Pak army repeats Kargil in Keran

[ladder]

J&K: 3 infiltration bids foiled along the LoC in 24 hours

Srinagar: Indian Army on Friday foiled an infiltration bid in Gujjardur area near Shallabattu in Jammu. Two infiltrators have been killed in the incident. This is third ceasefire violation by Pakistan along the Line of Control in 24 hours with two being reported from Jammu alone. Another ceasefire violation on international border in Hiranagar area of Samba sector took place on Thurday where the Pakistan rangers targeted the Pahadpur post of BSF. The BSF fired in retaliation and foiled the infiltration bid. Infiltration bids were foiled by the Army in Gujjardur, Samba and Hiranagar areas in the last 24 hours. In Poonch too, the Pakistani troops opened fire on Indian posts at around 6:30 pm on Thursday. Indian troops guarding the border retaliated with the same calibre weaponry, which resulted in a 20 minute gunbattle.

Read more at: J&K: 3 infiltration bids foiled along the LoC in 24 hours

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[happy]

If the theatre of operations is expanding it is best to bomb forward posts of pok

 

[DivineHeretic]

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Is it normal to press into action two brigades for this kind of operation? Or something on larger scale is happening than it has been declared?

Usually up to a brigade will be mobilized when operating in such rough terrain. Considering that the current group is anything but normal in size or composition, the army has most definitely taken the cautious route by pressing two brigades into combat.

However having said that, I doubt the two brigades have been tasked with direct combat. The number of troop engaging in combat will be much less, with the rest being assigned cordon duty and/or reserves

 

[maomao]

Why blame the IA when we know how honest, non-secular and nationalistic the con-gress led GOI is. The aim of con-gress is nation first not secularism first.

 

[Compersion]

The president said that non state actors do not come from heaven with the following quote:

"

Non-state actors are not coming from heaven... Non-state actors are coming from territory under your control," he said adding that in 2004 itself "Pakistan has agreed that its territories will not be allowed to be used by forces inimical to India".

I would like to evolve that by saying:

"Non-state actors are not coming from heaven... Non-state actors are coming from territory that is not under Pakistan control," "Pakistan has agreed that its territories will not be allowed to be used by forces inimical to India". If Pakistan has inability to control its own areas we have right to take measures to bring control to prevent non state actors coming from that direction.

How can we determine if Pakistan does not have territory under its control. We look at the political environment, demographically and the fact that Non state actors are coming across the loc. state actors come across territory that is under its control. Non state actors (intermittently) come across territory under control. But non state actors that come across systematically determine that where they are coming from is not having proper control. That's why they continue to come across and even more if the following has been said "Pakistan has agreed that its territories (under its control) will not be allowed to be used by forces inimical to India". This approach is supported by international law. It has been used by the comity of nations.

I would like to evolve that even more by saying If pakistan cannot control its own territory and area (pok) and allow terrorist and non-state actors to come into our territory we have the right to respond to the Pakistani support fire in a proportionate manner to prevent such actions occurring again (we can use artillery) . If they have infrastructure unable to control their area get out of our way we want to stop these non state actors and terrorists.

A single terrorist that enters needs a response to create a deterrence by damaging Pakistani army infrastructure within a certain range of 10-20 km. Infrastructure that is unable to control non state actors, a terrorists, state actors etc might as well not be there to allow us better visibility and management of such areas. Pakistan seems it is convincingly telling everyone that it's area is not under its control. If they cannot control their own territory (if they say they are not complicit). We have the right to aim our weapons a little more forward beyond the loc for self defence. I am not suggesting 100 km inside but 10 - 20 km inside. After all Pakistan has inability to control that area that's what we can conclude if they say they are non state actors.

If Pakistan does not admit they are state backed actors. They are non state actors coming from territory they do not have control.

We have to evolve our approach. If these jerks are flaming up the border to determine and increase the importance and validity of the Pakistan army we have to be able to make a new trajectory with our own rules.

 

[Yusuf]

surely traitors are infiltrated but if we specify we become communal

Do you know most of the people caught honey trapped, leaking national security info are not Muslims?

 

[Yusuf]

Oh but we shouldn't take action, because that would be a "communal" thing to do.

Ranting Sir?

 

[JBH22]

Do you know most of the people caught honey trapped, leaking national security info are not Muslims?

