Personal Ideas About Cold Start`s Problems

[pankaj nema]

Army, Air Force hold jt exercises near China border

New Delhi: With the aim of checking their preparedness, the Army and Air Force carried out a joint exercise in Assam and Arunachal Pradesh near the Chinese border last week.

Codenamed 'Operation Pralay', the three-day exercise involved all the frontline fighter aircraft, including Sukhoi, Mirage-2000, MiG-29, MiG-27 and IL-78 air-to-air refueling planes, Defence Ministry sources said here today.

Around 1,000 troops along with their Mi-17, Cheetah and Chetak helicopters also participated in the war-games, they said.

The exercise held between September 22 and 24 involved all the frontier air bases in Arunachal Pradesh and Assam, they said.

"The Army and the IAF carried out the three-day joint exercise with the aim of checking preparedness and jointness," a source said.

The exercise was co-ordinated by IAF's Shillong-based Eastern Air Command and the army's Eastern Command in Kolkata.

The exercise came in the backdrop of reports of Chinese ground and air incursions in Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh, which both the countries have been trying to downplay.

Army, Air Force hold jt exercises near China border

 

[pankaj nema]

Pak Air Force 'modifies' plans for India's Cold Start doctrine

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...ready-to-stop-Cold-Start/Article1-811443.aspx

This shows Paki wariness about CSD

Similarly The way Pakis have been showing off their NASR and BABUR missiles
it shows that Pakis are scared of CSD

 

[ersakthivel]

We have a real good chance of settling our border dispute with china thru negotiated settlement after that we have no reason to arm against eachother. But the problem with pakistan is diff. They will never understand and will never stop terror activities against India.
It is for china to decide that will they still like to get into battle with India in support of pakistan when both India & China have no issues between them?
If Yess, than what purpose will be served even if we settle the border dispute.

Pakistanis will maintain their fierce opposition to india until they find a global strong power that can back them up against india.
Once they realize there are no big powers to back them up they will settle into a nice diplomatic relationship with india .
Kashmir issue is just a figleaf for them to keep things on the boil.

Now they have realized that US and India or going to settle into a long strategic partnership so they rely on china to keep things on the boil.

If chinese settle the border issue once for all and settle into comfortable friendly relationship with india then pakis will forget their animosity to india conveniently.

Because despite the suicide bombing fringe pakis share the same culture and habits and tastes and language as us indians and they too love good life.

It is upto chinese to see peace on the south asia.

Chinese are vary of india's growing relationship with US.

Thats why they are not settling border dispute with india ,because to egg on pakistan they have to pretend that they have some insurmountable differences with india.

Otherwise this border issue is no big problem at all.Already both sides have reached a written understanding that settled populations must not be disturbed in new border realignment.

So no big issues on resolving the border dispute.

But why they are not doing it is because they are playing poker in south asia by hedging this border dispute as a reason to initiate hostilities if there is a future need and to cheer on pak into adversarial relationship with india.

But they will never take up arms against india to support pak in a war against india.

Despite the advice of Henry Kissinger in the 1972 war the chinese prefered to fight the indians to the last pakistani and nothing more.

But once in awhile they will pretend that they have a big border problem that is affecting their core interest by issuing stapled visas to J&K citizens and the wrangling in geneva over nuclear deal.

But once they get a few stern calls from washington they will fall in line,

Because chinese knows they are incapable of pushing across himalayan frontiers into india's north east once india mounts prepared defences.

And however much china develops the totla weight of EU and US will be more than china.

This can be gauged by the voting pattern of china in UN security council.It never uses veto to conclusively over turn any decisions which runs counter to US core interests.

CHina stood out till the last minute against concessions to INDIA in NSG till the last minute.
But a few phone calls from GEORGE BUSH Sr they meekly fell in line.

It will be better for the sub continent if pakistan sees through this game of bogus chinese checkers.

Big nations have big core interests.Pakistan can never hope china risk it's core interests in confrontation with India for a the sake of some silly hopes of few PAKI generals.

 

[t_co]

The geopolitical situation will not allow India and China to coexist peacefully even after an "amicable" settlement of the border issue. India is a rival for China. Well if not now, in the near future.

If two states are rivals, then what is your solution?

 

[pankaj nema]

@ All Chinese members

India has done ALL that it could do for keeping good relations with
China

That is why India HAS NOT YET embraced the USA in its NEW Asian policy

If however China wants to be antagonistic towards India then China itself will be PUSHING
India towards the USA 's Anti China Alliance

 

[t_co]

The whole idea of having a Cold start doctrine is to make Pakistan behave

The way Pakistan is PRACTICING new military manuevers in its exercises like Azm e Nau 1/2/3 AND 4
it means that PAKIS are taking this doctrine very very seriously

Constant vigilance required | The Nation

Let's look at it this way. CSD means more cash for the Indian Army, and also means more cash for the Pakistani Army. Aggressive provocation from either side does nothing except to strengthen the military and security apparatus in both nations relative to civilian institutions. That's not a recipe for peace; it's a prayer for war, that, sooner or later, will be answered in the form of megatons raining down on Indian and Pakistani cities.

