetre air defence gun. The sophisticated thermal imaging sights and gunner's sights come from OFB's Opto-Electronics Factory in Dehradun. The gun stabilizer, which allows the tank to fire accurately while moving, comes from Bharat Electronics Ltd.

Within Avadi, HVF builds major components of the T-90S: the hull, turret, transmission, gearbox and the running gear. Another OFB facility next door, Engine Factory, Avadi, builds the tank's 1000 HP engine. Thousands of minor parts are outsourced to local industry: electrical items, cables, starter generator, instrument panel, hardware and rubber components. According to OFB's Jain, the T-90S has been 70% indigenised; this will increase to 80% next year.

Bringing together all this parts takes 30 months. Then HVF assembles them into a tank.

 

[Ray]

Light infantry units in the People's Liberation Army (PLA) have been resurging as the PLA transforms itself into an organization that is capable of operating beyond its borders. These units were first permanently created during the reorganization of the PLA in 1954 [1]. Designed to operate in jungles and mountainous regions, the forces were equipped with limited quantities of heavy equipment, having a greater number of medium mortars, recoilless rifles and heavy machine guns in the battalion in order to compensate for the lack of supporting artillery [2]. The squad was reduced in size from twelve to nine men, which diminished the combat strength of the unit. Yet, light infantry units were compatible with the PLA's doctrinal emphasis of manpower over machinery and its emphasis on maneuverability. In addition, this allowed for the PLA's limited quantities of heavy equipment to be issued to forces facing Taiwan and later the Soviet Union. The contemporary light infantry battalion has changed little in organization over the years and its smaller size and lack of heavy supporting weapons meant few organizational changes when the light infantry became mechanized (with the addition of wheeled armored fighting vehicles) or became airmobile (with helicopters).

For high-altitude operations, the PLA, along with the militaries of the other members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), have been moving toward the Russian concept of Reconnaissance Combat Operations (RBD). Based on tactics developed during the Soviet era, the concept was refined through combat with Chechen insurgents based in mountainous regions [3]. RBD involves the extensive use of signals intelligence, helicopters and reconnaissance teams to provide intelligence for light infantry. The light infantry is then able to serve as blocking forces to ambush and halt retreating insurgents as well as provide fire coordination for long-range artillery and air support. These tactics, which coincide with the PLA's emphasis on informatization and highly mobile units, have been especially embraced by the light infantry units operating on China's western periphery composed of Tibet and Xinjiang.



The operational environment in these regions—consisting of the world's largest mountain ranges and high desert plateaus—has required that lighter forces be deployed; the terrain and the long borders are generally unsuited for large contingents of heavy armor to patrol. The PLA has equipped its mountain brigades in Tibet and the 6th Independent Division in Xinjiang—the first mechanized infantry division to be deployed at this height—with wheeled armored fighting vehicles [4].



In Tibet and Xinjiang, the PLA has fielded the indigenously produced WZ 550 four-wheeled, WZ 551 six-wheeled and WZ 525 eight-wheeled family of armored fighting vehicles. Similar in concept to the U.S. Army's Stryker light armored vehicle, various versions are available, ranging from the basic version of an armored personnel carrier with a small open turret mounted with a 12.7mm machine gun to a mortar, anti-armor and armored recovery versions [5]. In Xinjiang and Tibet, these vehicles are organized along the lines of a cavalry battalion, similar to the U.S. Army's Stryker combat brigades. In both regions, the PLA infantry operates the WZ 551A (Type 92) infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) with its one-man high elevation turret that is mounted with a 25mm automatic cannon. This turret allows WZ 551A to engage targets located high in the mountains. In addition, the ability of the 25mm cannon to penetrate light armor gives it a measure of security if it were to face light tanks.


Light infantry are also used to operate in the jungle and the paddy fields of Guangzhou and Yunnan where the terrain restricts the use of armor. When operating in networked paddy fields, the PLA plans for armor to move at the very optimistic speed of 6-10 km/hr and infantry and towed artillery at 2.5-3 km/hr [9]. The PLA has not left the light infantry bereft of armor, supplying them regiments equipped with the Type 62 light tank equipped with an 85mm gun. Introduced in the early 1960s, these regiments spearheaded China's offensive into Vietnam during the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War where the major problems of light infantry, a lack of sustainability and survivability became apparent. The Type 62 was particularly vulnerable to rocket propelled grenades and fire from anti-aircraft artillery. The Type 62 is currently being replaced in the PLA by the ZTZ-63A amphibious tank and WZ551 six-wheeled light armored fighting vehicle with a 105mm gun. These vehicles have improved firepower, speed and mobility, though at the expense of armor; both vehicles are easily penetrated by frontal heavy machine gun fire.

