Personal Ideas About Cold Start`s Problems

sayareakd

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i dont think China would come to Pakistan's help if told that any attempt to put Chinese military against us will be result in activation of our nukes on Chinese cities (means its capital, financial capital and industrial heart land). As far as Pak going nuke against us, IA has already practising working under nuke enviroment, we will counter Pak and i am sure all problems with Pak will be put to rest once in for all.
Even majority also think that if attack with nukes, we will make sure it will be ceased to exists as nation.
 

Bhadra

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question is how will india go deep inside pak?

penetrating close to millions soldiers and thousand of tanks and supported hardware?

it isnt that easy
That will be very advantegious for Indian Forces....

A chance to destroy Pakistani forces in mass in decisive battles....

Decimate Pakistani combat power....
 

bose

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Pakistan has now gone in a defensive mind set... only wants to contain India... So it uses the Nuclear bogey but the point is no one has dared to use such thing against any nuclear states in modern history,... so this bogey will also die its natural death...
 

Shirman

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Er, I read an earlier statement by @ersakthivel about how the Arjun tank had a special sabot round capable of taking down a Merkava at 2km, but the most recent APFSDS round shown in the DRDO exhibit only displays 300mm RHAe penetration at 2km. Why?
I Asked my sources about that round and they said it was the proposed round in circa 1986 (During General Zia-UL-HAQ era when he and Pakis were evaluating XM Series of Abrams tank...) DRDO Cloned some "Sample Rounds from West Germany ". Since we r talking abt an incident dating during the cold war era the Germans only provided the external details n hence the penetration is very less. The rounds r naturally not accepted in the army. This along with other Photos r just taken at an exhibition In Kolkatta which showcases the variety of products and achievements the said org ie- DRDO had achieved in present and past.......And don't worry When the war do take place the Armed forces will send its C-130s, Il-76s, C-17s Sukhoi/Hal MTAs to fetch advance rounds, 120 mm Smoothbore Guns and other war materials to save India from defeat Just like how Iran did during Iran-Iraq War....:rolleyes::p
 
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t_co

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

I Asked my sources about that round and they said it was the proposed round in circa 1986 (During General Zia-UL-HAQ era when he and Pakis were evaluating XM Series of Abrams tank...) DRDO Cloned some "Sample Rounds from West Germany ". Since we r talking abt an incident dating during the cold war era the Germans only provided the external details n hence the penetration is very less. The rounds r naturally not accepted in the army. This along with other Photos r just taken at an exhibition In Kolkatta which showcases the variety of products and achievements the said org ie- DRDO had achieved in present and past.......And don't worry When the war do take place the Armed forces will send its C-130s, Il-76s, C-17s Sukhoi/Hal MTAs to fetch advance rounds, 120 mm Smoothbore Guns and other war materials to save India from defeat Just like how Iran did during Iran-Iraq War....:rolleyes::p
Unless India's CSD fails and Pakistan still refuses to negotiate after 5 days of fighting, then the war wouldn't last long enough for the short-notice deliveries of advanced foreign tank rounds to reach the battlefield.

Also, using the 120mm APFSDS round to kill APCs is a waste; those vehicles are what HESH and HEAT rounds are for, since they cause more antipersonnel damage to the crew/infantry inside than a saboted round would.
 

Shirman

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Unless India's CSD fails and Pakistan still refuses to negotiate after 5 days of fighting, then the war wouldn't last long enough for the short-notice deliveries of advanced foreign tank rounds to reach the battlefield.

Also, using the 120mm APFSDS round to kill APCs is a waste; those vehicles are what HESH and HEAT rounds are for, since they cause more antipersonnel damage to the crew/infantry inside than a saboted round would.


Well Sir nor i am the chief strategist / Tactician for the Indian armed forces nor i envision the war taking place between India-Pak-PRC since all of them r nuclear powers. It was just my lazy guess looking at the present Indian armed forces preparedness.. I have only seen upto now India's Counter insurgency role Vis-a-Vis "Proxy War " specialist Pakistan

And if i were u i wont under estimate 120mm APFSDS NATO rounds or Kinetic Energy rounds especially if they have high penetrating capabilities.......

1 Question though whats' CSD stands for :confused2:???????????
 
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t_co

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[/COLOR][/I][/B]

Well Sir nor i am the chief strategist / Tactician for the Indian armed forces nor i envision the war taking place between India-Pak-PRC since all of them r nuclear powers. It was just my lazy guess looking at the present Indian armed forces preparedness.. I have only seen upto now India's Counter insurgency role Vis-a-Vis "Proxy War " specialist Pakistan

And if i were u i wont under estimate 120mm APFSDS NATO rounds or Kinetic Energy rounds especially if they have high penetrating capabilities.......

1 Question though whats' CSD stands for :confused2:???????????
CSD = Cold Start Doctrine

As for the APFSDS, the reason they're a waste is because they're overkill in terms of armor penetration, and they're not as damaging to folks inside as an explosive shell. When an APFSDS round hits a soft-skinned vehicle, it usually goes straight through and transfers most of the kinetic energy into something behind it.
 

Singh

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question is how will india go deep inside pak?

penetrating close to millions soldiers and thousand of tanks and supported hardware?

it isnt that easy
How "deep" is Pakistan ?

The aim is not to capture, or have epic battles, but to gain enough ground and to cut off logistics to force Pak on the negotiating table.
 

rock127

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1000s troops and tanks exposed to sort of Air-strike, Balletic / Supersonic Cruise missiles etc ..