There are far more civilized and effective ways of dealing with another country than by threatening to invade them if they sponsor a terrorist group against you. Foremost among them would be strengthening Pakistani institutions that favor a peaceful resolution of Indo-Pak disputes via trade and dialogue, rather than strengthening the Pakistani institutions that want use force against India (the Army and the ISI). Pakistan would be extremely happy to join India in economic growth, so why not open the Indian market to Pakistani goods, and tie the health of the Pakistani economy to the health of India? Then, once those ties are in place, India can exert effective influence without having to spend billions on a military that essentially sits there and does nothing apart from making its neighbor feel more and more inclined to press the big red button.

 

[pankaj nema]

Let's look at it this way. CSD means more cash for the Indian Army, and also means more cash for the Pakistani Army. Aggressive provocation from either side does nothing except to strengthen the military and security apparatus in both nations relative to civilian institutions. That's not a recipe for peace; it's a prayer for war, that, sooner or later, will be answered in the form of megatons raining down on Indian and Pakistani cities.

There are far more civilized and effective ways of dealing with another country than by threatening to invade them if they sponsor a terrorist group against you. Foremost among them would be strengthening Pakistani institutions that favor a peaceful resolution of Indo-Pak disputes via trade and dialogue, rather than strengthening the Pakistani institutions that want use force against India (the Army and the ISI). Pakistan would be extremely happy to join India in economic growth, so why not open the Indian market to Pakistani goods, and tie the health of the Pakistani economy to the health of India? Then, once those ties are in place, India can exert effective influence without having to spend billions on a military that essentially sits there and does nothing apart from making its neighbor feel more and more inclined to press the big red button.

You have your heart in the right place but you are NOT AWARE of the true nature
of the BEAST that is Pakistan

Pakis cannot be " won over " by things like trade ; culture sports etc etc

For keeping them in line you need a VERY BIG STICK

 

[pankaj nema]

@ T_ CO

The paki trick of Nuclear Blackmail will Not work again

And the way Pakis have discredited themselves with the entire western world
has even further reduced their so called strategic leverage

So much so that even China is wary of the growing Talbanisation of Pakistan

And what makes you think that NATO will FORGIVE Pakistan for its treachery
after 2014

 

[pankaj nema]

@ T_ CO

Paki obsession with HURTING India and SPOILING USA's Afghan Campaign
means that Pakis have lost their biggest ally since 1947 ie USA

Now Pakis HOPE THAT China will keep Financing its Anti India activities

So ultimately How the Pakis behave in future depends on whether China bails out the Pakis
from their economic troubles

 

[pankaj nema]

Pakistan passing through critical phase of history: Kayani

AN excerpt :

The COAS said," Today, we are pitched against an amorphous enemy [ READ : OUR own self created MONSTERS ]
when the conventional threat has also grown manifold." [ READ : INDIA ]

Pakistan passing through critical phase of history: Kayani | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

 

[ersakthivel]

You are wrong on so many levels that it is simply amazing.

1. That is because just six months after the sanctions were announced, the United States had lifted virtually all of them.

the reason they lifted it is they recognized that india has no other go then having nuclear weapons because china has them
And INDIAN nuclear weapons present no threat to the core interests of western nations.
On the contrary they saw india as vital for peace in ASIA.
Please go through STROBE TALLBOT-JASWANT SINGH dialogue which culminated in
Next steps in strategic relations and then culminated in India-US nuclear deal which gave global recognition to india's status as world power.
The nuclear tests sanctions and INDO-US nuclear deal are the events that announced the arrival of india in world stage.

The sanctions would have had greater effect if they had remained in place for several years and thereby affected significantly not just the commitments but also the disbursements of official creditors such as the World Bank.

In Pakistans case, a decade of economic mismanagement had left them heavily dependent on the IMF. When the US-led coalition withheld IMF support, the resulting collapse of confidence created a balance of payments crisis and a significant decline in economic activity.

When the Glenn Amendment sanctions were imposed, the Pakistani economy was extremely vulnerable to the loss of support from
the IMF and other IFIs. As stated by an Economist Intelligence Unit report: "Economic mismanagement, fiscal profligacy, rising bank defaults and high levels of corruption in the last ten years [before the bomb tests] have played havoc with Pakistan's economy"¦. On the eve
of Pakistan's nuclear test, the economy was already only limping along.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:26ccNSXwH0QJ:cns.miis.edu/npr/pdfs/morrow64.pdf+impact+on+indian+economy+after+economic+sanctions&hl=no&gl=no&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgRBcMA5f_olqsH8rwHpxW_aSurPr962axaU-4eRFoOzi8zOGIwSMMcNmknq5HydOqsLpxeySZJg8kF0R5eR__eFOve89ewx73PLyTsKrmzeQowMJ8n83y0idVElD0VS3EwKAUE&sig=AHIEtbTh2mGeGV5thahK43MYf57lI3IOtQ

2. China is NOT an export driven economy. She is an investment driven economy. Learn the difference first.

All the investments comming into china are for the sole reason of exporting from china.