Actually the treason is 2 stage;

army,intelligence people- mostly hindus,sikhs (refer to the Gorshkov deal the commodore was honey trapped)

Terror attacks: Mostly Muslims.

Its only people with vested interests. Though I agree people cannot be painted in same brush

 

[ladder]

Keran encounter, Day 12: Four terrorists killed

Srinagar: Four terrorists were killed after yet another infiltration bid was foiled along the Line of Control (LoC) in Keran sector on Saturday.

Large cache of arms and ammunitions, including six AK 47 rifles, have been recovered from the possession of the terrorists who had infiltrated into Fatehgali area.


Three terrorists were killed along the LoC on Friday. AK 47s, four pistols, one radio set were recovered along the bodies.

The infiltration bid was foiled after a two-hour gun battle took place between the Army and terrorists. Search operations are on in the area to look for any other terrorist.

The Indian Army has been battling around 40 terrorists continuously from the past 12 days in the Keran sector.

A Pakistani intruder was injured in an exchange of fire along the International Border (IB) after a suspicious movement was noticed near Paharpur outpost in Kathua district of Jammu and Kashmir on Friday.

Keran encounter, Day 12: Four terrorists killed


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Even their diversionary tactics is not working.

IA is practically hunting them down.

 

[Sunder singh]

what is the acctual no of terrorist killed till Any idea?

 

[ladder]

what is the acctual no of terrorist killed till Any idea?

Army had claimed 12-15 terrorists have been killed but no body or arms and ammunition have been recovered.

In 2 separate incidents in nearby sector ( infiltration as diversionary tactics) 3+4 terrorists have been killed.
Two bodies have been recovered in the first case ( one lying across LOC)
4 terrorists were killed and 6 AK rifles and ammunition recovered in a second incident.

 

[Ray]

What is important is not the terrorists, but restoring control of that area.

As I had said earlier that area being sparsely populated is out of the 'radar' of all and so they could come in.

Further, it is an area that is mountainous and forested and the going is very difficult.

It has not happened in Keran but in the mountainous and forested areas, well beyond Keran!

 

[Blackwater]

Actually the treason is 2 stage;

army,intelligence people- mostly hindus,sikhs (refer to the Gorshkov deal the commodore was honey trapped)

Terror attacks: Mostly Muslims.

Its only people with vested interests. Though I agree people cannot be painted in same brush

 

[captonjohn]

it is not about having balls, it is to the fact that Pakistan has got govt, which is not in favor of its military be given undue funding. So they are just keeping the pot boil, to get more funding and to paint India as its enemy.

They are basically doing this for their very survival, without money their army cant survive for long.

This is not that much simple as it appears. Recent Pakistani intrusions and this kind of infiltration with special ops is indicating towards something else. There is something cooking inside Pakistan and this is just experiments to test Indian defense readiness and responses that would define their actions in future. It's obvious to test your enemy with various points so that you can plant a full scale war in future and prepare based on it.

 

[captonjohn]

I have served there and with the little knowledge I have, it is a very difficult area and it depends as to where exactly the terrorists are. I will also concede that my stay here was for a limited period, being a reserve battalion with other tasks too.

If you see Kuwara or even Keran, it appears fine, but as you go up, it get more rugged, mountainous, sparse populated and forested.

Ray,

A little off topic but I feel that all these infiltrations and operations against India is not just coincidence. All these are going on a very planned manner and indicating towards something big is coming. May be in shape of another Kargil or another war. I would like your views on this point.

 

[happy]

This is not that much simple as it appears. Recent Pakistani intrusions and this kind of infiltration with special ops is indicating towards something else. There is something cooking inside Pakistan and this is just experiments to test Indian defense readiness and responses that would define their actions in future. It's obvious to test your enemy with various points so that you can plant a full scale war in future and prepare based on it.

Maybe, considering the sudden rise in incursions.

 

[jmj_overlord]

This is not that much simple as it appears. Recent Pakistani intrusions and this kind of infiltration with special ops is indicating towards something else. There is something cooking inside Pakistan and this is just experiments to test Indian defense readiness and responses that would define their actions in future. It's obvious to test your enemy with various points so that you can plant a full scale war in future and prepare based on it.

maybe you are right. These might be test for any weakness in the defense of the army. Have such large scale incursions happened before ? anyone ?