The Resurgence of PLA Light Infantry | The Jamestown Foundation

 

[Guest]

Every T-90 operating in the field has something missing, The tank was forced imported with a bang on media, Those who raised questions quickly silenced by former Gov moles who still existed in force ..

Light tank were essential in Arunachal areas where T-90 cannot even set foot on, The deployment of T-72 over Arunachal and Tar region are very limited areas ..

Rest of the areas are defenseless due to lack of light tanks, PLA do operated there wheeled Assault Guns in these areas ..

FMBT GSQR is till not developed by Army, Army is more interested in Arjun MK3 concept based on Proved MK1 ..

Yes each T-90S needs "extensive upgrades" even to be remotely considered as a true strike crop MBT- It won't survive even a day in town warfare at the hands of well trained enemy-

More than Arunachal I would be worried about heavier upgraded T-90S in the Silliguri corridor- the soil there is clay without gravels- I have not been to Arunachal so I cannot tell but yes wheeled or tracked ICV with small and large caliber guns along with guided weapons should be ideal choice-

And more than ICV or IFVs the need of hour is guided missiles like Javelins and Man portable Nag and CLATGM- along with MANPADs-

 

[Ray]

Yes each T-90S needs "extensive upgrades" even to be remotely considered as a true strike crop MBT- It won't survive even a day in town warfare at the hands of well trained enemy-

More than Arunachal I would be worried about heavier upgraded T-90S in the Silliguri corridor- the soil there is clay without gravels- I have not been to Arunachal so I cannot tell but yes wheeled or tracked ICV with small and large caliber guns along with guided weapons should be ideal choice-

And more than ICV or IFVs the need of hour is guided missiles like Javelins and Man portable Nag and CLATGM- along with MANPADs-

This indicates how little you know of the terrain anywhere.

Further, you have no idea of MOUT. Unless it is unavoidable no one would engage in Urban Warfare and instead circumvent it.

Check modern warfare history, especially Indian.

Since you have not been to the operational areas, either in the East or West, your contentions are academic bereft of reality.

Visit and then come back with educated comments.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Under buy and make in India, It surely can as they have already proposed ..

However Tata will not make the tank for free - nobody would.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

More like extensive ' rectification ', T-90/72 were design for European tank battles of cold war where Armour meet Armour head on, One reason you will find the Armour is mainly on frontal arc, Very or non existing on sides and rear ..

Were as Arjun which is based on Leopard can be upgraded with addons similar to what Design for leo, Such as this >>

Yes each T-90S needs "extensive upgrades" even to be remotely considered as a true strike crop MBT

 

[Hari Sud]

The heading of this thread "Indian T-90 in trouble" is making it look that a third rate piece of equipment has been acquired. It is most unsuitable for discussion on T-90 tanks.

On the contrary, it is first rate modern tank with all the bells and whistles which could be loaded on a tank. It is unfortunate that Russians did not design the tank for India. It was built as frontline tank for Russian and European fronts, hence air conditioning was unnecessary. That is not Russian fault, it is an indian army purchasers who did not see this problem. Russians do not face this problem in civilian even in civilian life hence they do not build air conditioners. That is why indian built air conditioner will be installed on these tanks. Also the old sights are being installed to install Israeli built sights. These are built desert warfare.

The problem is not the army complaining, it is immense number of "fanboys" on this forum and elsewhere who have not seen the business end of a gun, who latch on to minor issues and make them look like that the world is coming to an end. All tanks and other hardware needs a midlife upgrade. These tanks are undoing that upgrade. Newer one will be built to new specs.

T-90 does not take away versatility of Arjun 1 & 2. They both stay as frontline but with a different mission.

I suggest we change the title of this thread and proceed with the discussion.

 

[Guest]

More like extensive ' rectification ', T-90/72 were design for European tank battles of cold war where Armour meet Armour head on, One reason you will find the Armour is mainly on frontal arc, Very or non existing on sides and rear ..