3. India is still receiving aid from other nations. US, UK, Japan among them.

They give this aid to service their core interest here.India has asked them to stop it if they wanted after the ruckus over typhoon selection over rafale in MMRCA and every thing quietened there after.
Japan's dvelopmental assistance to india in the form of soft loans is also strategic investment of their export surplus and for furture strategic relationship with india
I have read somewhere only a couple of years before the chinese were the largest recievers of JAPAN's soft loans.Do you deny it?

4. India dont need world for your survival? Horse shit! What happends to India when no one outsource to your IT industry? How is your economy gonna survive without oil? Heavy machinery? Weapons? Dont be absurd, you are miles away from be self sufficient.

The world needs india ten times more to counter balance some middle kingdom fantasy addicts.
So the dependance is mutual.

5. The rest is just mumbo jumbos from you. If taken Tibet from China is a child play, you would done that long time ago.
You tried and failed. End of story. No need to put a brave face on that.

No country is self sufficient in today's globalized world save a few isolated settlements of ESKIMOs.

 

[pankaj nema]

Pakistan is heading for VERY INTERESTING Times

1 ALL the Religious Sectarian outfits are NOW firmly focussed on capturing as much territory
and power thereby reducing PA 's importance in the domestic power set up in Pakistan

2 Afghanistan is NOW hitting back hard at the Pakis

3 NATO is pissed off with the Pakis

4 Economy is bankrupt

5 India is getting stronger

6 China is getting FED UP with the Pakis

 

[ersakthivel]

Pakistan passing through critical phase of history: Kayani

AN excerpt :

The COAS said," Today, we are pitched against an amorphous enemy [ READ : OUR own self created MONSTERS ]
when the conventional threat has also grown manifold." [ READ : INDIA

Pakistan passing through critical phase of history: Kayani | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

And the ilk of KAYANi are symptoms of the problem .not the cure that is the irony.
For pakistani citizens the ilk of KAYANi are like RICHARD PARKER to PI PATEL in the movie life of PIE.

 

[ersakthivel]

If Pakistan hasn't launched yet, and India makes pre-emptive nuclear strikes on Pakistan on top of mobilizing for a surprise ground invasion of Pakistan, India would have won the battle, but lost the war--India would be as ostracized as North Korea and its rise would be impossibly curtailed. Rage, WG Ewald, or any other US poster would no doubt agree.

this is the whole idea of chinese communist followers. Egg pakistan on relentlessly to go to war with india ,giving false scenario updates.

But the chinese themselves are sitting quiet across the taiwan staits content to launch thousands of dumb missiles in excercises careful enough not to hit the tiniest of taiwanese sparrow.

If you ask them they will say china is not going to war because it wants peaceful raise.
But when it comes to pakistan even against the face of supreme stupidity they will egg on a smaller pakistan by saying the cold start doctrine is in efficient.

How does pakistan hits supply dumps in forward posts if these posts are guarded by missile defences
Most of the junk missiles operated by pakis are out dated and can be easily intercepted in a decades time of development by india.

 

[ersakthivel]

Let's look at it this way. CSD means more cash for the Indian Army, and also means more cash for the Pakistani Army. Aggressive provocation from either side does nothing except to strengthen the military and security apparatus in both nations relative to civilian institutions. That's not a recipe for peace; it's a prayer for war, that, sooner or later, will be answered in the form of megatons raining down on Indian and Pakistani cities.

There are far more civilized and effective ways of dealing with another country than by threatening to invade them if they sponsor a terrorist group against you.

So you want us to follow the GANDHIAN principle in this regard.What principles are you following in TIBET?
Say if India transfers 10 billion dollars free of cost for every year from now on will PAKISTAN stop sending terrorist groups.
No. Because US gave more money than that and F-16s and arms .Still PAKISTAN is harbouring OSAMA and sending terrorists to kill US soldiers.Have you ever heard of that.
So will you advice OBAMA to stp drone attack like IMRAN TERRORIST KHAN is doing by conducting massive rallies, and ask US to do more trade with pak and give more aid to Pakistan.You can try that.Obama too seems to be a liberal at heart.

you could have used these effective ways before invading TIBET.You could have strengthened institutions of DALAI LAMA and not used force against them.Even now it is not too late. Many tibetinan monks are immolating themselves.Why can't china strenghten their institutions and walk away from TIBET?