 

[Ray]

Ray,

A little off topic but I feel that all these infiltrations and operations against India is not just coincidence. All these are going on a very planned manner and indicating towards something big is coming. May be in shape of another Kargil or another war. I would like your views on this point.

Infiltration has been a mode that Pakistan has been practising for years

Op Gibraltar possibly is the first of its acts.

It is said that the 1987 election, in which Farook Abdullah won is the catalyst that started of real militancy/ terrorism in Kashmir. The Muslim United Front (MUF) accused that the elections have been rigged. The insurgency in the valley increased in momentum from this point on, given the consistent failure of democracy and limited employment opportunities. The MUF candidate Mohammad Yousuf Shah (later called Syed Salahuddin, chief of militant outfit Hizb-ul-Mujahedin) felt not only cheated in the rigged elections, but also was imprisoned. His election aides called the HAJY group -Abdul Hamid Shaikh, Ashfaq Majid Wani, Javed Ahmed Mir and Mohammed Yasin Malik joined the JKLF.

Amanullah Khan who took refuge in Pakistan, after being deported from England began directing operations across the LC and used young disaffected Kashmiris in the Valley such as the HAJY group by recruiting them into the JKLF.

Infiltration and terrorism took a new meaning but had not reached the crescendo. New Delhi took it in its stride without realising the gravity and effect of these infiltration that it would have on the Nation.

It is only after the end of the Afghanistan Action against the Soviets in 1989, when many battled hardened' terrorists found themselves ''unemployed", they were funnelled into Kashmir to wage jihad did terrorism become a serious threat to India. New Delhi awoke from their slumber.

Thereafter, what happened and is happening requires no recalling.

In short, infiltration was always there, but the seriousness of such infiltration affecting the Nation has now become alarming; Kargil is a case in point of the extreme threat where the Pakistan military can take recourse to capturing territory under the cover of it being 'spontaneous' outburst of 'non State actors'.

The moot point of what is happening in the Keran Sector is too early to judge if it an attempt like Kargil. Not much of information is available to draw that conclusion.

However, it has to be conceded that in this Keran Sector, unlike Kargil, which has no cover, either along the spines or the valleys, and so movement could be detected at a distance, Keran Sector has forest cover and is more rugged and so movement is difficult to detect and so is of advantage to those who wish to create mischief. And so the combat will be more fierce and messy. Like Kargil roads are practically non existent and tracks are few and most are not motorable.

Whatever it maybe, if the push converts to a shove, then the IA will ensure that they shove well and hard.

Are bigger things to come, as you sugggest?

Possible.

History repeats itself, as they say.

What happened after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan wherein terrorists found themselves unemployed and were reassigned to Kashmir, the same can happen once the Americans withdraw from Afghanistan.

We have to be on our guard and the LC should be picquetted further with more motorable roads being cut through initially by Army field engineers and later by the Border Road.

Artillery deployment areas should also be constructed by cutting down a wee bit of forest and the mountains hewed to accommodate the guns!

 

[Ray]

Personally speaking, I find the situation that the Pakistanis and Chinese are creating most disturbing.

All this Nawaz Sharif's 'peace' cooing and MMS falling prey like a love lorn teenager indicates that those in Delhi are clueless in both diplomacy and matters military. They simply are refusing to read the tea leaves.

To my mind, China and Pakistan are acting in concert.

While MMS is dreaming of Gah, Pakistan, as Drake (in Drake's Drum) is dreaming of Plymouth Hoe, and not being a politician is getting befooled, and at the same time, our good man the lalten ( lantern,) Kurshed is finding acnes on his smooth face, when he should be more concerned of fistulas and haemorrhoids that are derivatives on the bottom being kicked too many times by the Pakistanis and Chinese.

Saint Anthony, our saintly Defence Minister, caring more for his reputation and doing nothing to clean the procurement system instead, has left the military crippled. Even if he wakes up from his holy silence of wisdom through blissful meditation infused zombie like experience, nothing can happen. India has no money is the grim reality.

Therefore, India might as well learn Urdu and Mandarin.

 

[natarajan]

Do you know most of the people caught honey trapped, leaking national security info are not Muslims?

I never used religion,but the way you come up shows you understand in such a way,anyway they are in meager numbers