Were as Arjun which is based on Leopard can be upgraded with addons similar to what Design for leo, Such as this >>

Some important points-

* Arjun mk3 would be lighter-
* 1500hp engine with separate powerpack for aux-power gen- automatic transmission-
* crew can be 3 or 4 with auto loader in bustle-
* 120mm smoothbore gun with muzzle break-
* Heavy Alloy FSAPDS Penetrator -
* The bottom of tank would be heavier like M1A2 capable of surviving IEDs-
* DRDO APS-
* CLATGM-
* Broader and thicker tracks-
* 3D printing can be used for making it-

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Back to the topic at hand >>

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.which will be developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks' existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

"DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights," said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

"The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful," Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, "The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage."

Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, "A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank."

The indigenous production of about 1,000 additional T-90s has been contracted, but production has not yet begun.

"The Russians have not provided full-scale [intellectual property rights] and are withholding some critical designs; thus, full-scale indigenization has been held up in Avadi," Bhonsle said.

An official of the Ordnance Factory Board, which administers the Avadi factory, said the Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008. â– 

Source : Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com

==================

Nov 2011 news report

T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

Here is what happened. After the T-90S contract was signed on 15th Jan 2001, the 310 made-in-Russia tanks began to flow in quickly from Uralvagonzavod, the Russian facility that builds them. But the transfer of technology (ToT) and the supply of assemblies for building the 1000 tanks in India quickly hit a Russian stonewall.

First it took one and a half years to transfer to India the ToT documents required for building the T-90S in India. The tonnes of documents that finally arrived were found to be in Russian; translating them into English took another one and a half years.

Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank's main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."

An Indian Army officer who voiced his frustration to his Russian counterparts recalls the taunting Russian response: "Starting T-72 production took you 10 years. How do you imagine that you will produce the T-90 in just 6-7 years?"

The Thales-Optronika thermal imaging night sights supplied with the T-90S --- essential for firing tank weapons at night --- proved unable to function in the blistering desert summer. This remains a problem; in 2008 the MoD approached international vendors to air-condition the T-90S.

During that crisis with Pakistan, the army also discovered that the T-90S sights were not calibrated to Indian tank ammunition, which was falling well short of the targets that it was fired at. A panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90S's fire control computer to Indian ammunition. Meanwhile, shiploads of tank rounds were ordered from Russia at great cost.

T-90S's Invar missile, earlier cited as a clinching reason for buying the tank. But the Invar missiles that came were unusable and they were quietly returned to Russia. On 2nd March 2006, Antony told Parliament, "The Invar missile on T-90 tank is not a failure. However, the completely knocked down kits received for assembly have been found to be defective."

Source : Broadsword: T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

===================

About the 345 new tanks >>

"The Army is justified in wanting the T-90MS for the China border. But it is wrong in scuttling the induction of the Arjun in Punjab and J&K. The Arjun must be given a fair chance. How can a Russian tank be given preference over an Indian one?" says a senior armoured corps general who is still in service.

Source : Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through Russian T-90 purchase | Business Standard

===================

T-90 Missile Woes

A dispute with Russia over technology transfer for the Invar anti-tank missile has prompted India's Bharat Dynamics Ltd. (BDL) to contact domestic companies to help develop the missile's critical guidance electronics.

The Russians refused to give India the technology for the guidance system for the missile, which will be fired from India's Russian-made T-90 tanks, despite agreeing to the transfer for licensed production of the missiles, according to a BDL official.

The Russians agreed to grant a license for production of the missile and the transfer of technology in August, when a US $470 million contract was signed, the BDL official said.

"Usually, the contract with the Russians, or for that matter the French Milan anti-tank guided missiles, includes transferring the production process, including the details like chemical composition and process for propellant and warhead," the official said. "However, in the case of the Invar missile, no technology transfer has been given for the laser beam-riding guidance."

Source : Gov't Turns to Indian Firms To Untangle T-90 Missile Woes | Defense News | defensenews.com

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I haven`t touched its engine issues or thermal sights during night yet in detail, Judge for yourself, the links are posted here ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Lets see, Rest of the things are already on their way ..

Some important points-

* Arjun mk3 would be lighter-
* 1500hp engine with separate powerpack for aux-power gen- automatic transmission-
* crew can be 3 or 4 with auto loader in bustle-
* 120mm smoothbore gun with muzzle break-
* DRDO APS-
* CLATGM-

 

[Hari Sud]

A very nice summary by Kunal Biswas in his post 217.

Now I am learning that Arjun Version 3 is in the cards.