Foremost among them would be strengthening Pakistani institutions that favor a peaceful resolution of Indo-Pak disputes via trade and dialogue, rather than strengthening the Pakistani institutions that want use force against India (the Army and the ISI). Pakistan would be extremely happy to join India in economic growth, so why not open the Indian market to Pakistani goods, and tie the health of the Pakistani economy to the health of India? Then, once those ties are in place, India can exert effective influence without having to spend billions on a military that essentially sits there and does nothing apart from making its neighbor feel more and more inclined to press the big red button.

India has already initiated trade relations with Pakistan.And it is pakistan which is sulking to broaden trade relations with india.
China too could stop deploying aircraft careers and nuclear armed submarines because they are having a good trade relationship with US by the same logic.
Why spend billion on things that just float under water or over water.
First follow the advice you give to the world before lecturing to them.

Do you know what CSD really means it is shivering balls for pakistani generals like MUSHARAF who will be tempted in the future to commit some aimless perfidy to shore up their position in pakistani power structure.

The avowed aim of cold start is not to destroy pakistan or to fight a prolonged war.But to impose heavy cost in men and material if nefarious designs are advanced by pakistan.
If the war finishes shortly pakistan cannot threaten nuclear exchange as their viability to exist as a nation will not be challenged.
And these generals will be caught with their pants down before pakistani public and exposed for the perfidy.
It is in effect an insurance policy for deterent effect to future mischief mongers.
Why this was chosen?
Because operation PARAKRAM the mobilization by BJP regime after parliamentary attack exposed india to immediate international pressure due to the time taken to mobilze.So pakistanis some how wriggled out of a tough situation.
To avoid that in future this strategy is a must for any swift response for any self respecting nation not to be cowed down by a few bunch of barbarians across the border..

 

[ersakthivel]

Tactical nukes will be delivered by cruise missiles only.
cruise missiles could be tackled by the present AKASH missile batteries themselves.So hitting forward supply dumps will be tough for pakistan.Pakistan is no US to carry out surgical strikes.whatever argument they advance it is beyond their capacity.

If pakistan uses ballistic missiles india may mistake it for nuclear strike on indian cities and respond accordingly.
So any idea of surgical pakistani missile strike on forward areas with tactical nukes is a full monty idea.

If Pakistanis are so convinced why didn't they resort to tactical nuclear strike on indian forward positions in kargil war?

They didn't even send their F-16s to scramble MIRAGE-2000s which were roasting their own soldiers with laser guided bombs.

Heck,they didn't even accept the body of their own dead soldiers for proper burial.

With such bravery any "TACTICAL NUCLEAR STRIKES ON FORWARD INDIAN POSITION' is goose talk.

It is a ploy used by few people to misguide the lay persons to make them believe Indian CSD can be countered by tactical nuclear strike.

 

[SPIEZ]

cruise missiles could be tackled by the present AKASH missile batteries themselves.So hitting forward supply dumps will be tough for pakistan.

Of course the big problem would be detecting them first.

If you would note there are few threads on large open areas without radar cover.

Add to that if a NUKE CRUISE MISSILE IS INTERCEPTED A FEW KMS ABOve ground LEVEL/SEALEVEL, it would do more damage than a blast at sea level.

 

[ersakthivel]

Of course the big problem would be detecting them first.

If you would note there are few threads on large open areas without radar cover.

Add to that if a NUKE CRUISE MISSILE IS INTERCEPTED A FEW KMS ABOve ground LEVEL/SEALEVEL, it would do more damage than a blast at sea level.

That is for strategic nuclear weapons with megaton yields and not for tactical nuclear weapons.

If we have to apply CSD then we should give akash cover or missile interceptor cover to forward supply areas and armored units.

See people talk about using nuclear tactical weapons all the time.But they wont. Why?
because no one can be sure how many extra tactical nukes the other side will unleash.
So brave talk can be carried on in peace time,not in war time

 

[SPIEZ]

that is for strategic nuclear weapons with megaton yields and not for tactical nuclear weapons.

See people talk about using nuclear tactical weapons all the time.But they wont. Why?
because no one can be sure how many extra tactical nukes the other side will unleash.
So brave talk can be carried on in peace time,not in war time

So what exactly are tactical nukes?

We all knew what a few kilotons could do to Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

What surety would be there that a nuke 9tactical or not) would not be used?

 

[ersakthivel]

I'm not sure Mumbai was the direct work of Pakistan. Did Pakistan fund L-e-T? Sure. But did Pakistan tell L-e-T "hey go shoot up a bunch of Mumbai hotels filled with Westerners?" Where's the evidence of the order?

there are some fanatic People world over who claim that 9/11 was the work of israeli MOSSAD.Do you believe them?