Latest gadgets, pffff...........
Nothing better than a disillusional enemy always overestimating themselves. :lol:
 

rock127

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And
*Was thousand miles far from west pakistan
*were already in civil war
*surrounded by india from all sides and surrrounded by bangladesh's as well
*nthing could be supplied

and many more

in the next possible war.there wont be anything as such
Pakis always making lame excuses for losing war... oh in that war we didnt have this... oh in that war we didnt have that....in Kargil what happened idiot??? Your Army proved to be such a coward when India esclated by using AF... what happened to your super dooper pooper PAF which you always claim to be the best in the universe :lol: Dont come back with that lame 5353 crap :lol:

This time you are surrounded by a lethal "enemy" on the western border known as Afganistan...remember Afgans are not Bangladeshis they would thrash you back pretty badly on their own and cross Durand Line and get back their ancestoral land which they deserve.You would be sandwitched between Afganistan and India again and navy would block your sea.There might be few raids from Tajikistan as our former airbase might be reopened for some time.

PLUS... you are already in civil war again ... so Baluchistan issue,Shias genocide,crumbling economy are BIG factors.
 

t_co

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How "deep" is Pakistan ?

The aim is not to capture, or have epic battles, but to gain enough ground and to cut off logistics to force Pak on the negotiating table.
That's a nonsensical aim, since Pakistan's own combat doctrine would favor nukes over negotiation
 

Singh

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That's a nonsensical aim, since Pakistan's own combat doctrine would favor nukes over negotiation
The aim is to work below paks nuke thresold, otherwise there is always Mad. For India a victory would be whole of Pak deatroyed and loss of NW India woukd be afceptable.
 

t_co

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The aim is to work below paks nuke thresold, otherwise there is always Mad. For India a victory would be whole of Pak deatroyed and loss of NW India woukd be afceptable.
110 nuclear warheads will lead to the loss of more than just NW India...
 
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110 nuclear warheads will lead to the loss of more than just NW India...
Since you are on an expert on pakistani nukes what is the kiloton range of the warheads?
I have not seen any reports of more than 10 kilotons if you have can you post a link?
 

Decklander

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Since you are on an expert on pakistani nukes what is the kiloton range of the warheads?
I have not seen any reports of more than 10 kilotons if you have can you post a link?
China and Pakistan suffer from concentration of population in only few areas. Whole of china can be taken out by just attacking few of their cities in east coast just like Pakistan wherein we can target only Sindh and Punjab to kill over 80% of the population. Chinese must remember that. 1962 happened when we trusted China. We don't trust them anymore. So their will be no 1962 but 1971, china will loose Tibet and with that their entire nuke force as that is where they have kept them.
 

Singh

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110 nuclear warheads will lead to the loss of more than just NW India...
Does Pakistan have 100 nuclear warhead armed missiles ready ?
During Cold Start, if India thinks Pakistan is going to panic, we will discard NFU policy and mount a massive nuclear response to a perceived Pakistani response.(my understanding)
 

hit&run

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Since you are on an expert on pakistani nukes what is the kiloton range of the warheads?
I have not seen any reports of more than 10 kilotons if you have can you post a link?
Come on, don't tell me that you do not know the yield of NoKo duds.:p
 

t_co

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China and Pakistan suffer from concentration of population in only few areas. Whole of china can be taken out by just attacking few of their cities in east coast just like Pakistan wherein we can target only Sindh and Punjab to kill over 80% of the population. Chinese must remember that. 1962 happened when we trusted China. We don't trust them anymore. So their will be no 1962 but 1971, china will loose Tibet and with that their entire nuke force as that is where they have kept them.
Russia and the United States are the only two nations that can do a credible countervalue strike against China.

China has over 660 cities with more than 200,000 people (300 cities with over a million); most of them sprawling manufacturing hubs linked via excellent infrastructure. They're spread out over 40% of China's landmass (an area about the size of the entire country of India :lol:). India has 120 nukes, of which a sizeable quantity would be aimed at Pakistan; what's more, India is adding long-range ballistic missiles at about the same rate China is adding advanced S-300 and S-400 ABM systems, which means its paltry response would be diluted even further. At most, maybe 20 or 30 Indian could land on China. China, from bases in Sichuan, Gansu, and Anhui (not in Tibet) could dump over 300 nuclear warheads on India if it so chose to do so--this, on top of whatever nukes Pakistan launches towards India.

In short: in an Indo-Pak nuclear confict, India will be bending over backwards to keep China from intervening, because a Chinese intervention would lead to instant annihilation of India as a functioning state--and I doubt Russia or the United States would punish China for responding to an Indian first strike.
 

t_co

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Does Pakistan have 100 nuclear warhead armed missiles ready ?
During Cold Start, if India thinks Pakistan is going to panic, we will discard NFU policy and mount a massive nuclear response to a perceived Pakistani response.(my understanding)
The issue is, there is no sort of advantage India could gain that could tilt the negotiating odds in its favor that would not induce panic in Pakistan. Pakistan's own General Staff has already signalled as much, given that they're delegating nuclear firing authority to corps-level commanders in the event of a general conflict. Ergo, the logic of CSD is self-defeating. That's what I've been trying to say for the past 20 pages, but it still seems some commenters believe they can have the cake of an "advantageous negotiating position" and eat the cake of "keeping the conflict non-nuclear". They can't. You either go heavy, or not at all.

Is India willing to risk nuclear war to punish Pakistan for a terrorist attack? That's the question India's policymakers need to answer.
 

asianobserve

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The aim is to work below paks nuke thresold, otherwise there is always Mad. For India a victory would be whole of Pak deatroyed and loss of NW India woukd be afceptable.
This calculation is fraught with risks. In fact I don't think any reasonable democratic country will hinge the lives of millions of its population on a calculation that the other country will not lash out and throw at you everything it has if you invade it...
 

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